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Fetterkey wrote:Rare special cases and/or TFGs.

What makes them TFG in your book may I ask?

Hellfury wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Rare special cases and/or TFGs.

Just... wow.

this

i have bought a few finecast models, i run a coven DE list. in my boxes of wracks, not one of the models were perfect, some of the arms were downright unusable, and the only reason that i didn't get them replaced was that my GW store had run out of stock. my heamunculi were similarly flawed, missing finger, bubbles in annoying places, that kind of thing. but i decided that it wasn't worth the hassle and they were in inconspicuous places and i didn't have the time.

for a seperate project i bought an emperor's champion in finecast, he is missing a finger, has the corner of an elbow plate missing, and had several bubbles in the boots.

not one model i have bought has been perfect, not even close. just because we can fix these problems, doesn't mean we should have to. and talking to a staff member doesn't help, because they just get pissed off and threaten to kick you out if you start to complain about finecast. or they just say "that's what your liquid greenstuff is for" and "well it's a new product, there are bound to be teething problems"

it is a load of crap and there is no reason in the world that can make it acceptable

So people who complain about Finecast are TFG's?

Welcome to the ignore list.

WAAAAGGHH-god wrote:i have bought a few finecast models, i run a coven DE list. in my boxes of wracks, not one of the models were perfect, some of the arms were downright unusable, and the only reason that i didn't get them replaced was that my GW store had run out of stock.

So call them. The benefit of calling them is they send you a new one, while stores usually actually replace it taking the old models back. Calling them leaves you with the original, and usually fixable with a bit of work, model.

-Loki- wrote:

WAAAAGGHH-god wrote:i have bought a few finecast models, i run a coven DE list. in my boxes of wracks, not one of the models were perfect, some of the arms were downright unusable, and the only reason that i didn't get them replaced was that my GW store had run out of stock.

So call them. The benefit of calling them is they send you a new one, while stores usually actually replace it taking the old models back. Calling them leaves you with the original, and usually fixable with a bit of work, model.

Actually GW ask you to mail it back, even LGSs that have finecast have to send back the bad ones to get the new ones, the only way around it is GW stores where its full price, and certain managers will keep the old ones.

true, but unfortunately i'm one of the lazy ones that prefers to have a playable army on the table rather than spend oodles of time i don't have getting replacements that may or may not be as bad or worse as the models i already have.

Trust me I have a coven too, Im had to get 18 boxes of wracks to get 28 I liked. The grotesques though I havent got a single one yet that I liked and Im at 8 and counting from the first one bought.

WAAAAGGHH-god wrote:

not one model i have bought has been perfect, not even close. just because we can fix these problems, doesn't mean we should have to. and talking to a staff member doesn't help, because they just get pissed off and threaten to kick you out if you start to complain about finecast. or they just say "that's what your liquid greenstuff is for" and "well it's a new product, there are bound to be teething problems"

it is a load of crap and there is no reason in the world that can make it acceptable

Honestly dude, dont let them push you around, just say you're not happy with the mold and ask for an exchange, if they try and sell Liquid greenstuff tell them respectfully No, if they get uppity again just ask for to be exchanged, they continue call head office, ask for Andy and they get fired, problem solved.

GW fires pretty much everyone that gets a customer complaint, red/black shirts are so expendable its not funny, they rarely last more then 6 months anyway.

Howard A Treesong wrote:The only way we will know anything for sure os if someone leaks (because GW will never release) the data for their returns figures.

I've been making models a long time, and anecdotal as it is, I can't ever recall a product with this many reports of poor quality castings attached. Well there have been a few companies but they were known for producing stuff cheap and nasty, not at premium prices. I've examined Finecast stuff on the shelves and seen many with air bubbles, most could be repaired but I am dissatisfied in that I wouldn't generally look at ranks of metal figures and see the same numbers with problems of a similar level of difficulty to rectify.

There isn't much in this interview, but it does rather settle the argument as to whether the liquid greenstuff was released at an unfortunate time, or specifically for customers to correct the quality issues with their current miniatures.

