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Salted Diamond wrote:I understand what you meant now, and I see what you mean. Maybe a roll of 1 allowed the enemy to reroll a failed armor save, or subtracts 1 from combat resolution to see who won (the way banners add one). Not sure if it would be cumulative or not.

Perhaps any to-hit rolls of 1 strike at -1 or -2 to the model's Strength value?

Marik Law wrote:

Salted Diamond wrote:I understand what you meant now, and I see what you mean. Maybe a roll of 1 allowed the enemy to reroll a failed armor save, or subtracts 1 from combat resolution to see who won (the way banners add one). Not sure if it would be cumulative or not.

Perhaps any to-hit rolls of 1 strike at -1 or -2 to the model's Strength value?

But any rolls of 1 are a miss anyway, so a modifiers are moot there already.

I also have an idea for allowing the Sgt in Termi to ride in Rhino's. Allow them to count as 1 model, but they can't get in or out if either the unit or rhino moved that turn, and they can not move after disembarking. This is due to the bulky nature of the termi armor having to fit.

Salted Diamond wrote:

Marik Law wrote:

Salted Diamond wrote:I understand what you meant now, and I see what you mean. Maybe a roll of 1 allowed the enemy to reroll a failed armor save, or subtracts 1 from combat resolution to see who won (the way banners add one). Not sure if it would be cumulative or not.

Perhaps any to-hit rolls of 1 strike at -1 or -2 to the model's Strength value?

But any rolls of 1 are a miss anyway, so a modifiers are moot there already.

I also have an idea for allowing the Sgt in Termi to ride in Rhino's. Allow them to count as 1 model, but they can't get in or out if either the unit or rhino moved that turn, and they can not move after disembarking. This is due to the bulky nature of the termi armor having to fit.

How about this....

The Flesh is Weak/Suffer Not the Weakness of Flesh
All units with this special rule are Stubborn and count as Rending in close combat. Units with this special rule that roll a 1 to hit in an assault have their Strength value reduced by 1 (to a minimum of 1) until the end of turn. This reduction is applied before any other modifiers.

Why not just count their T as -1 when an opponent rolls a 6 to wound?

Here's an idea: their weakness doesn't make them even weaker, it makes them stronger.

The Flesh is Weak
All units with this special rule and any unit he joins is Stubborn. Additionally, if a unit with this special rule and any unit he joins ever rolls a 1 to hit in close combat, the unit's close combat attacks and the close combat attacks of any they are a part of will count as Rending until the end of the turn.

Basically the failure of one individual makes all of them more zealous in an effort to overcome the weakness of their flesh.

Marik Law wrote:Here's an idea: their weakness doesn't make them even weaker, it makes them stronger.

The Flesh is Weak
All units with this special rule and any unit he joins is Stubborn. Additionally, if a unit with this special rule and any unit he joins ever rolls a 1 to hit in close combat, the unit's close combat attacks and the close combat attacks of any they are a part of will count as Rending until the end of the turn.

Basically the failure of one individual makes all of them more zealous in an effort to overcome the weakness of their flesh.

That's great, but there needs to be a downside to it. what if they can't consolidate if they win the close combat...?

redkommando wrote:

Marik Law wrote:Here's an idea: their weakness doesn't make them even weaker, it makes them stronger.

The Flesh is Weak
All units with this special rule and any unit he joins is Stubborn. Additionally, if a unit with this special rule and any unit he joins ever rolls a 1 to hit in close combat, the unit's close combat attacks and the close combat attacks of any they are a part of will count as Rending until the end of the turn.

Basically the failure of one individual makes all of them more zealous in an effort to overcome the weakness of their flesh.

That's great, but there needs to be a downside to it. what if they can't consolidate if they win the close combat...?

Sounds good to me.

Was reading through the vanilla codex last night and was thinking, does it have to have a minus to it? If it's replacing "Chapter Tactics" the way IC do, then why are we putting one in? Could just change to stubborn and add rending to CC. If anything change the consolidation to only D3" if any rending attacks where made.

Going back to the whole bionics upgrades, I think a model/unit should only be allowed to take 1 bionic upgrade. Maybe IC can have 2, but no more.

