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Lotus wrote:I can't be the only one who noticed GW jargon coming from this guy right? I'm not saying he's anything related to GW other than a customer, but if he's fluent in GW BS that's a red flag of bias to me.

So now everyone has to mind whether they write 'Hobby' or 'The Hobby'? Jeez.....

And to be fair to Frest, he didn't specify if the metals and plastics he was talking about were from GW or some other company....... Maybe the fact that you assume it is is a red flag of bias?

Lotus wrote:

frest wrote:I started asking around, and a lot of the hobbyists I know (who aren't really internet forums people) repeated the same sort of idea: some people on the internet are making a big deal out of it. I mean I've had over 10+ miscasts or problems with metal figs over my time in the hobby, and like a full half of the time I spend on my plastic kit assembly is usually spent shaving mold lines. By comparison my experience with finecast has been really benign, and it's a good deal easier to clean than metal.

(emphasis mine)

I can't be the only one who noticed GW jargon coming from this guy right? I'm not saying he's anything related to GW other than a customer, but if he's fluent in GW BS that's a red flag of bias to me.

I don't know what jargon your seeing but most everyone that I play and purchase with here has found the product acceptable. They are also not really an Internet driven bunch either. Soo I'm not sure but Internet exposure might have some effect on opinions. Also I do not work in the hobby industry, just to be fair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Didn't Wayland game actually end up having a personal agenda against GW?

Lotus wrote:

frest wrote:I started asking around, and a lot of the hobbyists I know (who aren't really internet forums people) repeated the same sort of idea: some people on the internet are making a big deal out of it. I mean I've had over 10+ miscasts or problems with metal figs over my time in the hobby, and like a full half of the time I spend on my plastic kit assembly is usually spent shaving mold lines. By comparison my experience with finecast has been really benign, and it's a good deal easier to clean than metal.

(emphasis mine)

I can't be the only one who noticed GW jargon coming from this guy right? I'm not saying he's anything related to GW other than a customer, but if he's fluent in GW BS that's a red flag of bias to me.

lol So now anyone who is okay with Finecast is a GW plant? Geeze.

Lotus wrote:

frest wrote:I started asking around, and a lot of the hobbyists I know (who aren't really internet forums people) repeated the same sort of idea: some people on the internet are making a big deal out of it. I mean I've had over 10+ miscasts or problems with metal figs over my time in the hobby, and like a full half of the time I spend on my plastic kit assembly is usually spent shaving mold lines. By comparison my experience with finecast has been really benign, and it's a good deal easier to clean than metal.

(emphasis mine)

I can't be the only one who noticed GW jargon coming from this guy right? I'm not saying he's anything related to GW other than a customer, but if he's fluent in GW BS that's a red flag of bias to me.

You know I've always wondered whether or not GW is using stealth/viral marketing on certain forums around the web. Not saying this guy is one, but it seems like a good strategy for GW to employ, seeing as how their web presence involves very little interaction with the customer.

It's become clear now that video game companies have been using this strategy for quite some time now. I don't see why it's outside of the realm of possibility for a smaller concern like GW, seeing as how it seems pretty cheap to pay some keyboard commandos as opposed to running and moderating your own forum.

I'm not trying to put on a tin foil hat or anything, I'm just curious.

Here is the Transcript of GW PLC corperate managment , translated into pub speak.

The White metal cost is shooting up guys, we wont be able to make over 70% gross profit on this range for much longer.
Cant we just use the metal moulds to cast resin.As resin is a fraction of the price of white metal?

The technical guy said its doubtful with resin , but a plastic -resin compound might work.
Ok lets do it...Have we got it done yet?

The technical guys say there are still some issues that need adressing.
Sod that, start selling them , we have spent a fair bit of money promoting these bloody minatures , lets get some cash back.
Despite the reduced material costs (other companies halved the RRP) , lets charge the same as the white metal minatures...(They bought the Gold Swords so why not.)

Oh, there apears to be a lot of negative feed back ,(returns .)
Do we spend a fortune on reviewing new casting methods to improve quality...or sell the muppets some over priced filler to fix our problems for us.

The muppets bought our dodgy minatures AND bought our overprived filler to fix our cock ups!
You see they ARE a gullable bunch of idiots that belive everything we tell them......

GW is a lot of things, but they have seldom been accused of being overly internet savvy. I think you guys are reaching.

While all the white-knighting is to be expected, it would serve their argument a bit better if an outpour of perfectly good sculpts right out of the package could be produced via pictures.