I'm pretty sure that overall the product quality has gone down and there are a lot more castings I would deem unacceptable for GW prices. But I also have to assume that the bulk of their customer base simply don't care or don't have the experience to know what they should be able to expect from the highest standards of miniature casting. They either put up with it to have the miniatures they want, or just think it's okay and not worth complaining about. The number of customers GW lose due to finecast is small and doesn't affect their bottom line;, they are saving a lot of money by switching from metal and mostly concentrate on new customers who have no hobby experience anyway.

/thread

Ravenous D wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

WAAAAGGHH-god wrote:i have bought a few finecast models, i run a coven DE list. in my boxes of wracks, not one of the models were perfect, some of the arms were downright unusable, and the only reason that i didn't get them replaced was that my GW store had run out of stock.

So call them. The benefit of calling them is they send you a new one, while stores usually actually replace it taking the old models back. Calling them leaves you with the original, and usually fixable with a bit of work, model.

Actually GW ask you to mail it back, even LGSs that have finecast have to send back the bad ones to get the new ones, the only way around it is GW stores where its full price, and certain managers will keep the old ones.

QFT because then the store can write it off.

@Luna: QFT? Because you own a LGS and can provide documentary evidence? Or QFT because you want to stay on your bandwagon?

J.Black wrote:@Luna: QFT? Because you own a LGS and can provide documentary evidence? Or QFT because you want to stay on your bandwagon?

QFT because my GW manager also does that.

Please don't assume sir.

Ravenous D wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

WAAAAGGHH-god wrote:i have bought a few finecast models, i run a coven DE list. in my boxes of wracks, not one of the models were perfect, some of the arms were downright unusable, and the only reason that i didn't get them replaced was that my GW store had run out of stock.

So call them. The benefit of calling them is they send you a new one, while stores usually actually replace it taking the old models back. Calling them leaves you with the original, and usually fixable with a bit of work, model.

Actually GW ask you to mail it back, even LGSs that have finecast have to send back the bad ones to get the new ones, the only way around it is GW stores where its full price, and certain managers will keep the old ones.

Not all the time. I've only read occasional reports here about being asked to send it back. I've never been asked personally, neither has anyone I know.

Really?! Your local GW manager keeps other peoples returns for his own benefit and no-one has thought to tell HO what he's doing?

I can only assume from what you post..... You really expect me (or anyone else at that matter) to take what you say as gospel?

J.Black wrote:Really?! Your local GW manager keeps other peoples returns for his own benefit and no-one has thought to tell HO what he's doing?

I can only assume from what you post..... You really expect me (or anyone else at that matter) to take what you say as gospel?

I dont expect you to get bent out of shape since

1) that is what they do
2) whats the big deal?

Customer gets bad cast, brings it do store.

Manager replace it with new one, throws bad cast into a box. Customer walks out with a new box.

If you are implying I need to make anything up , that is very offending on a personal level.

LunaHound wrote:I dont expect you to get bent out of shape since

Well, good... because I won't

1) that is what they do

Evidence please? You are accusing someone of fraud.

2) whats the big deal?

You are accusing someone of fraud, albeit via the internet, and you don't have and evidence to back it up.

Customer gets bad cast, brings it do store.

Manager replace it with new one, throws bad cast into a box. Customer walks out with a new box.

The customer just walks away from that? It only took one new box to replace the flaws in finecast?!

If you are implying I need to make anything up , that is very offending on a personal level.

You get offended when someone asks you to provide evidence for your claims? Thank feth you aren't involved in anything other than painting toy soldiers.....

J.Black wrote:You get offended when someone asks you to provide evidence for your claims? Thank feth ( that is a F word if the filter didnt help ) you aren't involved in anything other than painting toy soldiers.....

No, I get offended because:

1) You make personal attacks like above
2) And because you accuse me of doing so for bandwagoning

J.Black wrote:@Luna: QFT? Because you own a LGS and can provide documentary evidence? Or QFT because you want to stay on your bandwagon?

And then

J.Black wrote:You really expect me (or anyone else at that matter) to take what you say as gospel?

Your tone so far has been extremely rude while Im just posting what I know. So if you want to explain your aggression I will hear you out.

Okay, y'all need to settle down in here, before I have to reach for a bigger hammer. Accusations of lying are generally rude, and as such usually a violation of Dakka's posting rules.

