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Redbeard wrote:

InquisitorVaron wrote:Do you know what suppress means?

I find that little quip rather insulting, it's not even like you've taken any time at all to check out your claim.
But I will do that for you.

Apparently, I have, and more correctly than you.

4 Missile shots assuming a 4+ to hit that's 2 Hits, 1.3 Pens and the 4+ SV makes that 0.6*

First of all, missiles hit on 3+ when fired by Long Fangs, which was what we had been talking about. Secondly, the poster I was responding to stated that he wasn't including the magical RPJ save, and my response also assumed that.

So, revisiting this, two missiles would yield an expected 1.33 hits, and needing a 2+ to glance (or better), yields an expected 1.1 rolls on a damage table, more than enough to suppress the vehicle. So, yes, two Marine missiles can reasonably be expected to suppress a dakkajet if you don't include the 4+ cover, and four missiles will do the same if you do.

Unless we're playing how you think it is with RPJ, even though the guys over at YMDC pretty much all concur with me.
But we shall leave that at YMDC so don't quote it

Them over there at YMDC have been overruled by GW FAQs in the past. In my experience, until there is an FAQ, the good sportsmanship approach is to assume that what is best for your opponent is the way it is. In this case, I would not feel right taking that 4+ save until GW clarified that I was allowed to.

InquisitorVaron wrote:
So doing the math hammer with the updated hitting, 2.6* hits so 1.71 Pens then with the SV that's 0.85, still not enough.

You feel insulted when I suggest you don't know what suppressed means, but then you keep insisting on calculating whether a pen gets through. You don't need to pen a vehicle to suppress it. All I need to do is shake or stun a dakkajet and it's not a threat for the next turn. I can then move on to other targets. That's suppression. If I do more than shake it, good for me. If I blow it up, great. But if I shake it, it's not shooting, and that's good enough.

What's even worse, from a strategic point of view, let's say I shake you on turn three. You could declare a waaagh on turn three to maybe make a charge you might not. Now, you need to decide, use the waagh for the assault, or save it to hopefully get double shots with your plane the next turn.

I wouldn't ever risk the life of my boyz (which is what you are doing when holding back a needed Waagh!) just because 1-3 planes are shaken.

Even AV10 vehicles aren't shaken by nothing, so that's shooting not going into kanz or battlewagons. It's too bad you don't get those 18 shots, but in no way worth risking the backbone of your army.

However, especially with battlewagons I have often found myself not needing the Waaagh! to get into combat, so I often call it at the end of the game to contest objectives, or if Thrakka is present to simply give him his 2++ save or make a unit which is about to break fearless. I guess you could do the same for the jets, just call the Waagh! when you need them to shoot.

Redbeard wrote:

InquisitorVaron wrote:
So doing the math hammer with the updated hitting, 2.6* hits so 1.71 Pens then with the SV that's 0.85, still not enough.

You feel insulted when I suggest you don't know what suppressed means, but then you keep insisting on calculating whether a pen gets through. You don't need to pen a vehicle to suppress it. All I need to do is shake or stun a dakkajet and it's not a threat for the next turn. I can then move on to other targets. That's suppression. If I do more than shake it, good for me. If I blow it up, great. But if I shake it, it's not shooting, and that's good enough.

What's even worse, from a strategic point of view, let's say I shake you on turn three. You could declare a waaagh on turn three to maybe make a charge you might not. Now, you need to decide, use the waagh for the assault, or save it to hopefully get double shots with your plane the next turn.

I would agree with Jidmah there, if my hordes of boyz are close enough to assault with a waaagh it's clear i'm using that.
I understand what supressed means, and the odds of a glancing hit and so on, I will work them into it if you insist. 1.083*
I concede. but that's a very fine line there.
But then we shall look into results that would stop me from unleashing the payload and add that in and it's a 0.721 chance of supressing me, below one there again.

At .72 you will get that result more often than not.

Redbeard is right on this, no matter how you spin the numbers, dakka jets are easy to suppress. That's why you can't rely on them as you only anti-transport shooting, and need at least lootaz in addition.

Mabye so, but it's not a sure fire thing, and I've said before Dakkajets are better for AV10 and Heavy Infantry up to T6-7 (From memory)

Lootas are better for AV11-13, just trying to say Dakkajets do have a place competetively. Even if it does nothing, 18 Str 6 AP 4 shots would put the fear in most IG and Necrons lists.

A command squad would be toast, with ID. First you need to pop the vehicle which Lootas are better for. The two work well in harmony, I wasn't suggesting you ditch lootas entirely. Just drop a squad of 8 for a Dakkajet.

I'm planning on including both lootas and dakkajets in a 1500 point list i'm preparing. It's ment to be a strong, solid list, but I don't expect to be coming home with 1st place prizes. Just something a little different from the norm while still being good.

I'm thinking:

Warboss, pk, bp, cybork- 100pts.

KFF mek- 85pts.

