Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

EDIT:

It's like that "Finger-in-the-Wendy's-chili" thing. Should we assume all Wendy's chilis have fingers in them because no one posted up repeated proof of regular, tasty chili?
OR
Should we simply assume that regular, tasty chili was expected, and therefore not special enough to post about?

But when 100 - 200 fingers are found, one starts wondering what kind of idiot is serving the chilli. And also who is losing the fingers.

Howard A Treesong wrote:The only way we will know anything for sure os if someone leaks (because GW will never release) the data for their returns figures.

I've been making models a long time, and anecdotal as it is, I can't ever recall a product with this many reports of poor quality castings attached. Well there have been a few companies but they were known for producing stuff cheap and nasty, not at premium prices. I've examined Finecast stuff on the shelves and seen many with air bubbles, most could be repaired but I am dissatisfied in that I wouldn't generally look at ranks of metal figures and see the same numbers with problems of a similar level of difficulty to rectify.

There isn't much in this interview, but it does rather settle the argument as to whether the liquid greenstuff was released at an unfortunate time, or specifically for customers to correct the quality issues with their current miniatures.

I'm pretty sure that overall the product quality has gone down and there are a lot more castings I would deem unacceptable for GW prices. But I also have to assume that the bulk of their customer base simply don't care or don't have the experience to know what they should be able to expect from the highest standards of miniature casting. They either put up with it to have the miniatures they want, or just think it's okay and not worth complaining about. The number of customers GW lose due to finecast is small and doesn't affect their bottom line;, they are saving a lot of money by switching from metal and mostly concentrate on new customers who have no hobby experience anyway.

I think this post bears repeating again.

A few months (perhaps 6 months) of production flaw might have been acceptable. But most certainly not a year, that there are still threads coming like this I think is a dreadful shame.

However, I think now the issue is not whether or not the FC rate of failure is acceptable or not (perhaps 2 guys in this thread are arguing that it is, and obviously aren't going to be convinced otherwise), but what if anything can the fan community do to change the situation?

Part of me thinks that I am fortunate not to live in a miniature-wargaming monopoly - their are plenty of other attractive propositions in the market. But on the other hand, I think it is such a shame that GW's standards have fallen so low that this problem continues. I want GW to continue to make miniatures and games for them, and as much as I dislike some of their current strategies and contempt for the fan base, of course I remember when this was not the case and they thought about things other than the bottom line; like about having some pride in both the miniatures they released and the rules they made for them. Perhaps the heart and soul of the company can be found once again?

I think everyone who has had a poor FC experience should put it in writing to GW. Not email, but printed letter. Away from the sales department and evil Montgomery Burns-types sat cackling in head office, I genuinely believe there is a core of people at the heart of the company that like the same things we do, and must surely feel the same way. Perhaps it is possible to enact change.

It's true. As I said earlier, I've had my bad Finecast experiences.

Ravenous D wrote:

WAAAAGGHH-god wrote:

not one model i have bought has been perfect, not even close. just because we can fix these problems, doesn't mean we should have to. and talking to a staff member doesn't help, because they just get pissed off and threaten to kick you out if you start to complain about finecast. or they just say "that's what your liquid greenstuff is for" and "well it's a new product, there are bound to be teething problems"

it is a load of crap and there is no reason in the world that can make it acceptable

Honestly dude, dont let them push you around, just say you're not happy with the mold and ask for an exchange, if they try and sell Liquid greenstuff tell them respectfully No, if they get uppity again just ask for to be exchanged, they continue call head office, ask for Andy and they get fired, problem solved.

GW fires pretty much everyone that gets a customer complaint, red/black shirts are so expendable its not funny, they rarely last more then 6 months anyway.

This really needs addressing. WAAAAGGHH-god appears to be from the UK, where the amount of independent stores can be counted on one hand. So, GW has caught a lot of people between a rock and a hard place. I would not be surprised if this is his only outlet for gaming and is having to "put up or shut up" simply because there is nowhere else to play wargames locally.