Yeah..... There's too much crap out there to dismiss it as a minority problem

Has anyone tried to put all the bad reviews on the web into some kind of order? Most of the things I read about finecast have been restricted to a limited amount of models. i.e. there are issues with some sculpts but not others

I am 27/1 in terms of good finecast to bad (and by good I mean I have only needed to do flash-removal/slight bubble-fixing. Not any sculpting work). FWIW, that seems to be a pretty good success rate.

J.Black wrote:

Evidence please? You are accusing someone of fraud.

Hate to tell you this, this had been GW SOP since about day one. If a customer get a miscast or unacceptable model GW used to replace it no questions asked. The miscast stuff went into the 'store bits box/writeoff box' and was used for stuff such as store armies, if it was a vehicle kit that was buggered it might be made into terrain, often stuff found it's way into staff members 'store armies' and personal armies. I should know as when I worked there I was in charge of salvaging the miscast metal models ( I love working with metal models) if possible for store/personal use. We wont even get into the time I had to give up 45 SM beakie heads to the regional manager for his army on tour =o\

Really Black, please please know what you are talking about before you go accusing people of theft.

LunaHound wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:No one in the finecast argument, either side, has yet to produce actual numbers to prove their point either way.

Nobody against fine cast can do anything more than present pictures from multiple sources that make up an unknown quantity of miscasts. (vocal minority syndrome etc.)

Nobody defending GW can produce a single iota of evidence providing us with any clear indication as to how much of the FC shenanigans are internet rage vs. actual rage.

Neither party can produce the proper evidence, nor will either side ever be able to without access to GW inventory, customer service, and quality control files. If neither side can prove their point without anecdotal evidence, guess work, conjecture, or any of the other myriad means being utilized in this thread and the numerous other FC hate threads then why are we still talking about this?

I still don't understand why this is a separate thread or why these are allowed to go on for as long as they do when neither side gets anywhere or produces anything remotely resembling factual evidence to prove their point.

So I would like to know what you call the people that has proof of getting 8-10+ replacement and counting,
on failcast they bought.

Anecdotal evidence not hard statistical evidence of a large company wide production problem. Polls on Dakka and Warseer would hardly count as good statistical data either, any pollster worth their weight in campaign or lobbying money could tell you that.

Statistical evidence for either side of the argument would entail much more than "people that has proof of getting 8-10+ replacement and counting".

Please bear in mind I have no real opinion on the issue of FC, I take issue with the way the two side are arguing without really attempting to prove their point in any factual way. I only like it because it isn't metal, when I get one that is miscast I send it back. I find it neither amazingly great nor abhorrently evil. Those wishing to argue either side, and it appears those are the only sides almost, should at least try to compile real numbers to support their point besides "people that has proof of getting 8-10+ replacement and counting".

OverwatchCNC wrote:
Statistical evidence for either side of the argument would entail much more than "people that has proof of getting 8-10+ replacement and counting".

Please bear in mind I have no real opinion on the issue of FC, I take issue with the way the two side are arguing without really attempting to prove their point in any factual way. I only like it because it isn't metal, when I get one that is miscast I send it back. I find it neither amazingly great nor abhorrently evil. Those wishing to argue either side, and it appears those are the only sides almost, should at least try to compile real numbers to support their point besides "people that has proof of getting 8-10+ replacement and counting".

And yet, that information is not something that anyone is privy to, outside of GW. I doubt we'll ever get that information, for one side or the other. So, in the absence of those hard-and-fast statistical numbers, we must look to the next best thing - empirical experience. When someone bought a Necron Lord, decided to return it and then receives 9 other replacements in similar condition or worse, that is proof that something is wrong. When the same flaws show up in separate models (indicating a problem with the material, the casting process, or QC), then again, something is wrong. And when you're not provided with the factual numbers either way, it is irresponsible to not at least listen to the people trying to give you reviews with pictures to back them up.

In the absence of data from GW, data from the fanbase is the best we have to go on. Yes, you have to realize that there are decent casts as well as horrible casts. If we could just see some of the decent casts being reviewed (or pictures of them right out of the clamshell from posters on Dakka that defend the material), then that would certainly even the keel a bit.

