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Hey Marik, I've been considering undertaking something similar to this, and you've been great inspiration. The Chapter Creator is a lot of fun too!

So far my thoughts involve the standard, limited TDA, clan influenced org swaps, Dred HQ ideas, and more access to Tech marines.

But I wanted to get your input on some other ideas.

-I was thinking of keeping combat squads but dropping combat tactics. Not exactly the most sensible of Smurfs after all.

- 1st level bionics would translate to +6 FNP and invulnerable save, it would also mean that the squad has to roll twice and pick lowest on run rolls, consolidations and sweeps.

Not sure how much more units should cost because of it.

- 2nd level of bionics would grant normal FNP as well as the +6 invulnerable save.

-Any level of bionics comes with an ability that lets them go "Beyond even superhuman limitations" and can be expended, once per unit, per game, to give the unit acute senses or relentless upon passing a dice-roll (+4?) until the end of the turn it's used. I'd assume certain special rules or upgrades would allow options that would manipulate the temporary special effect or the dice-roll or the number of times it can be exhausted.

- More and access to lesser seen/ new weapons than in the SM codex due to closer relationship with Mars and tinkering bent.

- Iron hands tacticals get access to a pretty standard heavy weapon, or a flamer or SM Grenade launcher at the 5 man mark, and have access to your usual special weapons at the 10 man unlocked weapon swap. Actually I'm sort of considering allowing them to have tactical squads with 2 heavy weapons in them at the 10 man mark

5 man access to: Lascannon, Autocannon, missile launcher, multi melta, heavy bolter, flamer, SM grenade Launcher

10 man access to: Melta gun, Plasma gun, SM grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter, Autocannon, Missile launcher, Lascannon

Tell me if you think I should limit it more strictly. I like that the big shift is being unable to make your standard good multipurpose, mobile, midranged MSU squad, for having greater access to heavy weapons at 10 men, or being able to make a watered down 10 man mobile mid ranged team.

-Vehicle squadrons where there was no option before

-Not sure if it should be troops or not, but there will be an "Iron Fist" style assault squad, which will probably not replace the jump pack unit (I've seen renditions of iron hands jump infantry) that will probably come with a transport and the option to choose SM Shotguns or bolt pistol and close combat weapon. Probably come with more special weapon upgrades, but integrate special close combat weapon upgrades into the selections in a similar way to the Black templars crusader squads.

-New loadouts for Razorback and Predator.

-More vehicle upgrades.

-Ways to get better repair rolls on transports.

-Sargent that gives a tactical squad a kind of sternguard ammo.

- Might reduce scout access, and bike access, but really not sure. Might have vetran scouts and bikers.

- Facillitate less reliance on standard spacemarine energy weapons. More gritty expoldy projectiles.

-Lots of ways to make things stubborn.

- guys who are particularly good with powefists

Please if you have any thoughts on these ideas or negotiating them into a codex I'd love to hear em!

I'll just reply here for you, Lucre, instead of Quoting since you typed out quite a bit.

1) In the Iron Hands Codex I'm making, Combat Tactics is most certainly gone and Combat Squads is staying (for now at least).

2) My Bionics in the Iron Hands Codex confer a Feel No Pain save ranging from a 6+ (most widespread) to a 4+ save (rarest), depending on the unit. Units with Bionics, however, cannot run or make sweeping advances.

3) I'm representing the vast array of Bionics with Bionic Upgrades. These are conferable only to units that have Bionics and gives them certain added abilities or attribute increases.

4) Most definitely taking the approach of Iron Hands having rarer kinds wargear and weapons with this Codex.

5) I have removed Scout Squads from the Iron Hands Codex. Instead they have been replaced with Grootslang Devastator Squads (Elite Devastator squad equipped with Sniper Rifles, able to take a few Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers, and having various Scout-like special rules) and Initiate Squads (Troops choices, cheaper than Iron Hands Tactical Squads and come with some funky special rules, but have a lower WS and BS and do not have Bionics).