15 burna boyz- 225pts.

5 lootas- 75pts.

5 lootas- 75pts.

19 shoota boyz w/ pk nob w/ bp- 154pts.

19 slugga boyz w/ pk nob w/ bp- 154pts.

dakkajet w/ extra supa-shoota- 135pts(?)

dakkajet w/ extra supa-shoota- 135pts(?)

EDIT: forgot my battlewagons. Three wagons with big shoota, rolla, plates, and riggers. 130 apeace. Of course, now i'm 28 points over... Guess i'll drop two burna boyz or something.

I'm fairly sure that's the price of a dakkajet with extra supa-shoota, but i'm not altogether sure. I won't be taking RPJ because from how i read the rule, it just feels like it was purely intended to just give you an extra inch and let you shoot, not to give cover saves or make it harder to hit in CC. Just seems a bit beardy to me. If a FAQ comes out, then sure, but right now I just won't.

Also, not sure if I should swap the burnas for nobz. I went with burnas instead because I wanted to try something different, but I dunno.

I'd try to fit a unit of gretchin in somehow, but looks similar to what I'm going to do. The tool I'm using to build lists hasn't updated yet, and I'm to lazy to calculate lists by myself

As my dinner table is still littered with pieces of ork planes, I won't be playing them before the weekend anyways

Just out of pure hilarity, here's a 500p list I concocted.

Big Mek 35P

10 Gretchin 1 Runtherd with Grot Prod 45P
10 Gretchin 1 Runtherd with Grot Prod 45P

3 Dakkajets with Supa Shoota and RPJ. 375P

500p, perhaps it could work well at a Doubles 40k tournament? Either way it has a theme to suit my dakka name.

Loota boy, you've priced your jets wrong with a extra supa shoota their 120P and with a RPJ they're 125p.

I had a little proxy game using a different style list but with one dakkajet, I held back from his army wanting to counter charge, the Weirdboy i took for more Waaaghs got me a six on my first turn and the Dakkajet proceded to take out 11 of 35 Gaunts out.

It's strangely like a punisher cannon except twin linked and with AP4. Just something my eyes are picking up but it seems there latest releases all include weapons with lots of shots. IG Punisher cannon, GK heavy psilencer, Orks Dakkajet.

Not complaining though since the jets the best of the bunch

Only 120 points for extra shoota? Nice! Now if i can clear away ten more points, i can fit in that mob of grots that Jidmah suggested...

And Krimsun, that list looks hilarious. I may just have to try it.

I wonder if the Dakkajet is going to render the Fighta obsolete in Apocalypse games.

Nah, the Fighta is still a Flyer and only gets hit on 6s. That said, in Appocalypse I might rather just field a boat load of Dakkajets and Blitzbommas just for doubling the shots during Waaagh.


Totally Awsome Idea here!


15 Dakkajets with extra Supashoota, RPJ, and Fighta Ace

5 Blitzabommas with RPJ

and 5 Warp'eads in a looted Stormraven(for extra Waaaaghs)

Grey Templar wrote:Nah, the Fighta is still a Flyer and only gets hit on 6s. That said, in Appocalypse I might rather just field a boat load of Dakkajets and Blitzbommas just for doubling the shots during Waaagh.


Totally Awsome Idea here!


15 Dakkajets with extra Supashoota, RPJ, and Fighta Ace

5 Blitzabommas with RPJ

and 5 Warp'eads in a looted Stormraven(for extra Waaaaghs)

That's a lot of dakka on wings.

300 twin-linked Supashoota shots a turn(and 5 Boom Bombs)

Thanks loota boy.
I'm probably going to stick with just one at 500p. Or two, perhaps two.

I finally got to unpacking my planes, just to find out that I'm all out of glue and tomorrow is a holiday in Germany

So I'd like to share some details about the model instead:

Almost Enuff Dakka!
There actually are three pairs of supa-shootaz for the model, and you can fit them all on without converting anything. The first pair goes on the wings, where you can also put breaking flaps. Those hold in place without magnetizing and can easily be replaced by those flaps when using one of the bommers rather than the dakka jet. These use the same shootaz as the grot turret, you get four of those. The blitza bommer gets an extra shoota similar to those found on the battlewagon.

The second pair can be put on an optional bit connecting the wings to the plane, as seen on the white dwarf cover. You get two extra-long gun barres for those. I think the connecting thing is a pain to magnetize, you are best off either just leaving them on when running a skorcha bommer, or just magnetizing the gun barrel and replacing it with glyphs. You can easily magnetize it while building the plane, a lot harder to do afterwards. Just put a magnet behind the hole, put a small pieve of metal on the shoota and you're set.

The last two shootas are on the front of the jet, they are also easily magnetized, by putting magnets inside the plane where you would stick them. The shoota mounts are hollow inside, perfect places for magnets.

