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mwnciboo wrote:Okay, Iron Hands don't have a Chapter Master therefore they cannot take an Honour Guard. I think every Commander of a Clan should have a slightly modified Command Squad part Honour Guard part Command Squad. Call it the "Iron Guard" it would be an Apothecary and 3 Honour Guards and a Champion (including a Standard) Weighing in at 250 points then add on Wargear.

With the "Iron Guard" unit you could go to town with Techmarine conversions and Power Weapons etc. What do you think of this idea?

Honour Guards will still be able to be taken, however they will function like they do in Codex Blood Angels where you can take them for any HQ Independent Character (so an Iron Thane or Iron Father could be accompanied by Servitors, Honour Guard, or a Command Squad).


On the topic of Dreadnoughts, you will be able to take up to two Venerable Dreadnoughts as a single Headquarters choice. Ironclad Dreadnoughts will still count as Elites choices while normal Dreadnoughts will be Heavy Support. This means you can potentially field up to 10 Dreadnoughts (4 Venerable, 3 Ironclad, 3 Normal).

Alright, I think I've tortured people long enough. Here's the current overview of the units in Codex: Iron Hands.


HEADQUARTERS
- Kardan Stronos (Acting Chapter Master of the Iron Hands, though all this position confers is basically having Kardan act as an ambassador of the chapter, otherwise the Chapter's Iron Thanes share leadership equally)
- Vaylund Cal (Chapter Master of the Sons of Medusa)
- Iron Thane
- Honour Guard Squad
- Opus Machina Iron Thane (basically an Iron Thane that's gone overboard on replacing organics, essentially making him much more machine than man, fits on a 40mm base)
- Iron Father
- Command Squad
- Venerable Dreadnought (can take two as a single Headquarters choice)
- Magos (Adeptus Mechanicus representative, has some cool special rules and wargear options)
- Opus Machina Magos (same as Opus Machina Iron Thane, but with different stats and special rules)

ELITES
- Sternguard Veteran Squad (no real change, except can be upgraded to have Bionics and, if the squad takes Bionics, it can take a single Implant)
- Eradicator Veteran Squad (basically a Devastator Veteran Squad, acts as an embodiment of the Iron Hands way of thinking. Has Tank Hunters and counts all weapons as Twin-Linked against non-vehicle enemy units. Has 4+ Bionics save right off the bat and can take a single Implant)
- Ironclad Dreadnought
- Techmarines (can take up to three as a single Elites choice. Blessings of the Omnissiah much better and flows more with the pace of the game)
- Skitarii Storm Troopers (basically Imperial Guard Storm Troopers, but with a 5+ Bionics save and access to better weapons. Taken as Troops instead of Elites if you have a Magos in your army)
- Electro-priests (another Adeptus Mechanicus unit, basically Techpriests who have dedicated themselves to fighting and to battle)
- Servitors

TROOPS
- Tactical Squad

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS
- Rhino
- Stronos Razorback (has Rhino's self repair special rule, also has different weapon loadouts and options)

FAST ATTACK
- Assault Squad (can be upgraded to have Personal Teleporters)
- Vanguard Veteran Squad (can be upgraded to have Personal Teleporters)
- Space Marine Bike Squad (can be upgraded to have Space Marine Jet Bikes)
- Attack Bike Squad
- Land Speeder Squad

HEAVY SUPPORT
- Devastator Squad
- Dreadnought
- Mobile Weapon Platforms (same as Thunderfire Cannons, but you can take up to three of them as a single Heavy Support choice and they have multiple weapon options)
- Praetorian Servitors (bad-ass battle servitors, Relentless, equipped with a variety of heavy weapons)
- Imperial Knight (basically an enclosed version of a Dreadknight)
- Predator
- Vindicator
- Whirlwind
- Land Raider
- Land Raider Crusader
- Land Raider Redeemer
- Land Raider Ares (bad-ass 300 point Land Raider, no transport capacity but is equipped with two twin-linked heavy flamers in the sponsons, a twin-linked assault cannon, and a forward-facing Vindicator Cannon)

Looks brilliant. Although it could do with some more characters, to fit the current theme of more and more of them. Pre-Chaos Brazen Claws? Praetors of Orpheus?
And the vanilla MotF entry pretty much stated that the Iron Hands have one.

You need another troops option. One doesn't cut it.

Yeah... Specifically, more AdMech stuff. With the current list, if it were released by GW, they'd probably hype up the "AdMech army" side of it, and then be moaned at for not providing enough units for that to be a viable choice.

BTW, are Praetors of Orpheus not Ultramarine successors? I am looking at a Chapter badge with an Ultramarine U in the corner.