Or possibly 3...

Salted Diamond wrote:Was reading through the vanilla codex last night and was thinking, does it have to have a minus to it? If it's replacing "Chapter Tactics" the way IC do, then why are we putting one in? Could just change to stubborn and add rending to CC. If anything change the consolidation to only D3" if any rending attacks where made.

Going back to the whole bionics upgrades, I think a model/unit should only be allowed to take 1 bionic upgrade. Maybe IC can have 2, but no more.

We'll test it as Stubborn and on to-hit rolls of 1 the rest of the unit's attacks are Rending with no downsides first, see how it works out.

As for Bionics, currently Iron Thanes and Magos can take up to three Bionic Upgrades. Iron Fathers can take up to two upgrades (they already get a 4+ Invulnerable Save, so don't want to overdo it). Most others units can take a single upgrade, but some units (such as Tactical Squads) have very limited options.

UPDATE!
Something I wanted to share with everyone was one of the options an Iron Thane and Magos has.

Instead of taking any Bionic Implants or a Conversion Beamer, an Iron Thane or Magos can be upgraded to a special Machine profile. He can't take Terminator armour, a jump pack, or a bike, but he has the Relentless USR as well as improved stats. He can choose to replace one of his arms for a Heavy Weapon, but if he does so he will never be able to claim +1 Attack for having two close combat weapons. Expensive points cost for upgrade to this profile.

Introduced this option for the really extremist Thanes and Magos who have barely any organic tissue left (if any) and whom are basically living machines. They are mounted on a 40mm base and tend to have their lower half replaced with treads or walker appendages. Still ironing this out, but think it would not only be cool but also fluffy.

Okay, love this idea as a convert to the Iron Hands. Here are some idea's.

1. Signum upgrade, a tactical sgt can take a signum upgrade at 10points it maybe used once per turn on any weapon within the squad.

2. An Iron Father Special rule "Marik's Rites" - The Rhino Immobilised repair roll is extended to cover Razorbacks, predators, whirlwinds and vindicators.

3. A Techmarine is not an elite choice, but can be taken as a troops choice if escorted by 4 weapon servitors.

4. Thunderfire Cannons get a single re-roll to hit everytime it fires.

5. Gets Hot Rule - All Iron Hands get to re-roll any failed get's hot rolls.

6. MOTF may take a Conversion Beamer for free.

7. A single Devastator may take a Conversion Beamer.

8. Any Sergeant in the Army may upgrade his armour for Terminator Armour for 20points.

This is off the top of my head, take them, modify them, leave them alone, they are just idea's.

mwnciboo wrote:Okay, love this idea as a convert to the Iron Hands. Here are some idea's.

1. Signum upgrade, a tactical sgt can take a signum upgrade at 10points it maybe used once per turn on any weapon within the squad.

2. An Iron Father Special rule "Marik's Rites" - The Rhino Immobilised repair roll is extended to cover Razorbacks, predators, whirlwinds and vindicators.

3. A Techmarine is not an elite choice, but can be taken as a troops choice if escorted by 4 weapon servitors.

4. Thunderfire Cannons get a single re-roll to hit everytime it fires.

5. Gets Hot Rule - All Iron Hands get to re-roll any failed get's hot rolls.

6. MOTF may take a Conversion Beamer for free.

7. A single Devastator may take a Conversion Beamer.

8. Any Sergeant in the Army may upgrade his armour for Terminator Armour for 20points.

This is off the top of my head, take them, modify them, leave them alone, they are just idea's.

1 is already in the Codex somewhat in the form of Optical Implant. Provides Night Vision and, if the unit remains stationary in the shooting phase, can either confer +1 BS to the unit that has it OR allows the unit to count as having a Signum until the end of turn.

2 I like, will consider adding it in.

With 3, I'd rather leave them as Elites choices with the option of taking up to three as a single Elites choice.

Not sure about 4 as you can select other weapons besides a Thunderfire Cannon in an Iron Hands army (such as a Thudd Gun or a Heavy Conversion Beamer).

Number 5 would sadly clash The Flesh Is Weak so I'm gonna have to say that this one won't make it in.

