Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So you say if you get zogwart and a squad of 30 boys hanging around just sitting besie st C, they turn her into a squig, she comes back and there is also a squig and you blast the squig and get a KP in the next turn followed by hitting the saint wiht zogwarts curse again. So you can get loads of KPs?

If I assault the saint when she is attacked to a squad and sweeping advance does she come back?
If she is attacked to a squad and gets locked in while falling back?
Those are two situations when she is removed, the act of taking her from the board, without the words.

There is no her coming back. Becoming a Squig removes special abilities including mircales, wings, and even breasts. She cannot return, gork and mork beat the emperor with random shenanigans.


This is much like the case of the impaler cannons, pure english eludes people. I myself didn't want to give up my cover save until I read it.

No, because her rule doesnt say it works against Sweeping Advance, so sweeping advance wins

Yes, when she reaches tyhe edge of the table you place her model where she "left" the table. Which, if you'd read the thread more carefully, you would have seen has already been asked AND answered.

Her rule doesn't say it works against replaced, does replaced win?

drorain wrote:There is no her coming back. Becoming a Squig removes special abilities including mircales, wings, and even breasts. She cannot return, gork and mork beat the emperor with random shenanigans.

This is much like the case of the impaler cannons, pure english eludes people. I myself didn't want to give up my cover save until I read it.

Except that she does not BECOME a squig. She is REPLACED by a squig. See the difference?

Fluff "Old Zogwort has the ability to transform a powerful enemy into a squig."

Rule "If the Ork player scores higher, the target model is REPLACED with an angry squig"

Replaced. Not transformed, not changed into, not becomes. Replaced. And to replace her, you have to do what? Remove her from the frikkin' table. IE, remove from play.

liturgies of blood wrote:Her rule doesn't say it works against replaced, does replaced win?

Yep, because to replace her, you have to do what? Hint - see above.....................................

She's not being replaced, her model's being replaced. She's being transformed.

Randall Turner wrote:She's not being replaced, her model's being replaced. She's being transformed.

Sorry, the rule itself says she is REPLACED. Or could you not be bothered to read the quoted rule from page 61 of the Ork codex that I provided above.........................?

Differentiate between her physical representation (the lead model) and her actual "self". I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said umpteen times before in this thread, don - if we had the capability to transform her lead model**, the rule would read "transform her lead model". Regardless, the rule is telling us how to update her on-board physical representation.



** - (Vegas, Baby!)

Repeating it does not make it correct. The rule says, "replaced". And she cannot be replaced without being removed..........................

Ready to get off the merry-go-round?

don_mondo wrote:

liturgies of blood wrote:But you aren't loosing your HQ choice, it's not dead it has had it's stats changed. You don't loose a model, it just becomes totally useless.

Is Celestine still on the table? Yes or no. If no, apply MI.

Yes she is, just in Squig form. She is still under your control which suggests her brain is working the same as before so she is still St. C.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:No, it's named "Squig".
And no one is saying the Squig isn't placed. There's just a counter for St. C as well.

Well they could hardly write out the names of every IC character with the squig statline.

I understand what you are saying Don but there is difference between taking the model off the board and substituting it. It is a far more specific situation then rfp and rfpaac, so much so that the necron FAQ had to mention it.

So shall we look at it like this, models can be
Destroyed
Removed from play (possibly with rfpaac as a subset of this)
Replaced

Even as it stands the saint doesn't get get to come back from it all, so why this time permissive ruleset and all does MI happen?

A Town Called Malus wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

liturgies of blood wrote:But you aren't loosing your HQ choice, it's not dead it has had it's stats changed. You don't loose a model, it just becomes totally useless.

Is Celestine still on the table? Yes or no. If no, apply MI.

Yes she is, just in Squig form. She is still under your control which suggests her brain is working the same as before so she is still St. C.

Excpet that you replaced her, per the rule. If I replace your cantalope with watermelon, is the cantalope still on your plate? (eating breakfast, guess what I'm having?)

Anyways, round and round we go. So I'm getting off the merry-go-round unless someone actually brings up a new point.

Welp, I just wanted to say "I agree with X" again, but here's a point that might be new -

There's usually two sides to these 10-pagers, and the same people tend to be on the same side.

