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Marik Law wrote: - Renamed Techmarines to Forge-Wrights.

I think re-naming techmarines is going overboard. Yes make the codex unique, but there is no need to re-name every unit. They are still "codex" marines. It talks in the Space Marine codex about how Blood Angels are "codex" with slight variation. I see Iron Hands as similar.

Salted Diamond wrote:

Marik Law wrote: - Renamed Techmarines to Forge-Wrights.

I think re-naming techmarines is going overboard. Yes make the codex unique, but there is no need to re-name every unit. They are still "codex" marines. It talks in the Space Marine codex about how Blood Angels are "codex" with slight variation. I see Iron Hands as similar.

This change was done as every time I see a Techmarine mentioned in either Iron Hands or Sons of Medusa lore, they are never directly titled as Techmarines, and the closest thing I ever find apart from Iron Thanes and Iron Fathers is Forge-Wrights. Hence why the change was made.

Also, with the rules for Blessings of the Omnissiash and Bolster Defenses changing to be better, it could perhaps avoid confusion (may change the name of the abilities as well).

UPDATE: Gonna start putting together the Codex soon, rough version will have placeholders for pictures but no pictures.

Starting the write-up of the Codex now. Has some pretty awesome units and customization in it, however I needed to ask everyone something.

Already planning on letting Iron Commanders in Terminator armour take Heavy Flamers, but what about Assault Cannons and Cyclone Missile Launchers? Yay or nay to either?

I think both of those are fine, just be sure to cost them appropriately

I would have thought Assault Cannon was fine, less sold on the Cyclone Missile Launcher. When was the last time you ever saw a Captain/Chaplain with a Heavy Weapon? It's just not their role, a Flamer is an Assault weapon, and captains an assault unit. Same with Assault Cannon (Clues in title), I just don't see a Space Marine Captain using a Cyclone Terminator Missile Launcher. It's like a Captain driving a Vindicator or Razorback, its a support weapon for the troopers to use!

I disagree, actually. Terminators are Relentless, remember? The whole point of their weapon options is that these are the weapons they use while stomping implacably towards the enemy, hosing down the lines with fire before charging home and breaking the morale of the survivors by executing important-looking individuals gruesomely with their power fists. Can't you just picture a Terminator on a Space Hulk or in a boarding action (what the suits were originally designed for, IIRC) firing a frag missile right into the middle of the enemy and immediately charging after it? He doesn't care about the shrapnel, he's wearing Terminator armor!

That being so, I think Iron Hands Captains should be able to take any of the weapons any Terminator can; heavy flamers, assault cannons, and CMLs included.

An Iron Father (Captain/Chaplain) is a CC orientated character he is neither a Devastator Sergeant nor Captain of the Devastator Company. If he took a suit of TDA I would expect a SS + TH or PW or RB with extra options (Aux Grenade launcher) I would not expect him to be a Heavy Support Terminator with a Cyclone ML and a SB. Space HULK is neither here nor there, and if it were the case then Space Hulk (the original) never let your Captain have a heavy/assault weapon anyway! You are right about the TDA design idea for confined fights like tunnels and hulks.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Terminator_Armour#.TyA2D6VUzRM

It's not practical for an Iron Father to have a Cyclone, neither does it take advantage of his Initiative or number of attacks, a lightning Claw or PW would be more appropriate with a SS.

I would see an argument for an Iron Hand Techmarine in Terminator Armour, with a Conversion beamer and Cyclone ML. He would be a heavy Support option. But an Ironfather is a CC leader not a Devastator. Heavy Flamer or Assault cannon I could live with but Cyclone terminator missile launcher is a bit OTT!

In tabletop terms, you're correct.

What I'm pointing out is that, in fluff terms, there's no such thing as a 'heavy support Terminator'; or, to be more precise, Terminator armor is neither designed nor, as far as can be determined, commonly used for a long-range support role. A storm bolter is deliberately designed to be a rapid-fire, close-range weapon; if we compare a bolter to a standard battle rifle, a storm bolter is a submachine gun. They uniformly carry powerful, dedicated close-combat weapons as well; remember, even a basic power fist is terrifyingly potent, extremely rare, and requires specialized training to use effectively. Terminators are not hang-back-and-shoot units, they're assault shock troops, even when equipped with CMLs. Now, statistics on the tabletop seem somewhat conflicted about this; for instance, they give storm bolters only a slightly-higher ROF than a normal bolter, and a longer effective range. But when you look at the background, it seems clear that even Terminator heavy weapons were designed to be used on the move, in close-quarters, as a prelude to hand-to-hand combat.