If the internet is rife with pictures casting Finecast in a horrible light, where are the flood of perfectly good sculpts to counter them? To bemoan the internet for giving Finecast a bad name is naive - if it was as great as GW says it is, there would be equally as many defenders producing their pictures of flawless models that didn't need Green Stuff, extra sculpting or a return.

puma713 wrote:While all the white-knighting is to be expected, it would serve their argument a bit better if an outpour of perfectly good sculpts right out of the package could be produced via pictures.

If the internet is rife with pictures casting Finecast in a horrible light, where are the flood of perfectly good sculpts to counter them? To bemoan the internet for giving Finecast a bad name is naive - if it was as great as GW says it is, there would be equally as many defenders producing their pictures of flawless models that didn't need Green Stuff, extra sculpting or a return.

Because the people who get good sculpts have no reason to complain and don't feel like dealing with the inherent negativity of the vocal Internet minority. Besides no one listens to good things on the Internet anyway. Also until we see some actual returns VS sales numbers from GW itself then we don't know which side is correct.

All I can comment on is my experience, and that mine is a good experience.

Mr.Church13 wrote:

puma713 wrote:While all the white-knighting is to be expected, it would serve their argument a bit better if an outpour of perfectly good sculpts right out of the package could be produced via pictures.

If the internet is rife with pictures casting Finecast in a horrible light, where are the flood of perfectly good sculpts to counter them? To bemoan the internet for giving Finecast a bad name is naive - if it was as great as GW says it is, there would be equally as many defenders producing their pictures of flawless models that didn't need Green Stuff, extra sculpting or a return.

Because the people who get good sculpts have no reason to complain and don't feel like dealing with the inherent negativity of the vocal Internet minority. Besides no one listens to good things on the Internet anyway. Also until we see some actual returns VS sales numbers from GW itself then we don't know which side is correct.

All I can comment on is my experience, and that mine is a good experience.

And that's the problem. Anecdotal evidence is worthless. The reason that the pictures on the internet carry so much weight is because they're just that - hard evidence. If 100 people show you a picture of a miscast model and say, "We've had terrible experiences!" and then, one person comes up and says, "Not me." Naturally, the evidence is going to point toward the former, not the latter.

puma713 wrote:And that's the problem. Anecdotal evidence is worthless. The reason that the pictures on the internet carry so much weight is because they're just that - hard evidence. If 100 people show you a picture of a miscast model and say, "We've had terrible experiences!" and then, one person comes up and says, "Not me." Naturally, the evidence is going to point toward the former, not the latter.

It is an eternal problem in Customer Service. There's an old adage that says 'A customer with a good experience will tell one other person. A customer with a poor experience will tell 10.' That's since been amended to say 'A customer with a poor experience and the internet will tell millions.'

It is rare that you get home from a business and rush to tell your wife what a perfectly acceptable experience you had at Business X. If you had a poor experience though, it is probably the first thing out of your mouth when you get home.

I wasn't aware I was slinging jargon?? I just meant to express that "I've been playing wargames for like 5 years and in that time my experiences were ____"

I usually just lurk dakka (and other forums), but the recent Empire tactics discussion got me wanting to post so I finally got around to registering.

pretre wrote:GW is a lot of things, but they have seldom been accused of being overly internet savvy. I think you guys are reaching.

Right. It would be completely different to any previous procedure that anyone has commented on.

It is rare that you get home from a business and rush to tell your wife what a perfectly acceptable experience you had at Business X. If you had a poor experience though, it is probably the first thing out of your mouth when you get home.

Which I think is fair enough if you have handed over your pennies and expect a particular level of item or service in return.

I work in a corporate environment and spend most of my downtime browsing wargaming stuff, I'm probably the most web-forum savvy of the friends I have that play wargames.

I usually do most of my posting on something awful and reddit, and there isn't the same level of intense negativity about finecast there (although like I said i've seen some similar horror stories like the guy with the wracks were talking about) If i had to guess, the new models (empire for example) were sculpted with the new technical limitations of finecast in mind.

My witch hunter came with a slightly bent scabbard, but otherwise no damage. A few seconds under the hair dryer and I had it straightened. that was nothing new since I've bought some stuff from forgeworld that needed a little help etc

meh, I bought one and it was no problem. I would be mad if I had to fill in bubbles myself though, so I can see why other people are mad if they get a miscast. Having to call customer service is an inconvenience. I just love the world of 40k so I might buy more in the future, but if it was a cheaper, higher quality product I might buy a lot more.

