Games Workshop's Finecast Transition

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**reds8n**

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/22622.html

Cv2 caught up with Games Workshop’s Trade Manager Andre Kieran at the GAMA Trade Show and asked him about GW’s progress in converting its huge line of miniatures with the new Citadel Finecast Resin process, and the direction that the leading tabletop game publisher was going with its extensive line of miniatures.

Could you explain Finecast and how it fits into your program?
Andre Kieran: “It’s centrifically-cast resin—and what we are doing is for new launches going forward, like character models, special figures, those miniatures are now being made with this new resin. You can see the detail, it’s definitely a big step forward and we are very excited about it.”

So going forward this resin will replace white metal won’t it?
Yes that’s right. We do have a backlog of things like Battle Fleet Gothic and Blood Bowl with metal miniatures that we still manufacture, that we still make available, that are made in metal. A lot of times those things don’t come in packaging now. We still make them, because we think they are cool, but they might come in a baggie or a plain white box.

Well then, is it safe to say that you are phasing those metal minis out?
Yeah, I think that Citadel Finecast is definitely the future of what we are doing with those special figures.

How’s the reaction to the Finecast, we heard last summer that there were some issues?
Good question, what we had early on, we had some rumors about the melting temperature of the resin figures. But that’s not the case. It has a similar melting temperature to our plastic models. We have been working very hard on the quality. The Finecast product has been on the market for nine months. When you are casting resin, the process can involve air bubbles and things of that nature, so we launched a product this fall called “Liquid Green Stuff,” which is for filling small detail gaps, and that product along with a brush, a hobby brush that is like a toothbrush almost, can be used to cover any blemishes. You can definitely see what we are trying to achieve, a much more detailed miniature that is lighter in weight and much easier to do conversions with, similar to our plastic models.

Not exactly and in depth interrogation but there you go. More surprised to see GW actually speaking out on the topic.

.. has it really been 9 months already ? For one reason or another it seems longer.

**Necroshea**

Lol, so in other words at the end the guy is saying "Yeah some bubbles show up but that's not a big deal. Just buy our overpriced liquid putty and fix it yourself"

Howz about no GW

**filbert**

Standard cut/paste marketing speak really. Agree with the above, no real addressing of the reported issues but then again, I'm not sure one could expect any different from a GW corporate suit. I am surprised that someone got an 'official' interview outside of WD, however.

**insaniak**

When you are casting resin, the process can involve air bubbles and things of that nature, ...

The process can, yes. And then your quality control kicks in, and you bin those models and just sell the good casts.

Selling them for premium prices and then expecting your customers to buy another product to fix miniatures that shouldn't need fixing in the first place?

Madness. Utter, utter madness.

Here's the thing, GW: Saying 'Resin can have air bubbles' is not an excuse for selling flawed product. Any casting medium has the potential for casting defects. If you can't figure out how to cast in that medium without flawed results you're doing it wrong.

**Gorechild**

insaniak wrote:Selling them for premium prices and then expecting your customers to buy another product to fix miniatures that shouldn't need fixing in the first place?

Madness. Utter, utter madness.

Here's the thing, GW: Saying 'Resin can have air bubbles' is not an excuse for selling flawed product. Any casting medium has the potential for casting defects. If you can't figure out how to cast in that medium without flawed results you're doing it wrong.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

**-Loki-**

Okay, I concede the point. Liquid Green Stuff didn't just have an atrocious release date.

**BrookM**

As mentioned elsewhere, it feels to me that more questions were asked, but most likely answered with a standard "Sorry, can't answer that" reply.

**Bezerker Saberhagen**

insaniak wrote:The process can, yes. And then your quality control kicks in, and you bin those models and just sell the good casts.

No because that's not what quality assurance is for. The old adage is: "You can't inspect quality into a product".

QA processes are too unreliable and in a large scale, costly to be commercially viable as a quality generating process. The point of QA is to do enough tests to detect persistent defects coming out of the manufacturing processes and then shut down the manufactuiring, fix the problems and restart it with an acceptable defect rate, usually dumping the failed batch entirely.

insaniak wrote:Here's the thing, GW: Saying 'Resin can have air bubbles' is not an excuse for selling flawed product. Any casting medium has the potential for casting defects. If you can't figure out how to cast in that medium without flawed results you're doing it wrong.

More true. AFAIK finecast is something of a special resin/manufacturing process that was specifically intended to work as a "drop in" replacement for the pewter casting with as little rework on the molds as possible. (especially important for the low demand casts). The problem is that they went for a "big bang" introduction, entirely scrapping their metal casting lines and now that the drop-in replacement hasn't turned out to be successful they have nothing to fall back on.

We may need to face the possibility that GW's hope of finding a straight resin replacement for their metal line is actually technically, physically or economically impossible. In which case we can expect this to run for years while they gradually replace their scupts and casts with new resin friendly models.

**Kilkrazy**

I cast 66 snake bases for my Termagants using resin and only had one with air bubbles. And that was the first test piece. I had never used resin before.