6) As for new loadouts, I have Medusa patterns for Dreadnoughts, Predators, and Land Raiders, which basically allow you to create a wide variety of different types of those vehicles, representing that the Iron Hands have access to virtually all schematics from various chapters or are technologically savvy enough to reverse-engineer or mimic the loadouts.

7) More vehicle upgrades is definitely a given.

8) Iron Hands will have an improved version of Blessings of the Omnissiah which works much better than the standard SM version.

9) As I said earlier, as least with my Codex I've completely removed Scout units (4+ save units).

10) As for Stubborn, my Iron Hands Codex does away with ATSKNF and, instead, all units are simply Fearless but can make a special roll against their Leadership value so they voluntarily fall back and regroup (they're undaunted, but not stupid). I may replace this with ATSKNF, Stubborn, and the ability to pass or fail any Morale test they are called upon to take. Haven't quite decided yet.

11) I do love your idea on having the different Clans mess about with special rules or force organization, just going to be hard to accomplish. The Necrons gave me an idea that maybe they don't screw around with force org or special rules, but instead give better wargear options to certain units.

Ya, yours has a more total approach, I'm trying to find a way of negotiating around that and keeping them a little closer to codex adherence, but I get the feeling you might know some things I do not.

I'm just bad at assessing how to judge these "soft" bonuses and problems I'm giving them against each other and then against the standard.

I was hoping I could help contribute to your goal here with something to bring to the table, but the more I put pen to paper, the more I felt a little in over my head.

I also hate the idea of messing with the force organization chart too much, I don't like how hard some codecies lean on that mechanic, but I would be very happy if I could implement one or two subtler changes that give character to the way a clan likes to do battle when they have it their way.

For some reason, I see iron hands with an awful lot of scoring units. Maybe not everything being troops, because that often makes for flavourless abuse, but maybe scoring other selections or some ability that lets you shift it around.

Iron Hands have never been about tricky generalship to me, reserve rolls, outflanking, they are about doing straightforward jobs in a brutally efficient way, though I do believe they should have things with tactical rule warping generalship powers. Maybe comms and bionic information sharing could play a role in this.

I just hope 6th Edition C:SM doesn't rain on our parade too much. It would be welcome, albeit annoying late, if they suddenly recognised our favourite Pre-Heresy Chapter and added a few special rules, characters and vehicles. I am prepared to be sorely disappointed.

Keep up the good work MARIK.

Okay, it's rumour at this point but god does it look good for Iron Hands and something tells me some of the GW devs peruse the Dakka Dakka proposed rules forums.

Rumour has it of the release of several Iron Hands plastic and finecast kits being released next year by GW (Land Raider Medusa, Iron Father Maalthun, etc). If this stuff is true I am very, very excited.

Bionics upgrade set, Land Raider Medusa, and Maalthun? Excellent, now I want to see the 6th Edition Codex. It's looking promising.

mwnciboo wrote:Bionics upgrade set, Land Raider Medusa, and Maalthun? Excellent, now I want to see the 6th Edition Codex. It's looking promising.

From what I've heard they're remaking the Space Marine Codex in which Black Templars is getting rolled into (sorry BT players). We'll get new special characters, greater unit diversity, and new units.

I'm hoping and praying for some kind of chapter customization though.

Marik Law wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:Bionics upgrade set, Land Raider Medusa, and Maalthun? Excellent, now I want to see the 6th Edition Codex. It's looking promising.

From what I've heard they're remaking the Space Marine Codex in which Black Templars is getting rolled into (sorry BT players). We'll get new special characters, greater unit diversity, and new units.

I'm hoping and praying for some kind of chapter customization though.

That saddens my heart, It will be sad to see the BT rolled into the Marine Codex, they deserve their own, as they are way too different to standard marines

redkommando wrote:

Marik Law wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:Bionics upgrade set, Land Raider Medusa, and Maalthun? Excellent, now I want to see the 6th Edition Codex. It's looking promising.

From what I've heard they're remaking the Space Marine Codex in which Black Templars is getting rolled into (sorry BT players). We'll get new special characters, greater unit diversity, and new units.