6 and 7 I can't see happening either as Venerable Dreadnoughts and standard Dreadnoughts will be able to take Heavy Conversion Beamers, Techmarines will be able to take Conversion Beamers, and Weapons Platforms can take Heavy Conversion Beamers. I don't want to over-saturate the army with them. I also don't think they should be free as they are a rather impressive piece of hardware at range.

8 is already in there.

I think the Stronos Pattern Razorback, named after the IH "Chapter Master" should have a bonus. A Stronos is a Las Plas.

Maybe you could re-write Assault marines to use those Teleport packs that The Grey knights use. Just an option, as it would make sense that very rare tech like this, the Iron Hands would have access to it or at least a few prototypes from the Mechanicum.

The reason I put Thunderfire rule in, is to represent the Techmarine controlling it of being an Iron Hand MAster Techmarine as opposed to a normal standard techmarine. You could always expand it to cover trantula's or any other standalone artillery, Weapon system, or automated system.

Deadshot wrote:I think the Stronos Pattern Razorback, named after the IH "Chapter Master" should have a bonus. A Stronos is a Las Plas.

Perhaps a Stronos Razorback could be the IH version of a standard Razorback and have either a Multi-melta, twin-linked Lascannons, Lascannon and co-ax twin-linked Plasma Gun, or a Plasma Cannon.

Would be interested to see IH have their own Predator variant as well.

mwnciboo wrote:Maybe you could re-write Assault marines to use those Teleport packs that The Grey knights use. Just an option, as it would make sense that very rare tech like this, the Iron Hands would have access to it or at least a few prototypes from the Mechanicum.

Both Assault Squads and Vanguard Veteran Squads will be able to take Personal Teleporters. Also, Space Marine Bike Squads can be upgraded to have Space Marine Jet Bikes to represent that not only do the IH have them, but are able to maintain them.

How about: No Scouts or Scout Bikers; the only way that scouts can be taken is through attachment to a Tactical Squad. (I don't really see Scout Squads as an Iron Hands thing.)

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:How about: No Scouts or Scout Bikers; the only way that scouts can be taken is through attachment to a Tactical Squad. (I don't really see Scout Squads as an Iron Hands thing.)

I'd make Scouts a 0-1 reasoning they don't have as many (with no Scout company), and they are not allowed to infiltrate or out flank. Iron Hands are too straight forward to bother with such silly tactics.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:How about: No Scouts or Scout Bikers; the only way that scouts can be taken is through attachment to a Tactical Squad. (I don't really see Scout Squads as an Iron Hands thing.)

I've already excluded Scouts, Scout Bikers, and Land Speeder Storms from the Codex since the Iron Hands have one of the most rigorous initiations of any chapter (one that has a higher failure rate than most other chapters, leaving them with more Servitors but less actual worthy recruits).

Salted Diamond wrote:I'd make Scouts a 0-1 reasoning they don't have as many (with no Scout company), and they are not allowed to infiltrate or out flank. Iron Hands are too straight forward to bother with such silly tactics.

I'm trying to refrain from using "0-1" restrictions on units as much as possible, hence why Scouts have been left out entirely. I don't see Iron Hands entrusting any part of their battles to those who are no more skilled than a standard Battle Brother, especially given their perfectionist attitude and their loathing for the weakness and failures of the flesh.

An IH Predator...Hmmm how about a Conversion Beamer Turret, with HB's on the sponson? (Yes i know i need to shut up about Conversion Beamer..It is awesome though).

I would call it something to do with Forge's. e.g. ANVIL Class Predator, HAMMER Class Pred, Or a PYRITE Class Predator.

Maybe to show the large numbers of Servitors, and lack of scouts we should look at large Servitor units?

mwnciboo wrote:An IH Predator...Hmmm how about a Conversion Beamer Turret, with HB's on the sponson? (Yes i know i need to shut up about Conversion Beamer..It is awesome though).

I would call it something to do with Forge's. e.g. ANVIL Class Predator, HAMMER Class Pred, Or a PYRITE Class Predator.

Maybe to show the large numbers of Servitors, and lack of scouts we should look at large Servitor units?