LANDRAIDER ARES FTW!!!!!!!!!!!! Want one..

That is the one on the GW site? The one made by the Dark Angels?

...Fair point. But apparently they're closely linked with the Mechanicus, and seem like the sort who would use these rules.

Probably, yeah.



Ooo, I have an idea! You know how many chapters distrust the AdMech associated Chapters?, Well, make it a rule that any ally SM, other than GK, cannot embark on a IH vehicle under any circumstances. Buy your own or hoof it!

Deadshot wrote:You need another troops option. One doesn't cut it.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Yeah... Specifically, more AdMech stuff. With the current list, if it were released by GW, they'd probably hype up the "AdMech army" side of it, and then be moaned at for not providing enough units for that to be a viable choice.

You can take Skitarii Storm Troopers as Troops if you take a Magos. Basically you can't have a true AdMech army without a Magos, in a nutshell. Which, if you think about it, makes sense. Wouldn't be much of an AdMech army without one.

I am toying with ideas for more AdMech units, particularly some Fast Attack choices as that area of the army on both sides is pretty bland right now. Any suggestions would be very welcome.

Maybe adding a Battle Servitors squad as Troops, but having a rule where you can't have more Battle Servitor squads than you have Tactical Squads.

Deadshot wrote:That is the one on the GW site? The one made by the Dark Angels?

Yes, it was originally created by the Dark Angels and had the Dark Angels had their way, it would have stayed with the Dark Angels. However, the chapter's Techmarines thought the design was so impressive that they sent the designs off to Mars to be analyzed and potentially mass-produced, a move that was never approved by and has never sat well with the rest of the Dark Angels.

Deadshot wrote:Ooo, I have an idea! You know how many chapters distrust the AdMech associated Chapters?, Well, make it a rule that any ally SM, other than GK, cannot embark on a IH vehicle under any circumstances. Buy your own or hoof it!

Hmm, I'll think about this one. The Blood Angels are right up there with other Chapters and other authorities (Inquisition) that think they're absolutely bonkers and borderline heretics yet people can still bear it and ride their transports and what not.

However, I do think a rule where Iron Hands Independent Characters cannot join non-Codex units except for Imperial Guard and Inquisitors sounds like a neat idea. Shows that other chapters and the Sisters of Battle really don't want to be lead around by Machine God-worshiping, perfection obsessed Marines who may readily turn their anger upon their allies for an act as simple as a tactical retreat.

You might want the Gk as well. The GK will do anything to destruy Chaos, much like the IH, but will do ANYTHING. And if the GK fall back, and those IH DARE attack them, well, they are as good as gone.


Maybe a rule that IH IC can join GK squads, but they never use the IC Ld, to show the GK superiority in terms of Command Structure.

Salted Diamond wrote:Where does it talk about dreads never going without a techmarine? Would like to know the source as I have never read that. I see problems with if they get one for each dread, will it be a single unit (dread and tech) or 2 separate? Together could cause problems with assault, but apart would make the tech any easy target, and he'd kinda need to stay close to the dread if that's the only thing he is allowed to work on.

In a lot of general SM fluff (my BA mention this) techmarines always go into battle with their vehicles. In one of the older vanilla sm dexes it mentions how the dreadnoughts are so hallowed they are always assigned at least 1 techmarine in battle should they fall (id quote it for you but I sold my old nilla marines dex when i got the new BA one) you'd count the two separately to make them weaker, because the techmarines job is to repair the dreadnought they're equipped to do just that, and so can repair him on like, a 4+ or so. kind of like how you always kill the kantus first in Gears of War, or how you shoot the glowing one in fallout 3, you'd wanna make the techmarine a target, especially since itll draw fire away from the dread since theres always a chance that immobillized or weapon destroyed will be repaired next turn

I like the thought of a razorback armed with something full auto and scarier than an HB (my tau laugh at your HB and it's three dinky shots...we give those to our worst units! and ours are better! XD) almost like a baal predator light or something...maybe a conversion beamer to reflect their perchant for tech?

Shh. Don't say Conversion Bea...Damn!

He doesn't want too many conversion Beamers.

Because too many CBs means Conversionspam. And that kind of ruins the fact of "incredibly rare pre-heresy weapons".

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Because too many CBs means Conversionspam. And that kind of ruins the fact of "incredibly rare pre-heresy weapons".

My thoughts exactly. We already have Iron Thanes, Magos, Weapons Platforms, and Venerable Dreads that can take them or a variation of them, lets leave it at that.

A Baal Pred is a LRR light. A HF Razor is a Baal Pred Light.