Now; you might well expect that most people who took an Iron Father WOULDN'T take a CML, since as you mentioned that would be wasting his better close-combat stats. . . but why not give them the option? No real reason not to.

Okay, I will conceed your point that stopping people doing something stupid is against their human rights.

My real issue is can you name me any Space Marine Captain, or Special Character equivalent that sports a Heavy Weapon?

No, I don't think I can. Mostly they carry pure close-combat weaponry, though some of the special characters have a ranged weapon.

But if we're now arguing that we need to remove options that don't agree with the fluff, there are a lot of OTHER changes that need to be made in every single MEQ codex. . .

Hey nevermind, maybe this will work. It will certainly be fun to model a termie Captain with a Cyclone, now I need to find a willing opponent that will let me use Mariks codex .

mwnciboo wrote:An Iron Father (Captain/Chaplain) is a CC orientated character he is neither a Devastator Sergeant nor Captain of the Devastator Company. If he took a suit of TDA I would expect a SS + TH or PW or RB with extra options (Aux Grenade launcher) I would not expect him to be a Heavy Support Terminator with a Cyclone ML and a SB. Space HULK is neither here nor there, and if it were the case then Space Hulk (the original) never let your Captain have a heavy/assault weapon anyway! You are right about the TDA design idea for confined fights like tunnels and hulks.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Terminator_Armour#.TyA2D6VUzRM

It's not practical for an Iron Father to have a Cyclone, neither does it take advantage of his Initiative or number of attacks, a lightning Claw or PW would be more appropriate with a SS.

I would see an argument for an Iron Hand Techmarine in Terminator Armour, with a Conversion beamer and Cyclone ML. He would be a heavy Support option. But an Ironfather is a CC leader not a Devastator. Heavy Flamer or Assault cannon I could live with but Cyclone terminator missile launcher is a bit OTT!

I've been constantly re-reading the Iron Hands lore and there actually seems to be a difference between Captains (Iron Commanders) and Chaplains (Iron Fathers), so I've included both units in the army. Iron Commanders have the widest array of options as far as HQ units go, but really don't have any special rules apart from the normal stuff, where as Iron Fathers have less options but better special rules.

As for the verdict on the Terminator weapons, I've decided to include Heavy Flamers and Assault Cannons, but leave out Cyclone Missile Launchers. It has nothing to do with a lore standpoint but more to do with an army composition standpoint. Both weapons are fairly close range, so if you add the unit to, say, a Devastator squad, it's not really going to add any additional punch to that unit, but a CML gives them another volley of missiles and makes the squad that much more able to just decimate an entire unit at range.

The unit I'm most looking forward to designing right now is the Opus Machina Thane. Basically he's an Iron Thane or Magos that's gone completely overboard on the bionics and is essentially mostly machine. 40mm base, relentless, and some other nasty special rules. Should be a very interesting conversion piece (walker legs, tank legs, whatever your imagination can think up).

Just call him Vader and you're golden!

mwnciboo wrote:Okay, I will conceed your point that stopping people doing something stupid is against their human rights.

My real issue is can you name me any Space Marine Captain, or Special Character equivalent that sports a Heavy Weapon?

Huron Blackheart has a Heavy Flamer

Touche! Good call, any others? Plus he's renegade that marches to the tune of his own drum.

GKGM and Captains can takw Incinerators ( a heavy flamer with+1 str), a psilincer (like a psychic gatling gun) or a psycannon( an assault cannon with +1 str).

Subscribed.

Benn Bloodmane wrote:Subscribed.

Thanks!



Additionally, I found some juicy oldness I could potentially make new...ness. Legio Cybernetica units, anyone?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/8/8c/Robots.jpg

I like to think that an OM Thane should be mechanised, but still Marine-shaped, whilst an OM Magos should be shaped more "mechanically", like a Dreadnought...
kk i'll stop rambling now

I was reading a 4th Edition Black Templar Codex... They had 2 Wound techmarines with the option of TDA and a SS (including being able to have a servo arm with the TDA!). So thats another PF attack? Craziness but very interesting.

So I'm going to start running my IH's with 4th ed BT's and FAQ. The holy orb of antioch is insane.

I've been thinking long and hard about two things when working on this Codex: Terminators and Dreadnoughts.

After much debate and thought I've decided that Terminators will definitely be their own unit instead of simply being a Sergeant Upgrade. To me, from a lore standpoint, it doesn't make sense that a chapter which prides itself of its technological prowess and which probably has a fair number of personal Forges has such a low number of suits of Terminator armour. Thus Morlock Terminator squads are in, however they won't simply be just a bog-standard Terminator squad. You can keep them as a single unit OR you can break them up to lead other units, much like Space Wolves' Wolf Guard. They will also confer bonuses to the unit they join if they use this route as well.