Vulcan Predator

Vulcan being the Roman name for the Greek god Hephaestus, fitting as he was a god of technology and crafting in general. Main armament would be a Vulcan Heavy Bolter (smaller variation of a Vulcan Megabolter, single rotary array instead of double). Can carry a few other main weapons, mainly upgraded versions of standard weaponry or something.

Oh wow, like the Vulcan Heavy Bolter, is that like a single rotary Vulcan Bolter, because the MegaBolter is always a pair of rotary Heavy Bolters?

I love where this is going, if you need an images copy them off my Pre-Heresy Iron Hand Gallery, I have been collecting IH iconography and pictures.

mwnciboo wrote:Oh wow, like the Vulcan Heavy Bolter, is that like a single rotary Vulcan Bolter, because the MegaBolter is always a pair of rotary Heavy Bolters?

I love where this is going, if you need an images copy them off my Pre-Heresy Iron Hand Gallery, I have been collecting IH iconography and pictures.

Yup, except not as powerful as a standard Vulcan Megabolter wouldn't fit on a Rhino. Still ironing out the details.

Lord Magnus wrote:Are you going for more of a gunline style marine army? because all other sections seem to be filled (Jump Pack, Mech, Psyker army of doom, OTT devestators) I think it would be a cool and unique playstyle if they were not assault or close range centered, and not meched up..

who is the meched up SM codex? Cause it ain't dark angels or templars...deathwing are too expensive and so are landraiders if you're planning to use them as dedicated transports...I always saw the iron hands as meched up, the counterpart to the iron warriors

as far as fixing vehicles and bionics have you given a thought to the new necron WBB rules? they roll at the beginning of every phase. you could do something similar with the techmarine repairs, that they could forgo shooting moving or assaulting to attempt to fix a vehicle, limit one try per vehicle per turn?

As far as techmarines I like the idea of taking them Sanguinary Priest style, but it doesn't add much to the character of the army, it just gives them a chance to take more techmarines. I like the thought of using techmarines as a basis for dreads (after all, the fluff says dreads never go into battle without a techmarine to repair and recover their hallowed frames) and maybe with the other buffs you're planning they'll be more interesting, but just letting you take more isn't going to be enough I know...

I heard mention of Iron Fathers, have you thought about doing something similar to a Big Mech army? where taking a repair guy as your HQ gives you access to more tech heavy options? perhaps taking an iron father would let you take bionics on more units, or take them at a discount.

IDK if nilla marines still do this for bionics but the old nilla marines bionics rule I thought was pretty accurate, that basically he has a 6+ FNP roll in addition to any other saves if a model has bionics. maybe that? and also more weapon options?

Marik Law wrote:If you've been reading the posts, quite a lot. A good deal of squads will have access to Bionics. Certain squads that take Bionics will be able to take Bionic Implants. A good deal of squad Sergeants can be upgraded to have Terminator armour. The army can get very Dreadnought heavy pretty quick. No Librarians. Venerable Dreadnoughts are HQ and have access to a much wider array of wargear and options. Techmarines can be taken 3 for every one Elites choice. They'll have access to certain Adeptus Mechanicus units for added flair. Bike Squads can be upgraded to Jet Bike Squads. No Scout squads.

as far as other options, I know the iron warriors are big on seiges, are the iron hands similar? could you include IG tanks and such? that would certainly help differentiate your army, and give it a unique flair (not like taking ig squads but, using certain leman russ variants like the vanquisher and the executioner etc) and a different playstyle, the ability to mix in ordinance tanks with decent armor supporting your bionic infantry?

I'm no master of the Iron Hands lore by any means, so I admit to relying on searching info on them!

What comes to mind immediately for the "holy crap awesome" factor is the idea of mobile fortresses, their Behemoths. Something combining vehicle and structure rules, with points that can be garrisoned by units. This may well be reserved for Apocalypse though.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a strong chapter doctrine of war (a penchant for cybernetics isn't the same thing). HQ dreads seem to be heavily supported, but apart from that... hrm.

Of course, that's also an opportunity, as you can choose to make them more CC or shooty oriented.