It's a very simple one piece moulding, but to fair to myself, I'm not a 120 million GBP corporation with 30 years experience in model figure manufacturing.

**cvtuttle**

Oh god - here we go again...

**Ravenous D**

He used "excited" which is GW for "flaming ball of crap".

**OverwatchCNC**

I undstand this was posted by a mod but doesn't this really belong in one of the ongoing threads about the failure(s) of fine cast? Do we really need another thread about this?

**kryczek**

I treat all comments from corporations with the apathy with which they treat us as consumers.
All people who work for these corporations need to toe the party line so to speak. I even need to do it in my own job sometimes. So i dont hate on these comments or the people making them.

In regard to there product and indeed all products the proof is in the pudding. The fact were on here discussing/complaining about there product shows there is a problem with it.

insaniak wrote:Selling them for premium prices and then expecting your customers to buy another product to fix miniatures that shouldn't need fixing in the first place?

Madness. Utter, utter madness.

spot on mate.

**Chowderhead**

OverwatchCNC wrote:I undstand this was posted by a mod but doesn't this really belong in one of the ongoing threads about the failure(s) of fine cast? Do we really need another thread about this?

This is not a hate thread. This is someone posting GW's comments and putting them up to review.

So far, it's been "This is the SOP for companies, nothing new."

**Pacific**

We have been working very hard on the quality. The Finecast product has been on the market for nine months. When you are casting resin, the process can involve air bubbles and things of that nature, so we launched a product this fall called “Liquid Green Stuff,” which is for filling small detail gaps, and that product along with a brush, a hobby brush that is like a toothbrush almost, can be used to cover any blemishes.

So take that to mean that the current QC is acceptable, and any problems are just to be solved with the liquid green stuff?

It's almost like they expect their customer base never to have seen a resin miniature from a different manufacturer..

Wait... ?!

**Stealershock**

i like how they completely ignored the part of the last question that asked about the response of the customers to finecast. i wonder if they know how much we hate it and are afraid to say, or don't do any research into how their products are recieved, and don't want to admit that

**PhantomViper**

This is just mind boggling insane!

The company is admitting that they are selling a flawed product and that they expect their customers to buy more products to fix the flaws in the first one themselves, and the "reporter" just lets it slide?

EA just got voted the worse company of 2012 or some such nonsense, can you even begin to imagine the public outcry if they actually charged money for the patches to fix the bugs on their products?! And yet, GW customers continue to meekly stand in line with a few whimpers and a "here is my money, can I have another one sir, please?"...

**oni**

Hmmm... Interesting. Mr. Andre Kieran pretty much BS's his way through that last one, but his dodging retort can be summed up as follows:

Corporate Speak Translation = "We're well aware that the majority of customer are dissatisfied with Finecast because of its inherent quality issues, but GW's increased margin of profitability moving to a cheaper casting material more than makes up for this."

Layman's Terms Translation = "The rewards outweigh the pitfalls so this is going to be as good as it gets."

feth FAILCAST!

**Kingsley**

In my experience, Finecast is only a failure on the Internet-- which is to say that, despite the doomsaying and harsh reactions from the online 40k community, Finecast continues to sell in real life-- and indeed is viewed by many, including myself, as a superior successor to metal. I for one intend to phase out all metal models in my army and replace them with resin and Finecast ones-- not only are they easier to transport, but they are much more suitable for conversion work as well. In my view, Finecast is a win-win.

**frest**

Fetterkey wrote:In my experience, Finecast is only a failure on the Internet-- which is to say that, despite the doomsaying and harsh reactions from the online 40k community, Finecast continues to sell in real life-- and indeed is viewed by many, including myself, as a superior successor to metal. I for one intend to phase out all metal models in my army and replace them with resin and Finecast ones-- not only are they easier to transport, but they are much more suitable for conversion work as well. In my view, Finecast is a win-win.

I've read the blogs and forum articles that call out the truly egregious finecast quality issues, I'm aware that people have had really negative experiences with the products.

That said, every finecast model I've touched has been acceptable. I went into assembling my first kit expecting the worst (I even picked up a thing of liquid green stuff just in case, figured it'd come in handy for other things besides finecast). I was pleasantly surprised.

I started asking around, and a lot of the hobbyists I know (who aren't really internet forums people) repeated the same sort of idea: some people on the internet are making a big deal out of it. I mean I've had over 10+ miscasts or problems with metal figs over my time in the hobby, and like a full half of the time I spend on my plastic kit assembly is usually spent shaving mold lines. By comparison my experience with finecast has been really benign, and it's a good deal easier to clean than metal.

**pretre**

frest wrote:That said, every finecast model I've touched has been acceptable. I went into assembling my first kit expecting the worst (I even picked up a thing of liquid green stuff just in case, figured it'd come in handy for other things besides finecast). I was pleasantly surprised.

I started asking around, and a lot of the hobbyists I know (who aren't really internet forums people) repeated the same sort of idea: some people on the internet are making a big deal out of it. I mean I've had over 10+ miscasts or problems with metal figs over my time in the hobby, and like a full half of the time I spend on my plastic kit assembly is usually spent shaving mold lines. By comparison my experience with finecast has been really benign, and it's a good deal easier to clean than metal.