I'm hoping and praying for some kind of chapter customization though.

That saddens my heart, It will be sad to see the BT rolled into the Marine Codex, they deserve their own, as they are way too different to standard marines

It may not be true since there was whispers that a BT Codex was being worked on, but god only knows at this point. The Codex books seem to be getting bigger (Codex Chaos Space Marines seems to have all the units from the prior Codex and a bunch more, so this wouldn't surprise me one bit), so they may be able to slam Black Templars into C:SM without harming them too badly. Perhaps giving credence to chapter customization in some way, shape, or form. Would also be extremely nice to be able to take Power Weapons for Terminators instead of Power Fists and to take more assault-oriented Troops choices.

I just want my Terminators leading my other squads (some finecast mini called a First Hand Terminator is being released, one model in a blister, here's hoping).

GW did go Mad for Black Templars in 4th Ed and everyone went where the hell has this come from? It was rammed down everyone's throat, but I cannot see BT getting a Codex. Maybe Codex Son's of Dorn (Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists & Black Templars) otherwise it's just another expense for GW to update. They should be consolidating all the codex and reducing the amount of spurious SM Codices so that they can spend more time updating the Xenos ones. This has been the main reason that Xeno's have not have the attention lavished on that they deserve, because every other book is a bloody SM one!

Work has officially begun on my Codex Iron Hands book!

One thing I'm looking for from you, the faithful Iron Hands players, is help with the special characters. Most of the wikis on the net have very little information about Iron Hands named marines, this includes not providing any information on wargear, weapons, or their tactical style. Thus I'm reaching out to you guys to help me out. Know of the weapons/wargear or tactics a certain named Iron Hands marine has? Let me know!

From my Research..

Notable Members

Post Heresy
Kardan Stronos - Chapter Master of the Iron Hands (BROKEN FLUFF!!)
Bannus - warleader of the Kaargul Clan
Arven Rauth - Clan-Commander of Clan Raukaan.
Talumech - Venerable Dreadnought
Axagoras - Venerable Dreadnought
Paullian Blantar - A former Iron Father of the Kaargul Clan (Deceased)
Gdolkin - Iron Father
Naim Morvox - Brother-Sergeant of Clave Arx (3rd Squad), Clan Raukaan.
Telach - Chief Librarian of Clan Raukaan (Deceased)
Hervel Khatir - Iron Father of Clan Raukaan (Deceased)

I would recommend 5 types of special rule types, each character would have only one of these special rules on the standard HQ :- All special Characters should have a SERVO ARM.
1st Bionic Redundancy (e.g FNP him and the Unit that is with him)
2nd style Venerable Dreanoughts should be secondary HQ OPTION.
3rd Grants Relentless instead of chapter tactics.
4th Targeting Bionics (Has the "BOLTER DRILL" special rule)
5th Comms Relays/Jammer (+1 Reserves, Enemy Scatter 3D6 for any Deep strike or ordnance/ artillery strike.

 mwnciboo wrote:
From my Research..

Notable Members

Post Heresy
Kardan Stronos - Chapter Master of the Iron Hands (BROKEN FLUFF!!)
Bannus - warleader of the Kaargul Clan
Arven Rauth - Clan-Commander of Clan Raukaan.
Talumech - Venerable Dreadnought
Axagoras - Venerable Dreadnought
Paullian Blantar - A former Iron Father of the Kaargul Clan (Deceased)
Gdolkin - Iron Father
Naim Morvox - Brother-Sergeant of Clave Arx (3rd Squad), Clan Raukaan.
Telach - Chief Librarian of Clan Raukaan (Deceased)
Hervel Khatir - Iron Father of Clan Raukaan (Deceased)

I would recommend 5 types of special rule types, each character would have only one of these special rules on the standard HQ :- All special Characters should have a SERVO ARM.
1st Bionic Redundancy (e.g FNP him and the Unit that is with him)
2nd style Venerable Dreanoughts should be secondary HQ OPTION.
3rd Grants Relentless instead of chapter tactics.
4th Targeting Bionics (Has the "BOLTER DRILL" special rule)
5th Comms Relays/Jammer (+1 Reserves, Enemy Scatter 3D6 for any Deep strike or ordnance/ artillery strike.