The bit holding the grot turret and the motor-block like thing behind the pilot are hard to magnetize and will not hold in place by themselves. The single grot shoota works fine though (yes, every variant has completely different models). You are short a gretchin torso though, either just put the cupola on the turret, or use the gretchin gunner from the battle wagon kit. The turret for the burna bommer rotates 360°, the single shoota for the blitza bommer is hull mounted.
The bommer also comes with a full load out of skorcha rokkits (size of rokkits), two skorcha bombs (about the hight of a boy, as thick as a nob arm - they look like torpedos) and two boom bombs (large enough to fit two gretchin or three squigs inside).

Dat's big!
The plane is almost 7" long, depending on how many of the optional wing bits you use 10-12" wide, the lowest part is 4" off ground. The base can be as far as 8" away from a battlewagon without losing KFF protection, a little more than 5" away from a big mek on foot. I did not measure to any weaponry, as that's not hull.

I haz skarf!
You get the choice of three gretchin hads, one new, the other two can also be found on bikers and the battlewagon's grot oiler.
The pilot can have a choice of four heads, one is the same as AOBR koptaz have, one is wearing Zagstrukk's hat (I know who is getting shot next), one is wearing sunglasses and a headset, and the last one is similar to the first, but has a scarf flying in the wind. I guess the scarf is the official WYSIWYG for the fighta ace

Lookin' good!
You have lots of options for putting optional or alternative bits; the wings, turrets and the tailfin can each be modified to get about five or six combinations of different looking planes of the same type out of it. Only downside is that you have to tilt the wings if you ever plan on using all six shootaz, as the bit is not easily magnetized or pinned (see above).

All in all, great model, can't wait to get more glue

I think GW may actually have started to get things right with their newer kits- options, bits and customization galore. Especially with their current Ork line, there's really been no bad models or kits.

Anvildude wrote:I think GW may actually have started to get things right with their newer kits- options, bits and customization galore. Especially with their current Ork line, there's really been no bad models or kits.

I heartily agree.

Can the ork blitz-bomber ever fire its big shoota and supa-shotas together, given that the big shoota points backwards and the supashootas point forwards, and it doesn't have a machine spirit?

Who needs a Machine Spirit when you have a grot gunner?

But yea, no info on firing arcs on WD206. We'll have to wait for the next FAQs, i guess.

For fairness' sake, I'd limit my targets to 180º backwards until we get an answer.

My guess is that 6th edition will change how vehicles fire so that the position of the Grot Gunner makes sense.

I'm thinking vehicles may split fire at 2 seperate targets and PotMS allows an additional target/weapon.

I would say the same thing, that it gets the 180 degree arc at the back.
Another reason for the dakkajet in my eyes.

Actually, this could be a good indication of the 'firing points' or whatever they were called from Pancake edition; where vehicles all had, say, 2 basic, and that doubled if you didn't move too fast, and you could spend them to fire multiple weapons, or spend one to allow yourself to split fire.

I'd like to have a few and run them. Probably three or two. Don't kow if I'd just run one.
I would definately keep them in reserves though, because I don't see them being to good first turn unless you're going first, otherwise you better have some things your opponent wants to kill more, and you likely don't...so as reserves I see them being awesome.
Then again I'd gather that would take some playing with them to be sure.
Which means I would say, go ahead and get you one. If that was still a question.
So much awesome dakka.

Redbeard wrote:Can the ork blitz-bomber ever fire its big shoota and supa-shotas together, given that the big shoota points backwards and the supashootas point forwards, and it doesn't have a machine spirit?

Under the current rules, no way. Well, unless you are passing right in front of a hirophant, I guess
They are both hull mounted (thus 45° LoS), so they will most likely never see the same target.
You get the choice between shooting S6 AP4 at BS2 or S5 BS5 at BS3 though. When shooting light infantry, the later might be better.

Twin-linked bs2, right? So it's always better to fire the supashootas.

Right, it's twin-linked - so the poor grot might be useless after all... unless you lose your supa-shoota.

Well. The supa shoota is actually BS3 TL against most things other than jetbikes and fast skimmers.
The blitza bomba one is nigh on useless.
The burna bomba on the other hand isn't.
Another thing is that it doesn't say anywhere I can't use the grot insider a orb that can swivel.

Bit MFA though.

InquisitorVaron wrote:Well. The supa shoota is actually BS3 TL against most things other than jetbikes and fast skimmers.

It is not. The dakka jet has that ability, not the supa shoota, so the blizza bommer shoots its supa shootas at BS2.

The blitza bomba one is nigh on useless.
The burna bomba on the other hand isn't.

I assume you are referring to the big shootas - In that case I agree with you.

Another thing is that it doesn't say anywhere I can't use the grot insider a orb that can swivel. Bit MFA though.

Actually it says so in the construction manual. Besides that, the turret is armed with a TL-big shoota, and the blizza bommer doesn't have one.

I also wouldn't call that "a bit", it's right with a landraider mounting both sponsons on the same side.

[Edit] - mis-post