Pacific wrote:

pretre wrote:It is rare that you get home from a business and rush to tell your wife what a perfectly acceptable experience you had at Business X. If you had a poor experience though, it is probably the first thing out of your mouth when you get home.

Which I think is fair enough if you have handed over your pennies and expect a particular level of item or service in return.

I'm not saying it isn't okay to complain, but you need to realize that your single experience isn't the totality of reality. Add to that the fact that confirmation bias is a real problem in these situations and things turn into a whirlwind of complaints.

In the years I've been on Dakka I cannot remember a single post regarding the quality of GW metal figures being faulty on such a regular basis as finecast has been. The posters raising quality issues are not a minority; check the post from the guy who went to GW's main base in Nottingham and they couldn't find him a figure that was acceptable. Now consider if they were looking for a metal one. How many would they need to check? One at the most!
Seriously guys, no problem with you stating your support for finecast, but when it boils down to it they are selling what they claim is a premium product, it should be perfect and not relying on the customer to carry out intensive repairs.
In short substandard products should not be allowed to leave the factory.

Slipstream wrote:In the years I've been on Dakka I cannot remember a single post regarding the quality of GW metal figures being faulty on such a regular basis as finecast has been.

I don't think anyone has said that. I said that I had a lot of miscasts with metal, but I haven't bought that many finecast, so couldn't compare.

The posters raising quality issues are not a minority; check the post from the guy who went to GW's main base in Nottingham and they couldn't find him a figure that was acceptable. Now consider if they were looking for a metal one. How many would they need to check? One at the most!

But here's the problem, they are the minority in the scope of total consumers buying the product. I'm not saying they are lying or exaggerating; I'm saying that the majority are not the ones on the internet.

Seriously guys, no problem with you stating your support for finecast,

I think this is another problem with a lot of folks perceptions. Most of us aren't 'supporting finecast', we are trying to provide an objective POV and saying 'You know, that didn't happen to me.'

but when it boils down to it they are selling what they claim is a premium product, it should be perfect and not relying on the customer to carry out intensive repairs.
In short substandard products should not be allowed to leave the factory.

I agree with the second sentence. Substandard products, of the kind that have been pictured in this and other threads, should not be allowed to exit the factory. I disagree that it should be perfect and agree that intensive repairs should not be necessary.

Our true disagreement is in the scope of the problem. You see the posts here, add to them your experience and see an epidemic; I see the posts, add to them my experience and see examples of a more limited problem.

Beware Confirmation Bias.

J.Black wrote:

Lotus wrote:I can't be the only one who noticed GW jargon coming from this guy right? I'm not saying he's anything related to GW other than a customer, but if he's fluent in GW BS that's a red flag of bias to me.

So now everyone has to mind whether they write 'Hobby' or 'The Hobby'? Jeez.....

And to be fair to Frest, he didn't specify if the metals and plastics he was talking about were from GW or some other company....... Maybe the fact that you assume it is is a red flag of bias?

It's The HHHobby.

pretre wrote:

Beware Confirmation Bias.

It is difficult to not partake in Confirmation Bias when almost all available information is negative. I would be taking part in Confirmation Bias if I thought that something was bad for you, so I looked until I found a website that confirmed what I thought, and then preached that as gospel. That is not the same thing that is happening here.

There is an absence of the other side of the story. There are people protesting how bad the release is, there are neutral people and there are people protesting how good the release is. However, no matter where you look (except GW's website), you find negative reviews. That is not negative people looking for something to relate to - positive people will find these reviews just as easily. In fact, I would say the opposite now - that if someone found a positive review, then they would be the ones taking part in Confirmation Bias, since so much of the press these days points to the contrary.

And you can call the internet the minority all you like, but it is still a huge advertising platform, both positively and negatively. You may see that 100 people reviewed a hotel, but you'll take their word of experience over the "non-vocal majority" simply because they have experience with what you're interested in.

@puma713: I agree with you for the most part. The majority of the minority (the internet) is complaining about Finecast.
My disagreement is that that is the whole story.
People who have a good experience don't come on the internet to talk about it. That's just the way these things work.

There's too much physical evidence to deny the fact that many Finecast models are rubbish.

They will find user acceptance even so, aided by the fact that a lot of buyers are n00bs.

Also, it should be recognised that a lot of Finecast models don't have any major problems., and there are advantages of weight and ease of construction.

Mr.Church13 wrote: Besides no one listens to good things on the Internet anyway.