Kardan Stronos is only mistaken as a Chapter Master by the rest of the Imperium, he is simply the Clan Council's Representative towards the other Imperial factions, hence the confusion.

As for the mentioned special characters, any suggestions on wargear or tactics they employ?

For Rule #1: Virtually every unit either has or can upgrade to have Bionics (Feel No Pain but can't run, sweeping advance, turbo-boost, or overwatch).

For Rule #2: I'm doing something cool instead of Venerable Dreadnoughts this time around. Look forward to Iron Council Elders.

For Rule #3: I don't know, army-wide Relentless is kind of very impressive and could potentially be overpowered.

For Rule #4: Bionic Upgrades will be available to all independent characters and some Sergeants. One of which is Bionic Eyes which gives Night Vision and Split Fire to half the squad he's in.

For Rule #5: Hmm, not sure about this one, but will definitely consider it.

I really like the Bionic Eyes, Fire Control upgrade, especially for Devastators.

I would say that some Special Characters are ripe for conversion as a semi-proxy. So for example Pedro Kantor, keep his STAT line, the Powerfist = Servo Arm, Dorns Arrow = Bionic Stormbolter, add in all of special rules except for the Sternguard one. Replace that with a "Unit he is with becomes Relentless" or Lysanders "Bolter Drill". Keep him at 175pts.

Alternatively because he has a spare hand, give him a Storm Shield, with his Storm Bolter and Servo Arm and call the whole thing 200pts? He would be say "Arven Rauth" .

Maybe a Gdolkin conversion based on the Ultramarine Ortan Cassius stat line and price (Wargear = Power Maul & Mechanicum Refractor shield, as he is not Granted a Crozius or Rosarius), with a Servo Arm and modified special rules?

Relentless is not nearly as potent on troop choices as it used to be. Maybe the ability to assault after firing rapid or heavy weapons would do it? Maybe an improvement on snap fired shots? Say to +5?

Something about the cold calm and connectedness of a machine?

If the rumors are correct for CSM squads, having equal or greater access to heavy than to special weapons sounds really neat to me. Maybe that would work as an unlock?
Imagine a 10 man tactical squad lead by a vet in terminator armor with 2 missile launchers and a typhoon?

Some of my rough drafts also included all sorts of tactical squad Sergeant special characters. One of them gave the squad the Stern-Guard special ammo, another had powerfists he could punch with at initiative 2.

Power Fists hitting at Initiative 2 would be IRON HANDS indeed!

Here's a teaser of the units in the new version of the Codex, since you have all been so patient. Also they have a somewhat Space Wolf-ish special rule that allows them to take two choices for every one HQ (figured it made sense since Clans tend to have much larger Command structures than Companies in other chapters).

HQ
+ Vaylund Cal
+ Iron Captain
+ Iron Father
+ (Iron Guard)
+ (Servitor Henchmen)
+ Librarian
+ Council Elder
+ Apothecary (3 as single HQ, can't take as mandatory)

ELITES
+ Morlock Terminators
+ Veteran Clave
+ Scout Clave
+ Techmarine (can take three as a single Elites choice)
+ Medusa Dreadnought (can be taken as both Elites choices and Heavy Support choices)

TROOPS
+ Tactical Clave
+ Neophyte Clave
+ Servitor Maniple (can take one for each Tactical Clave or Neophyte Clave you take)

FAST ATTACK
+ Garm Assault Clave
+ Cerastes Bike Clave
+ Attack Bike Clave
+ Preta Land Speeder Squadron
+ Stormtalon Gunship

HEAVY SUPPORT
+ Grootslang Devastator Clave
+ Weapons Platform
+ Robot Maniple
+ Iron Knight
+ Medusa Predator
+ Whirlwind
+ Vindicator
+ Medusa Land Raider

Ooh, I'm liking what units you've chosen to add