Whilst I personally would go the HO route also (like a friend of mine did with a problem staffer) as GW's high street dominance in the UK has bred a certain cult of personality in their stores where if you're seen as a "problem" regular customer (you know the kind, the one who dares post on forums like Dakka. ) you cannot say anything for fear of getting kicked out or banned, so most people keep their gob shut as they have no other place to play. Obviously not all stores are like this, but I've seen this in effect in a few I've been a regular at and the tone is not unlike that of North Korea.

Here in the UK there is a much stronger club culture of wargaming.

People aren't really dependant on GW high street shops, or they needn't be if they don't want to.

For instance in Reading, where I live now, there are two local clubs big enough to run their own wargame shows, and a club at the university, and an independent shop which runs games nights, as well as a GW.

Better is to just up and not buy the faulty product, or we need to start talking class action lawsuit.

Because they are either intnetionally producing craptasticly faulted minis, or are trying to spin themselves out of an unaccetable position.


Either or, the material that they are using to produce this crap is unacceptable, and this guy pretty much is giving you the corperation spin of how to "Fix it yourself".

liquid greenstuff? really? When I already had an acceptable alternative with plastic or resin minis in the first place?


The point of the matter is that people have been casting with resin for over 20 years or so already. Alot of the mix has been for generally large scale models- Titans, tanks, scenery, etc. When they cast figures in the resin, you can see the visconsity diferental with the issue of "Bubbles"

The point of mixs of the resin is the issue at hand. They are trying to use the cheaper alternative to stay in the same amount of production, while lowering production costs.

Tell GW that the mix is crap. fix that issue and reconstitute the models to an acceptable level.

I pay 45.00 for a model, I am already getting hosed. That crap is produced for 10-20 bucks on end. NOT worth it in any amount of kol aid.

Those nicks, "Bubbles," gaps, miscasts, etc. are in point of fact unacceptable.

Continue to send them back, so that GW can spend 5X the overhead to maybe cast an acceptable sculpt.



The answer to the issue of Finecast is that they are using that B.S. mixture of the rubbery goo. If they use the same type as some of the later ones I've seen, that issue of the air pockets, the reduction in quality, and the early jokes they came out with will disappear.

I have been tooling around with a couple of types odf that plastic, and based on what I see, they need to add in a little more of that resin base, and reduce the amount of the stablizer.

That crap they are using is either latex based, or it is synthetic based. TOO darned soft for the task. I might as well be casting those figures in the same sort of plastic as Green Army men. At least Marx could get the casting damn near perfect.

Tell GW to stop using that crap.

We haven't even discussed how long these substandard figures are going to last for. How long before the details start rubbing down and eroding? Soft stuff like that? give it a year, tops.

GW aren't deliberately making bad models -- why would they?

More likely there are simply inherent pitfalls in the Finecast production process that cause a higher rate of defects than found in normal metal or polystyrene casting.

The Finecast process is a cunning method to spin cast resin with the machinery for spin casting metal. It was intended to allow GW to switch to the cheaper material without spending the money for new equipment. It isn't unlikely that a bastard process like that results in a higher rate of defects.

That said, I went to my local GW at lunchtime and had a look at the Finecast blisters. Only a few seemed to have defects and they were small defects. So probably the Liquid Green Stuff would have been fine for fixing them. Certainly the defect rate seemed lower than when I looked last autumn.

Obviously I couldn't open the larger boxed kits to look at them.

Kilkrazy wrote:
More likely there are simply inherent pitfalls in the Finecast production process that cause a higher rate of defects than found in normal metal or polystyrene casting.

or normal resin casting?

PhantomViper wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:
The problem with the empirical evidence bent is just that. I bought 6 Hive Guard, only one had an issue. I bought Coteaz, no issues. Librarian in terminator armor 1 bubble, slightly bent staff. Logan Grimnar no problems. Chaplain with Jump Pack no problems. Why didn't I take a bunch of pictures and post them here or on my blog? For the same reason no one else does, people who get what they paid for aren't upset. Those who don't get what they believed they paid for get really mad and rage all over the internet, hence the vocal minority. I am in no way saying people who have to get 9 or more replacement models prior to getting a good one have no reason to be upset. What I am saying is be careful you don't listen too much or too often to the squeaky wheel in the absence of real data.

Also, I am saying we clearly didn't need another thread on this and that both sides are being silly.