Edit: You also have to realize that the people against Finecast, like myself, aren't just miffed about the material itself. It is the entire release. It is not one thing or the other, it is everything combined. That is why there is so much ire. Drastic price increase, flimsier material, replaced models that didn't need replacing, and the Finecast propoganda that came along with it. Then, as if that wasn't enough, they released products to fix their mistakes, that you must, in turn, pay more money for. These issues expand well beyond a few pinholes and pock marks.

puma713 wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:
Statistical evidence for either side of the argument would entail much more than "people that has proof of getting 8-10+ replacement and counting".

Please bear in mind I have no real opinion on the issue of FC, I take issue with the way the two side are arguing without really attempting to prove their point in any factual way. I only like it because it isn't metal, when I get one that is miscast I send it back. I find it neither amazingly great nor abhorrently evil. Those wishing to argue either side, and it appears those are the only sides almost, should at least try to compile real numbers to support their point besides "people that has proof of getting 8-10+ replacement and counting".

And yet, that information is not something that anyone is privy to, outside of GW. I doubt we'll ever get that information, for one side or the other. So, in the absence of those hard-and-fast statistical numbers, we must look to the next best thing - empirical experience. When someone bought a Necron Lord, decided to return it and then receives 9 other replacements in similar condition or worse, that is proof that something is wrong. When the same flaws show up in separate models (indicating a problem with the material, the casting process, or QC), then again, something is wrong. And when you're not provided with the factual numbers either way, it is irresponsible to not at least listen to the people trying to give you reviews with pictures to back them up.

In the absence of data from GW, data from the fanbase is the best we have to go on. Yes, you have to realize that there are decent casts as well as horrible casts. If we could just see some of the decent casts being reviewed (or pictures of them right out of the clamshell from posters on Dakka that defend the material), then that would certainly even the keel a bit.

Edit: You also have to realize that the people against Finecast, like myself, aren't just miffed about the material itself. It is the entire release. It is not one thing or the other, it is everything combined. That is why there is so much ire. Drastic price increase, flimsier material, replaced models that didn't need replacing, and the Finecast propoganda that came along with it. Then, as if that wasn't enough, they released products to fix their mistakes, that you must, in turn, pay more money for. These issues expand well beyond a few pinholes and pock marks.

The problem with the empirical evidence bent is just that. I bought 6 Hive Guard, only one had an issue. I bought Coteaz, no issues. Librarian in terminator armor 1 bubble, slightly bent staff. Logan Grimnar no problems. Chaplain with Jump Pack no problems. Why didn't I take a bunch of pictures and post them here or on my blog? For the same reason no one else does, people who get what they paid for aren't upset. Those who don't get what they believed they paid for get really mad and rage all over the internet, hence the vocal minority. I am in no way saying people who have to get 9 or more replacement models prior to getting a good one have no reason to be upset. What I am saying is be careful you don't listen too much or too often to the squeaky wheel in the absence of real data.

Also, I am saying we clearly didn't need another thread on this and that both sides are being silly.

So, getting back to the OP.

I just wanted to say what an informative interview.
Thanks Andre...

puma713 wrote:And yet, that information is not something that anyone is privy to, outside of GW. I doubt we'll ever get that information, for one side or the other.

We do have the statement from the last Financials, which said that they had a 2% return rate.

That's still somewhat flawed as accurate data (for starters, we have no way of knowing whether that 2% includes repeat replacements as a single return)... but does paint a pretty horrific picture. As mentioned earlier, most manufacturers would find a 1% error rate to be completely unacceptable. A 2% return rate means an error rate quite a bit higher, as for various reasons a lot of people aren't going to bother returning models with minor flaws... Some won't even return models with major flaws, either because they don't realising they can (which is surprisingly common still) or because they just couldn't be bothered, or don't mind repairing it themselves.

It's quite clear that not all Finecast is bad... but for most companies a manufacturing error rate that, based on a 2% return is could quite possibly be up around the 10-20% mark would be cause for a great deal of wailing and gnashing of teeth at the head office level.

@ insaniak, does the return rate means refund? ( i dont know )

If not, could that means aslong as they exchange it, it wont show up as part of the % ( aka writing off ) ?