I started buying Vallejo paints thanks to positive reviews on the internet. Same for Hasslefree miniatures, Confrontation, Anime Tactics... all miniature ranges I hadn't seen in real life, but took a stab at after seeing positive stuff about them online. There's a bunch of card games, books and various other products (including my car, my kobo, and the place I went for my last weekend away) that I've been similarly influenced on by positive online reviews.

Just dismissing the internet as being focused on the negative is overly simplistic. People are usually more than happy to discuss the positive... when you get something good, it's natural to want to share the fact. When the negative opinions seem to be more prevalent, there's usually a reason for it.

Kilkrazy wrote:There's too much physical evidence to deny the fact that many Finecast models are rubbish.

They will find user acceptance even so, aided by the fact that a lot of buyers are n00bs.

Also, it should be recognised that a lot of Finecast models don't have any major problems., and there are advantages of weight and ease of construction.

This is largely what I'm saying.

I know a lot of people are complaining about finecast, but I have yet to have an issue.

Its just like all the red ringing jokes about the Xbox 360... I don't get it cause I have yet to have the issue, and personally believe that most of this is just another internet complaint wildfire.

Just me though...

Mr.Church13 wrote:
Because the people who get good sculpts have no reason to complain and don't feel like dealing with the inherent negativity of the vocal Internet minority. Besides no one listens to good things on the Internet anyway.

I started collecting Infinity on the basis of comments on Dakka

Pacific wrote:Are you trying to imply that all the people commenting negatively on FC, the dozens of blogs and threads throughout the internet (one of which on Dakka is over 70 pages long), the major retailers (Wayland) refusing to sell the stuff, all have some kind of twisted agenda, or are simply carried on by some kind of media hysteria that dispels the ability for rational decision making?

No, I'm just pointing out that the Internet anger, in my experience, has not been backed up in real life. Indeed, most people I've met and talked with at the local shops have been big fans of Finecast. I think that the Internet community in general and DakkaDakka in particular features an unusual number of haters relative to the general populace-- and, as others have pointed out, most of those who buy Finecast and have it work fine aren't really compelled to post. Many of the people I've talked to didn't even recognize that there was a Finecast "controversy."

Zarren Wevon wrote:

Lotus wrote:

frest wrote:I started asking around, and a lot of the hobbyists I know (who aren't really internet forums people) repeated the same sort of idea: some people on the internet are making a big deal out of it. I mean I've had over 10+ miscasts or problems with metal figs over my time in the hobby, and like a full half of the time I spend on my plastic kit assembly is usually spent shaving mold lines. By comparison my experience with finecast has been really benign, and it's a good deal easier to clean than metal.

(emphasis mine)

I can't be the only one who noticed GW jargon coming from this guy right? I'm not saying he's anything related to GW other than a customer, but if he's fluent in GW BS that's a red flag of bias to me.

You know I've always wondered whether or not GW is using stealth/viral marketing on certain forums around the web. Not saying this guy is one, but it seems like a good strategy for GW to employ, seeing as how their web presence involves very little interaction with the customer.

It's become clear now that video game companies have been using this strategy for quite some time now. I don't see why it's outside of the realm of possibility for a smaller concern like GW, seeing as how it seems pretty cheap to pay some keyboard commandos as opposed to running and moderating your own forum.

I'm not trying to put on a tin foil hat or anything, I'm just curious.

I recently interviewed with GW, and the man interviewing me specifically said that they read DakkaDakka and Warseer and other various forums. He also said that they shot themselves in the foot with the finecast launch. GW views themselves as the GIANT of the miniatures industry and the only company that can hurt them, is themselves. To that end, their customer service, in store and on the phone has been revamped, re envisioned and in the last 3 years I have seen the difference.
I would testify in court to that. FWIW

Finecast mess-ups I have had:
KFF Big Mek - Missing an arm. They sent me a whole new Big Mek

That being said, I doubt there are any / many planted posts.

My company policy is, No outside communication. We can read all we want, but we are not allowed to talk to the public. Seems like a standard policy in all major companies.

Mr.Church13 wrote: Besides no one listens to good things on the Internet anyway.

That really was meant to be more sarcastic than it came off being. My bad, next time I shall get it right.

I read the title and thought Finecast was Final.... And I was getting excited for a boss battle

Johnny-Crass wrote:I read the title and thought Finecast was Final.... And I was getting excited for a boss battle

I got excited just reading those words together, even though I know its not true.