And yet, with all those great and flawless models, you can't be bothered to post a single picture of them online to show them... Yeah, like the guy who claimed that he also had a bubbled GW metal model, I call BS on those claims.

If I have time today I will take pictures of Logan and the Jump Pack Chaplin. They are not painted.

Overwatch, why even reply to the guy?

Certainly don't waste your own precious time digging your models out taking pictures, nobody else thinks your talking gak anyway!

As the people with common sense have stated, clearly there are good and bad models. If a guy is demanding "proof" of a good model, when no doubt a couple hundred thousand exist, I wouldn't waste my time with him.

Oh good you're here...

OverwatchCNC wrote:*snip*

The models look great. Unfortunately, painted models don't help. The negative reviews are coming from models right out of the blister. That's what we need to see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh good you're here...

Once again, all these pictures make me glad that most of the stores here still have some metals left in stock.

In fact, since it's payday, I think I'll go grab a couple I've been wanting.

GBL wrote:

EDIT:

It's like that "Finger-in-the-Wendy's-chili" thing. Should we assume all Wendy's chilis have fingers in them because no one posted up repeated proof of regular, tasty chili?
OR
Should we simply assume that regular, tasty chili was expected, and therefore not special enough to post about?

But when 100 - 200 fingers are found, one starts wondering what kind of idiot is serving the chilli. And also who is losing the fingers.

Or it's time to rethink the "bring a leper to work" policy.

mattyrm wrote: Overwatch, why even reply to the guy?

Certainly don't waste your own precious time digging your models out taking pictures, nobody else thinks your talking gak anyway!

As the people with common sense have stated, clearly there are good and bad models. If a guy is demanding "proof" of a good model, when no doubt a couple hundred thousand exist, I wouldn't waste my time with him.

Hi Welcome. =o]

zinge wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
More likely there are simply inherent pitfalls in the Finecast production process that cause a higher rate of defects than found in normal metal or polystyrene casting.

or normal resin casting?

Maybe, though normal resin isn't a good material to cast wargame figures, because it's too fragile for normal tabletop handling. Resin casters use a vacuum process to help get bubbles out of the moulds.

On topic, Liquid Green Stuff is meant as a general-purpose filler, and has applications beyond fixing Finecast air bubbles. For example, it would be incredibly handy for anyone with a metal Hive Tyrant, as the torso doesn't fit together too well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And anyway, the miscasts are what gives Finecast it's delicious, light, bubbly texture!

And OverwatchONC, you are a great painter.

Just bought my first finecast model, tyranid hiveguard. Missing a part and lots of bubbles on pointy areas where you cant just fill it in. Will NEVER buy finecast again.

off with their heads!

Necroshea wrote:Lol, so in other words at the end the guy is saying "Yeah some bubbles show up but that's not a big deal. Just buy our overpriced liquid putty and fix it yourself"

Howz about no GW

I believe the first response to this thread is really the only one necessary.

To everyone supporting Finecast, think about it, we didn't have threads called " Metal Miniature Miscast Collection" or " I've been having a lot of issues with these plastic miniatures, any suggestions?"

LordTyphus wrote:To everyone supporting Finecast, think about it, we didn't have threads called " Metal Miniature Miscast Collection" or " I've been having a lot of issues with these plastic miniatures, any suggestions?"

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/298664.page (Plastic Miscasts)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/245169.page (Metal Miscasts, I love this quote:
"I refuse to buy anything metal nowadays because of my bad luck in the past. I always managed to get replacements but it's just the hassle of it I would rather avoid. "
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/222436.page?userfilterid=5421 (50% miscasting on some metal kits)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/218722.page?userfilterid=6826 (TFC Miscast woes)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/255115.page (Plastic miscasts)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/241725.page (Greatswords and miscast plastic)

And that's just Dakka. So yeah, it might not be as concentrated as Finecast threads, but there have always been miscast whine threads.

I've had miscasts in all materials. Replacements have usually been fine though. I don't have a problem with *occasional* screwups, and GW CS is excellent. Borked Termie head on a SpaceHulk 'stealer - new sprue, some free 'stealers, no problem. Dodgy marine backpack - swapped in shop, no problem. Forgeworld dodgy bits - replacements sent out. Heck, the two left claws I got for my Carmine dragon were sorted out by swapping in shop at WHW. No issues at all (other than waiting on some bits from FW).