The key element to the clumping seems to be an adherence to a convention vs. attempting to change the convention to fit new data points.

Basically, if we accept the Necron FAQ as a new data point telling us "converted != removed", we'll end up one place. If we however adhere to our previously agreed on definition of "RFP" and treat the Necron FAQ as a specific exception, we'll end up somewhere else.

I like regularity, I don't like data point outliers, if I see one I need to change my theory to fit the empirical data. Doesn't matter how attractive that theory was. To me.

Others, welp, they're of the opinion that outliers are often actually "mistakes", which while that doesn't work for particle physics certainly is a valid position to take w/regard to a large disorganized and very complex ruleset.

Electro wrote:I would say the question should come when the squig St. Celestine is killed.

Since the squig has no wargear or special rules (ie MI) the squig is permanent death

So when you removed the model from play, you dont thibk it triggers a rule that activates when you remove the model frm play?

You dont "replace the model from play", as that is a nonsense phrase - in order to replace the St C model with the squig you have to remove the St C model from play. At which point her special rule kicks in.

Please show me the rules and pg numbers that back up what you are saying nos.

to say i pick up my model and since it has been removed from the table i get a counter is nonsense.

So when the rule of a power says replaced that "clearly" means something else. so Replaced from play is perfectly viable since that is what the rule says.

Wars over, dude. Let it go. We understand your position. We don't agree with it. This is where we agree to disagree.

Grimgar314 wrote:With zogworts curse the model is not killed or removed from play. Its statline special rules and wargear change. That is not being removed from play, it is being altered.

It says the model is replaced with a squig and the squig has its own profile.
It never says once, with the exception of a descriptive transform in the beginning, that the models stats or abilities are ever changed. The actual workings of the rule state, and this is going to be word for word lifted from the ork codex next to me.

"the target model is replaced with an angry Squig under the control of your opponent. You must provide the Squig model. It has the profile below and no wargear or special rules, but is an independant character that counts as infantry."

It doesnt once say that the target character has its profile changed it says that the character that was there is replaced with a squig that has its own profile (a.k.a the character is removed and a squig is placed instead in its place).

nosferatu1001 wrote:So when you removed the model from play, you dont thibk it triggers a rule that activates when you remove the model frm play?

You dont "replace the model from play", as that is a nonsense phrase - in order to replace the St C model with the squig you have to remove the St C model from play. At which point her special rule kicks in.

Do the changes to her stats and removal of special rules from squigification occur before or after you switch models? Won't they come into play as soon as the result of the dice off is resolved, so before you physically switch the model?

If that is true then she loses her abilities before being removed from the table and cannot leave a counter.

you are inferring Removal when removal is not wrote.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:Wars over, dude. Let it go. We understand your position. We don't agree with it. This is where we agree to disagree.

Dont get me wrong pretre we both know i play sisters also and would love to have ST.c be unsquigable.

i also play orks zogwart included. but there are no rules or abilties that say RFP in ZWC.

just because you are physically taking the model of the table does not mean MI kicks in due to the fact RFP is something cause by an ability that Explicitly says so.

And we have yet another thread going in circles. We shall call this, dice off or discuss with your opponent before the game. Now lets find a new topic to go in circles over. Anyone up for another round of EL and Sweeping Advance?

Not to keep this going but...

Assuming that she doesn't get to respawn, what happens when Celetine is squigged?

Does the Ork player get a KP?
If the SoB player kills the squig, does she get a KP? Or do both sides get a KP?
If the SoB player kills the squig, does Celestine get to respawn since the squig-Celestine has been removed as a casualty?
What happens if Zogwart squigs the squig? (Ok, that one was a joke, but the other ones are serious. )

Happyjew wrote:Anyone up for another round of EL and Sweeping Advance?

No.

Amerikon wrote:Not to keep this going but...

Assuming that she doesn't get to respawn, what happens when Celetine is squigged?