Seige is more Imperial Fists territory, but off the top of my head, I see them as more a relentless advance with the medium-power heavy weapons. To the point of say, having a heavy support choice to replace Devastators that can take Autocannons and has Relentless, but lacks access to lascannons/missiles.

Additionally, to support closing with the enemy, probably some kind of army-wide special rule like "overwhelming firepower" where their heavy weapons cause pinning if to units within 12" of the shooter? So they relentlessly advance towards enemies with Heavy Bolters and Autocannons, pounding them into the dust until they finish them off with a charge? That seems to support a cold, relentless hatred theme to me.

Just some random ideas.

Corseth wrote:I'm no master of the Iron Hands lore by any means, so I admit to relying on searching info on them!

What comes to mind immediately for the "holy crap awesome" factor is the idea of mobile fortresses, their Behemoths. Something combining vehicle and structure rules, with points that can be garrisoned by units. This may well be reserved for Apocalypse though.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a strong chapter doctrine of war (a penchant for cybernetics isn't the same thing). HQ dreads seem to be heavily supported, but apart from that... hrm.

Of course, that's also an opportunity, as you can choose to make them more CC or shooty oriented.

Seige is more Imperial Fists territory, but off the top of my head, I see them as more a relentless advance with the medium-power heavy weapons. To the point of say, having a heavy support choice to replace Devastators that can take Autocannons and has Relentless, but lacks access to lascannons/missiles.

Additionally, to support closing with the enemy, probably some kind of army-wide special rule like "overwhelming firepower" where their heavy weapons cause pinning if to units within 12" of the shooter? So they relentlessly advance towards enemies with Heavy Bolters and Autocannons, pounding them into the dust until they finish them off with a charge? That seems to support a cold, relentless hatred theme to me.

Just some random ideas.

I like this. Maybe do it as a replacement for Chapter Tactics. All unit's gain relentless or Slow-and-purposeful , but maybe have to pass a leadership to assault (Sargent telling them "You can stop shooting now"). Maybe add that Las/missile do not benefit from this rule to keep them from getting to OP.

Could have either a choice between two, or different IC's to swap. Build a CC list with "The Flesh is Weak", or a more shooty army with "Overwhelming Firepower" Both seem fluffy to me.

The Dev could be replaced with "Iron Hammers". It talks in the CSM codex how loyalists stopped using the autocannons, so maybe any roll to hit and/or wound of "6" makes it pinning, -1 to targets leadership for each addition 6 rolled.

Okay, Iron Hands don't have a Chapter Master therefore they cannot take an Honour Guard. I think every Commander of a Clan should have a slightly modified Command Squad part Honour Guard part Command Squad. Call it the "Iron Guard" it would be an Apothecary and 3 Honour Guards and a Champion (including a Standard) Weighing in at 250 points then add on Wargear.

With the "Iron Guard" unit you could go to town with Techmarine conversions and Power Weapons etc. What do you think of this idea?

What was said abiove about Dreads never fighting without a Techmarine has given me an idea.

What about Dreads getting a free Techmarine, witn no upgrades.

If the Techmarine is still alive when its dreadnought is destroyed., then the dread awards no KP or VP, and may capture objectives. And the Techmarine may only repair the dread.

Where does it talk about dreads never going without a techmarine? Would like to know the source as I have never read that. I see problems with if they get one for each dread, will it be a single unit (dread and tech) or 2 separate? Together could cause problems with assault, but apart would make the tech any easy target, and he'd kinda need to stay close to the dread if that's the only thing he is allowed to work on.

Maybe something different then

Dreadnought Protector

If a model has this rule, then at the start of a game, it must randomly pick a dreadnought. As long as a model with this rule is alive, that dreadnought may capture objectives, and does not award kill points for being wrecked, though if it explodes it does.. If this model dies, then the dreadnought may no longer capture, and awards KP. if the dread is already wrecked however, it does not award KP because the shell has been cleansed and protected.

Maybe have a predator/razorback varient with a missile launcher turret - even if it was a razorback with a missile launcher instead of a twin linked heavy bolter and you have to pay say 10 or 15 points more for it.