How a about a LRC Predator? Assault Cannon and Hurricaine Bolters sponsons?

Some very good ideas here. I would LOVE to see a codex with- *SPOILERS IF YOU HAVE NOT READ the IRON HANDS BOOK*









Dreadnought Iron Father Gdolkin, like he was at the end of the book. That would be really awesome.

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:Some very good ideas here. I would LOVE to see a codex with- *SPOILERS IF YOU HAVE NOT READ the IRON HANDS BOOK*

Consider it done.

Why not more the dreadnought to troops instead of heavy and have it scoring but you can have more dreads than tactical squads like death company and their dreads. Also what about a scout equivilant. maybe a huge scout squad led by a techmarine training them for battle!

@James100: Again, the IHs have less Dreads than most other chapters.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:@James100: Again, the IHs have less Dreads than most other chapters.

QFT. The (slight) difference between IH and codex chapters is they hold their dreads higher for being free from the weakness of flesh and closer to unity with the Omsiah (sp). They also have their dreads in command positions where it seems most chapters they are only advisers.

James100 wrote:Why not more the dreadnought to troops instead of heavy and have it scoring but you can have more dreads than tactical squads like death company and their dreads. Also what about a scout equivilant. maybe a huge scout squad led by a techmarine training them for battle!

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:@James100: Again, the IHs have less Dreads than most other chapters.

Salted Diamond wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:@James100: Again, the IHs have less Dreads than most other chapters.

QFT. The (slight) difference between IH and codex chapters is they hold their dreads higher for being free from the weakness of flesh and closer to unity with the Omsiah (sp). They also have their dreads in command positions where it seems most chapters they are only advisers.

Yeah, the only type of Dreadnoughts the chapter has more of is Venerables and they tend to treat them with much higher levels of respect and it's not uncommon for armies to be lead by Venerable Dreadnoughts. This is already being represented in the codex by A) Allowing Venerable Dreadnoughts to be taken as Headquarters choices and B) Allowing you to take up to two Venerable Dreadnoughts as a single Headquarters choice.

It's still possible to have a very mech-heavy army with this list, as Ironclads count as Elites while regular Dreads count as Heavy Support (thus allowing for a total of 10 Dreadnoughts to be taken via standard force org) for Iron Hands-like armies that do have more Dreads than normal, but the prior posters are right in that they don't have an excess of them.

Ironclads, are absolute Beasts in CC. I mean what a superb unit, with lots of high strength attacks resulting in lots of instant death to enemy units.

My Iron Hands Contemptor is pretty good. The Kheres Assault cannon is just brutal.

heavy 6, str 6, rending... Brutal

I'm still debating about the Dreadnoughts. One part of me wants to take the simple, easy way and just leave Ironclads as Elites and regular Dreads as Heavy Support.

The other part of me wants to remove them from the force organization entirely and make it so you can take one Ironclad or normal Dread for every Iron Thane, Iron Father, and Techmarine you have.

On the one hand, the removing from the F.O. would make more sense, with the Iron Hands. On the other, DREADSPAM WHEEEEEEE

Marik Law wrote:I'm still debating about the Dreadnoughts. One part of me wants to take the simple, easy way and just leave Ironclads as Elites and regular Dreads as Heavy Support.

The other part of me wants to remove them from the force organization entirely and make it so you can take one Ironclad or normal Dread for every Iron Thane, Iron Father, and Techmarine you have.

I would go for the simple route. It makes more sense with the Iron Hands fluff. Things that mess with the FOC often cause more problems then they are worth, IMHO.

Added in a new Troops choice: Neophyte Squad

Consists of 5 to 10 models in Power Armour with WS 3 and BS 3. Can include up to 10 Servitors as well. Squad is Fearless and always counts as Rending in close combat. Does not get the Combat Squads special rule.

Few other updates and new units as well...

- Added in an Iron Commander unit (basically a Captain). 100 Points, can take Bionics and a few Implants.
- Renamed Techmarines to Forge-Wrights.
- Added Gdolkin as a Special Character (need info on him, specifically his demeanor and what kind of equipment he has as a Dreadnought).

Sounds good to me. So what role would an Iron Commander fill in the Iron Hands' heirachy?

Captain?

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Sounds good to me. So what role would an Iron Commander fill in the Iron Hands' heirachy?

Deadshot wrote:Captain?

Correct. In my mind we can glimpse the Sons of Medusa somewhat for how the Iron Hands themselves structure. Basically each Clan is ruled by their Council Representatives, which consist of both Iron Thanes and Venerable Dreads, but the charge of actually carrying out the orders of the Council Representative's will is taken out by the Iron Commander.