Does the Ork player get a KP?
If the SoB player kills the squig, does she get a KP? Or do both sides get a KP?
If the SoB player kills the squig, does Celestine get to respawn since the squig-Celestine has been removed as a casualty?
What happens if Zogwart squigs the squig? (Ok, that one was a joke, but the other ones are serious. )

The SOB get a squig to control, so they can't kill the squig on purpose but when it dies there goes your KP. If she doesn't get to use MI when the curse is used why would the squig when it says that it has no special rules or wargear other then being an IC. The orc only gets the KP when the squig is gone.

Amerikon wrote:Not to keep this going but...

Assuming that she doesn't get to respawn, what happens when Celetine is squigged?

Does the Ork player get a KP?
If the SoB player kills the squig, does she get a KP? Or do both sides get a KP?
If the SoB player kills the squig, does Celestine get to respawn since the squig-Celestine has been removed as a casualty?
What happens if Zogwart squigs the squig? (Ok, that one was a joke, but the other ones are serious. )

Any ic that gets squggled does not give up a kp till the squig dies. The squig is under the non-zogwart players so jnless a stray blast marker hits it on the same side I doubt you can kill it.

Also when you become a squig you lose all wargear and special rules.

You get a squig with a squig but you would need another squig model to replace the one you ....squiged.

rigeld2 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Anyone up for another round of EL and Sweeping Advance?

No.

Not just no, emphatically no.

Here lets make this extremely simply

please recite the entire rule not sections sniped out to make points.

If under ZWC it says that the character is transformed into a squig, then by the rules in the BRB considering pyschic powers and how they work, then the character becomes a squig period. I say this because ZWC is a PSA I assume, and under the BRB rules the codex section containing the rules for pychic powers is all rules, no fluff.

Anyways, onto a more important point, those of you who say that the model is the character, what about counts as? Since you are playing counts as, ST. C and dont actually have the character does MI still work, or hell, what happens when you drop ST.C and she becomes tiny little peices? Do you pick up the pile and throw it back on the table, or just replace the model with a different one?

Please accept this humble rant as a sensible reading of all 6 pages of text and a reaction of me vomiting all over my keyboard because people are putting thier fingers in thier ears, and saying nope, I cant hear you LALALALALALALLALALALALALALLALALALALALALALALA!

Cheers!

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Please show me the rules and pg numbers that back up what you are saying nos.

Show me a page definition for the word "the"

Shock, you cannot. Guess what, the game of 40k doesnt work that way

Did you, or did you not, REMOVE the model FROM PLAY? If you say "no":, you are simply lying to (try, and fail) win an argument, as it is an untenable position to hold.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:So when the rule of a power says replaced that "clearly" means something else. so Replaced from play is perfectly viable since that is what the rule says.

No, it doesnt. Stop lying.

Agree to disagree, because frankly you dont have any thing worth arguing against except simple obstinance

A lot of the argument seems to be that the Celestine mode loses all wargear/rules, which is patently false.

It directly tells you to _replace_ the model with a new model. I.e. the squig. It then tells you that THAT new model (i.e. the squig) has a specific statline and no wargear/rules.

Nowhere is it said that the original model that used to be there loses all its special rules.

Celestine is not transformed or has her stats/rules changed in anyway. She is literally REPLACED with an entirely new model, with entirely new stats/rules.

And to replace her, you must physically remove the model from the board (i.e. from the game or as it would be 'from play').

nosferatu1001 wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Please show me the rules and pg numbers that back up what you are saying nos.

Show me a page definition for the word "the"

Shock, you cannot. Guess what, the game of 40k doesnt work that way

Did you, or did you not, REMOVE the model FROM PLAY? If you say "no":, you are simply lying to (try, and fail) win an argument, as it is an untenable position to hold.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:So when the rule of a power says replaced that "clearly" means something else. so Replaced from play is perfectly viable since that is what the rule says.

No, it doesnt. Stop lying.

Agree to disagree, because frankly you dont have any thing worth arguing against except simple obstinance

Nice try Nos, but he actually has you here. While you are trying to distract from the rules discussion by asking him to define "the" in the rule book, he is within his right in YMDC rules to ask you to support your arguement other wise it is just an opinion, and stinks......

Anyways, back to my questions! Anyone figured it out yet? Or hey lets take a look at the full rule??? That would make thing absolutly awesome!

No Seriously post the entire rule word for word. I am not kidding that would in my opinion stop this train wreck!