However when they don't *have* good replacements to send out there's very little they can do to keep customers who want a decent product happy.

This.

Also, note that on the second thread, one of the responses is "metal models will never be perfect".

Finecast is made using the same centrifugal casting method as metal models. Therefore Finecast is not going to be perfect either. Now you could argue that they should use a different casting method, but let's face it, that would cost a fortune. Therefore prices would rise, and people would still complain.

Prices rose anyway despite cheaper materials. That's a big part of why people are still complaining.

Wearing my business man hat I fully understand why GW wanted to get metal out of their supply chain without having to transition everything to expensive injection moulds.

pretre wrote:

LordTyphus wrote:To everyone supporting Finecast, think about it, we didn't have threads called " Metal Miniature Miscast Collection" or " I've been having a lot of issues with these plastic miniatures, any suggestions?"

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/298664.page (Plastic Miscasts)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/245169.page (Metal Miscasts, I love this quote:
"I refuse to buy anything metal nowadays because of my bad luck in the past. I always managed to get replacements but it's just the hassle of it I would rather avoid. "
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/222436.page?userfilterid=5421 (50% miscasting on some metal kits)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/218722.page?userfilterid=6826 (TFC Miscast woes)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/255115.page (Plastic miscasts)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/241725.page (Greatswords and miscast plastic)

And that's just Dakka. So yeah, it might not be as concentrated as Finecast threads, but there have always been miscast whine threads.

It's completely disproportionate however. It's like someone replying to a 'travel by road in India is dangerous' thread by saying, "well look at Denmark, they have x number of traffic accidents a year as well".

Of course there have been miscasts with metal and plastic, but not one of those threads is more than a few pages in length. We've now had at least one 'Finecast miscast' thread (70 pages +) which has been sat at the top of Dakka Discussions for more than a year now. Certainly, in the 20 years + I have been playing wargames, even away from the internet community it's the first time I've heard casual talk of this kind of thing at my club, and generally widespread condemnation. Guys who are perhaps not sufficiently into wargaming to be a member of a forum, but nevertheless to whom it is obvious that the quality is not what it should be.
It's moved beyond the joke stage I think.

There is a very real problem with the production methods GW are using for FC - several people who work within the industry, as well as in garage businesses, have commented on it and the evidence for it. Until steps are made to address these then the complaints will continue, and it's right that they should.

I didn't contend that the threads are as long or that there aren't problems with Finecast; I was merely combatting his untrue assertion that people didn't complain about Metal and Plastic miscasts with 'I'm having a lot of problems with X' threads.

The issue is one of scale, primarily.

Forgeworld use a similar resin, and similar technique for some items, at a much smaller production scale. They have fewer issues.

The process simply does not scale up to the level that GW needs for it's distribution model (centralised production, but global, simultaneous releases to market). They've outgrown it.

To improve quality, production levels must be lowered. This means either significantly more warehousing is needed to build up stock to the point where releases are scheduled (expensive!) or allowing very limited retail release and dealing only with mail order, pretty much cast-to-order. Hugely expensive. The final alternative is a dual production - one at high quality, reserved for replacements / complaints and one at 'standard' quality, which the less picky consumers may accept. That however, probably breaches several trading standards laws, and is certainly morally dubious.

Other than that, more localised production (UK, US, Possibly Asia/AUS) to cut down on distribution costs (but at a cost for production facilities/staff).

I don't see any changes coming. For the company, I think it's working as intended. Any increase in quality whilst using the process as it stands can only be accompanied by a significant increase in production cost, which you can bet would be passed on to the customer, rather than swallowed in the savings from the cheaper material.

They are rushing production, I think that is evident from the twisted casts or those where the sprue is deformed. They are being pulled out of the mould before the resin has set.

They could slow down the production process without impacting the volume manufactured if they bought more casting machines and hired some more staff. One wonders why after nearly a year with Finecast problems they don't want to invest long-term in this manner.

I dunno if they're already at capacity for the staff they have. The car park is usually rammed. I don't work there or anything, but am often at WHW / Lenton as it's my preferred store.