I have avoided finecast so I don't have much experience with it but the models I have built were perfectly fine.

I am in the same situation as rockerbikie.

I do not own any Finecost minis (nor do I intend to own any), and my experience comes with friends who have bought some. Most of them have been fine. One of those was a 25th Ann Marine... although he did buy it off eBay and specifically looked for a 'good quality' auction.

Of course I'm not about to ignore reality and pretend the rampant problems don't exist.

OverwatchCNC wrote:
The problem with the empirical evidence bent is just that. I bought 6 Hive Guard, only one had an issue. I bought Coteaz, no issues. Librarian in terminator armor 1 bubble, slightly bent staff. Logan Grimnar no problems. Chaplain with Jump Pack no problems. Why didn't I take a bunch of pictures and post them here or on my blog? For the same reason no one else does, people who get what they paid for aren't upset. Those who don't get what they believed they paid for get really mad and rage all over the internet, hence the vocal minority. I am in no way saying people who have to get 9 or more replacement models prior to getting a good one have no reason to be upset. What I am saying is be careful you don't listen too much or too often to the squeaky wheel in the absence of real data.

Also, I am saying we clearly didn't need another thread on this and that both sides are being silly.

And yet, with all those great and flawless models, you can't be bothered to post a single picture of them online to show them... Yeah, like the guy who claimed that he also had a bubbled GW metal model, I call BS on those claims.

PhantomViper wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:
The problem with the empirical evidence bent is just that. I bought 6 Hive Guard, only one had an issue. I bought Coteaz, no issues. Librarian in terminator armor 1 bubble, slightly bent staff. Logan Grimnar no problems. Chaplain with Jump Pack no problems. Why didn't I take a bunch of pictures and post them here or on my blog? For the same reason no one else does, people who get what they paid for aren't upset. Those who don't get what they believed they paid for get really mad and rage all over the internet, hence the vocal minority. I am in no way saying people who have to get 9 or more replacement models prior to getting a good one have no reason to be upset. What I am saying is be careful you don't listen too much or too often to the squeaky wheel in the absence of real data.

Also, I am saying we clearly didn't need another thread on this and that both sides are being silly.

And yet, with all those great and flawless models, you can't be bothered to post a single picture of them online to show them... Yeah, like the guy who claimed that he also had a bubbled GW metal model, I call BS on those claims.

He explained, perfectly reasonably, why he did not though.

If I buy a family car that functions perfectly and looks nice, I'm not going to post it up on the internet much.

If I buy a family car that is missing one cylinder and only has two gears in its transmission, I'm going to post all over everywhere saying to watch out for that manufacturer.

Seems reasonable to me.

EDIT:

It's like that "Finger-in-the-Wendy's-chili" thing. Should we assume all Wendy's chilis have fingers in them because no one posted up repeated proof of regular, tasty chili?
OR
Should we simply assume that regular, tasty chili was expected, and therefore not special enough to post about?

Unit1126PLL wrote:
He explained, perfectly reasonably, why he did not though.

If I buy a family car that functions perfectly and looks nice, I'm not going to post it up on the internet much.

If I buy a family car that is missing one cylinder and only has two gears in its transmission, I'm going to post all over everywhere saying to watch out for that manufacturer.

Seems reasonable to me.

EDIT:

It's like that "Finger-in-the-Wendy's-chili" thing. Should we assume all Wendy's chilis have fingers in them because no one posted up repeated proof of regular, tasty chili?
OR
Should we simply assume that regular, tasty chili was expected, and therefore not special enough to post about?

Except that when you are trying to prove something, actual, you know, proof, might help your case!

What he is saying is: "all those bad reviews and pictures of flawed failcrap miniatures are just anecdotal evidence and should be disregarded! But you should totally take my word for it that all the failcrap models I got where absolutely flawless..."

Yeah... that doesn't really work like that. You white knights wan't to disprove all the photographic evidence laying around on "the internets"? Start posting some of your own!

And where is this "all reviews on the internet about anything are bad" is coming from? I started playing Infinity and Malifaux specifically due to good reviews that those games got! I bought my new motorbike because of good reviews that I read on the internet! I regularly watch movies and TV shows because of good reviews on the internet! Where are all the good Failcrap reviews?