Seconded!

And I play sisters, so trust me, I know all about metal miscasts. lol

**Mr.Church13**

90% of people who complain about Finecast have never purchased one model. I own several different sculpts old and new and have only had to work with them at the same level I have worked with FW models for years now.

The incredibly vocal Internet minority can say what they will but Finecast is not that bad. Yeah I'd love cheaper prices and for everything to be in plastics, who wouldn't, but I know that it's not gonna happen.

**Ravenous D**

Every single person I know hates finecast, based on the fact that you need to pull 3 boxes off the shelf to get an acceptable mold.

I dont know if you bunch work for GW or not but lay off the Kool-Aid.

Im the owner of a Coven of Flesh, and in order to get 28 acceptable wracks Ive had to trade in more then 18 boxes (thats 90 Wracks) because of issues, if even one model is missing a part of weapon the entire box is unacceptable. I shouldnt have to resculpt any part of the "superior quality miniature", the fact I can in moot. If you bought a car with a broken engine would you just take it lying down because you can fix it yourself? Or would you ask for a new damn car til they got it right?

.

**blue loki**

Fetterkey wrote:In my experience, Finecast is only a failure on the Internet-- which is to say that, despite the doomsaying and harsh reactions from the online 40k community, Finecast continues to sell in real life-- and indeed is viewed by many, including myself, as a superior successor to metal. I for one intend to phase out all metal models in my army and replace them with resin and Finecast ones-- not only are they easier to transport, but they are much more suitable for conversion work as well. In my view, Finecast is a win-win.

Unfortunately, from what I've seen this is the IRL majority opinion.

I've held pretty bad castings purchased by others, but the buyers seem to accept it with little to no grumbling. Its been enough to convince me not to buy into it, but apparently I'm a minority. At least one of these buyers also refuses to call up support for a replacement (a fairly painless thing to do), which makes me think that maybe the masses are just too lazy to care.

So long as it keeps selling, finecast isn't going anywhere.

**frest**

I dunno dude, a car is a car and this is a bunch of little figurines. My willingness to put up with this stuff is much more than it would be for any other product because we're already into the most frivolous of all possible discretionary spending

I'm not sure what the problem is though, the company let you trade through 18 boxes until you were satisfied, and the end result is that you got the miniatures you were after at a quality you found acceptable.

If your argument is that "you shouldn't have to do that" well, lol dude... I've gone through boxes of hydras missing heads, black guard with broken halberds right in the box etc, and GW replaced them no questions asked. I was ready for a horror show based on the internet buzz, and instead of I got a really detailed model that was easy to assemble.

**puma713**

oni wrote:

Layman's Terms Translation = "The rewards outweigh the pitfalls so this is going to be as good as it gets."

This was my takeaway from the interview as well. "This is as good as its getting, and everything is moving to this, so get used to it."

Basically, flipping the bird to its consumer fanbase.

**frest**

I dunno, the new Witch Hunter I just put together is fine and my game store sold it to me at -20% GW's online price, what about this is supposed to be an insult to me as a customer ??

**Balance**

Mr.Church13 wrote:90% of people who complain about Finecast have never purchased one model. I own several different sculpts old and new and have only had to work with them at the same level I have worked with FW models for years now.

That's the reason I don't complain about it. A friend got a box of DE to convert and was reasonably pleased, so not everyone is unhappy.

**Lotus**

frest wrote:I started asking around, and a lot of the hobbyists I know (who aren't really internet forums people) repeated the same sort of idea: some people on the internet are making a big deal out of it. I mean I've had over 10+ miscasts or problems with metal figs over my time in the hobby, and like a full half of the time I spend on my plastic kit assembly is usually spent shaving mold lines. By comparison my experience with finecast has been really benign, and it's a good deal easier to clean than metal.

(emphasis mine)

I can't be the only one who noticed GW jargon coming from this guy right? I'm not saying he's anything related to GW other than a customer, but if he's fluent in GW BS that's a red flag of bias to me.

**Pacific**

Fetterkey wrote:In my experience, Finecast is only a failure on the Internet-- which is to say that, despite the doomsaying and harsh reactions from the online 40k community

I'm afraid to say this hasn't been true in my experience. A bunch of guys at my club, none of whom (AFAIK) post on forums, were bemoaning the quality of their WFB purchases and saying they wished they had the option of buying in metal. A 40k opponent of mine had an absolutely appalling Astorath the Grimm, but wasn't sure if he could take it back and swap as he already assembled the thing in a rush. The other week a customer and cashier in my FLGS were going through blisters of something or other trying to find a suitable copy. All of these incidents present a very clear picture to me, completely without any stories I may have picked up on the internet.

Are you trying to imply that all the people commenting negatively on FC, the dozens of blogs and threads throughout the internet (one of which on Dakka is over 70 pages long), the major retailers (Wayland) refusing to sell the stuff, all have some kind of twisted agenda, or are simply carried on by some kind of media hysteria that dispels the ability for rational decision making?