Much like with Terminators, it didn't make much sense to me that Dreadnoughts were something that a forge-heavy chapter would be low on. I mean the Istavaan III Dropsite Massacre happened thousands of years ago, you'd think that with their forges and technical and engineering prowess they'd easily be able to regain their lost wargear in that time span, if not make an excess of them. For this reason, Dreadnoughts will not be rare in the Iron Hands. There willbe Medusa Dreadnoughts (aka Medusa Pattern Dreadnoughts) which can be taken as Elites or Heavy Support and will have different options depending on whether they were taken as Elites or Heavy Support.

With that said, however, I pose the following question to you all: do you think Iron Hands Dreadnoughts should function differently than normal Dreadnoughts?

Let me explain this question a bit. To a normal chapter Dreadnought, it is essentially what is left of a Space Marine piloting a vehicle. However, with an Iron Hand it isn't so much a vehicle as it is an extension of that Marine's body as most Iron Hands that are interred in a Dreadnought are little more than a brain heavily hardwired into the Dreadnought itself. Do you think this would bring them more in line with a normal set of attributes, kind of like a Nemesis Dreadknight, or do you think they should still be represented as vehicles?

I love your reasoning above.

On the subject of Dreadnoughts, maybe the IH would view a Dreadnought in much the same way that normal marines view a Chaplain?

e.g Maybe a special rule like re-roll to hit when within 12" or something?

The reason I say this is that the IH would be in total awe and complete devotion of a Dreadnought.

What would a Medusa Dreadnought be? Conversion Beamer with DCCW Lightning Claw? Or two Power fists and Magna Grapple ?

mwnciboo wrote:I love your reasoning above.

On the subject of Dreadnoughts, maybe the IH would view a Dreadnought in much the same way that normal marines view a Chaplain?

e.g Maybe a special rule like re-roll to hit when within 12" or something?

The reason I say this is that the IH would be in total awe and complete devotion of a Dreadnought.

What would a Medusa Dreadnought be? Conversion Beamer with DCCW Lightning Claw? Or two Power fists and Magna Grapple ?

Medusa Dreadnoughts basically have a wide variety of options available to them. If taken as an Elites they have a wide variety of close combat weapon options and extra wargear options. If taken as Heavy Support they have access to a lot more ranged weaponry. Also yes, Heavy Conversion Beamers are options.

What do you think about what I proposed about the Dreadnoughts? Do you think they should be treated as vehicles (with the normal three Armour Values) or more like a unit (with Toughness and Wounds)? I went into detail with it a bit more in my previous post.

Yeah sorry, I like the Nemesis Dread Idea. It's not so much a walker as an physical extension of an IH conciousness so I think you are spot on.

Well, just keeping them as dreads, albeit special ones, would be less likely to have people saying lolwut?.

Deadshot wrote:Well, just keeping them as dreads, albeit special ones, would be less likely to have people saying lolwut?.

Perhaps have them have the same appearance/look as Dreadnoughts but call them something else?

I think you can leave them vehicles, but remove stunned and shaken or any results that affect the crew.

The reasoning being that a Dreadnought should be immune to small arms fire (unlike an MC) and still vulnerable to a single shot from an AT weapon (unlike an MC).

But since the "crew" isn't a crew but is really a body, then remove stunned and shaken - I can't stun or shake your body.

I quite like that, except that it's not the body that gets stunned or shaken it's invariably the mind. The sheer shock of the whole thing, it's a survival thing to shut down all unnecessary functions when in shock (read sensory overload). As the pilot has a mind and is not an AI, then he would still suffer.

That aside, I still like the idea of an unshakable dreadnought, maybe you could call it the "INDOMITABLE" pattern or something. I think a Ironclad Dreadnought as a HQ choice would be a nice addition. It would mean you wouldn't need the MOTF to get the change to the FOC.

Well if super insane dreads like DCD get to ignore them.I don't see why Medusan ones can't provided there is a fluff explanatio.

Unit1126PLL wrote:I think you can leave them vehicles, but remove stunned and shaken or any results that affect the crew.

The reasoning being that a Dreadnought should be immune to small arms fire (unlike an MC) and still vulnerable to a single shot from an AT weapon (unlike an MC).

But since the "crew" isn't a crew but is really a body, then remove stunned and shaken - I can't stun or shake your body.

That sounds reasonable enough.