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InquisitorVaron wrote:Redbeard, that may be the case against two select armies. There's more armies out there and lists for that matter.

If you're playing for fun, sure. If you're playing in a competitive environment, then if you don't have an answer for GK and IG, you're going to lose, and dakkajets, unfortunately, don't seem to have a place in a competitive ork army.

That's not saying they suck. I'm sure in friendly games, they'll be loads of fun to fly around for a turn or two before getting shot down in flames.

Anung Un Rama wrote:

InquisitorVaron wrote:Secondly, you can still hit the front armour, it's not the end of the world.
On your normal turn you'd get 1.125 Pens, and 2.25 Pens on a Waagh turn.

Considering 1/3 Pens will Wreck or Explode and 1/2 will do serious damage (Wreck, explode, immoblise if a transport or weapon destroy if a shooting tank) then it's safe to say those two hits on the waaagh turn will do just fine, and this isn't including the Glances and it's on AV11.

Now I remember why I spend so little time in the Tactics Forum. Man, I hate Mathhammer.

Thanks for that
Nothing personal I hope.

Redbeard wrote:

InquisitorVaron wrote:Redbeard, that may be the case against two select armies. There's more armies out there and lists for that matter.

If you're playing for fun, sure. If you're playing in a competitive environment, then if you don't have an answer for GK and IG, you're going to lose, and dakkajets, unfortunately, don't seem to have a place in a competitive ork army.

That's not saying they suck. I'm sure in friendly games, they'll be loads of fun to fly around for a turn or two before getting shot down in flames.

Not sure about that, against one army they're highly competitive. Necrons for the reasons I mentioned before, they will get their point back and more.
Now GK, their save pretty much negates any chance of gaining their points back in one turn, unless we're talking about their Dreadnaughts, where getting a rear armour shot would gain their points back, but any competent player probably wouldn't allow that. Side armour would be more realistic but you'd have to be lucky as it's the same as the front armour

There's 11.25 Wounds on a Waaagh! not including saves. with MEQ saves that's 3.75 which would be 75P worth, 50P off your jet.
Against terminators it's 1.875 Wounds which is also 75P worth.
That's at base cost if they've got upgrade it's more, and would be wiser to shoot at the MEQs.
Against the Dreadnight your getting 1.125 Wounds. Which is far less points.
Purifiers are a better bet, most cost 26P considering they upgrade with force halberds and that's 97.5P worth. Still not enough.

Castellan Crowe's a good target, since 1.875 wounds would be caused. That's 140.625P more than your dakkajet, and he's often a feature. So shooting him makes the dakkajet competetive.
But he's only one and a minor thing considering he does almost no damage except if he gets into combat. So I will keep searching.

The Eversor has been used before as has the callidus. The only real difference is points and stealth. I will be using the 4+ Inv.
11.25 Wounds then 4.6875 Wounds after Synskin and the Inv save. Killing both.
Another viable target 130-145P. More than the dakkajet, and they both cause massive damage.

Assuming I get the rear armour on a Autocannon dreadnaught if I'm lucky
Your basic dread is 130P more than the jet.
You will get 4.5 Pens which is enough to get some serious results. So a viable target. Now more likely assuming I hit the front armour.
I get 2.25 Glances which is a 0.375 chance of destroying it. Which equates to 48.75P, not enough.
If for arguements sake you say that weapons destroyed is as good as the wrecked result (It's not)
That's 0.75 chance of doing the damage. That's 97.5P not enough.

So not worth firing upon unless it's rear armour.

Stormraven gun ship, I will assume the immobile result is as bad as the wrecked considering it's always moving fast enough.
If it's a 4+ to hit and 4+ SV for the flat out it's 6.75 hits. 1.125 Glances. 0.375 results that could damage. That's 75P, not good enough again.

Guard are easier, I'm not going to do all of the maths for them but that amount of shots on a command squad or on AV10 needing a 4+ to hit it's going to kill it, and since I don't have the codex I can't do it as accurate. So I won't

But I know that with Guard you will get the points back if they survive, so reserve

Stormravens, and all skimmers, only wreck on an immobilized result if they are immobilized on the player turn in which they move flat out in.

So with shooting there is no way to wreck a skimmer by immobilizing it no matter how far it moved.

Nope, skimmers are wrecked on an immobilised result if they moved flat-out in their previous turn (BRB pg 71, Shooting at Skimmers)

Anyway, I think i've just proved they have their uses, and can be devestating.

As for all the rear-armor shooting discussion: What prevents the GK player from simply have their dreads with the back against the table edge?
Everyone I am playing is hugging the table edge with their leman russes/fire prisms/riflemen or anything else that has decent range and bad rear armor.
The size of the dakka jet means you don't get too close to the edge anyways, so they even have some wiggling space.

Against GK their prime role should be destroying razorbacks, rhinos and maybe shooting some henchmen or MEQ dead (2 kills isn't awesome against tac marines, but it is against purifiers - the bane of orks). You might even get some deathstar unit which isn't fearless to fail a pinning test. I think that would work quite well for a battlewagon bash. In kan wall I would prefer blitza bommers though. If the dread is shooting the bomma, it is not shooting kanz, and the bommer will get a penetrating hit on the dread most of the time. Neither army should replace lootaz with dakka jets though.

Against IG I see much less of a problem. Glancing a manticore turn one (which should be no problem at all) can really tip the scales in your favor. Assuming three dakka jets you can almost count on shaking two of them, and if you have one left, that one can try to stop a chimera, or start dissolving a potential bubble wrap. They might even last longer than lootaz, because your opponent can't simply shell them with artillery once and hope to decimate them. Anything with a little more power isn't shooting kanz or battlewagons, so that's not so bad either.

Grey Templar wrote:Stormravens, and all skimmers, only wreck on an immobilized result if they are immobilized on the player turn in which they move flat out in.
So with shooting there is no way to wreck a skimmer by immobilizing it no matter how far it moved.

Wrong, just as Marauder6272 said.
You're thinking of the "If the transport is wrecked/destroyed in same player turn as the transport moved flat out, embarked unit is automatically destroyed" rule.

InquisitorVaron wrote:

Anung Un Rama wrote:

InquisitorVaron wrote:Secondly, you can still hit the front armour, it's not the end of the world.
On your normal turn you'd get 1.125 Pens, and 2.25 Pens on a Waagh turn.

Considering 1/3 Pens will Wreck or Explode and 1/2 will do serious damage (Wreck, explode, immoblise if a transport or weapon destroy if a shooting tank) then it's safe to say those two hits on the waaagh turn will do just fine, and this isn't including the Glances and it's on AV11.

Now I remember why I spend so little time in the Tactics Forum. Man, I hate Mathhammer.

Thanks for that
Nothing personal I hope.

Sorry, no offense meant. It's not that I have anything against thinking and talking about what option is a good choice in which situation, but where's the fun if you have to use a calculator?

I don't that's my brain

I think Dakkajets are stronger than lootas, your average amount of shots from 8 Lootas equal to the points of the jet is 16 Shots. 2 Less than the jet on a waaagh turn.
They may be 1 Str higher but they're BS2.

So the amount of hits from the Lootas on average would be 5.3, the Dakkajet on the otherhand hits with 13.5 on a Waaagh turn and on a normal turn 6.75.

It's getting more shots out than Lootas for it's points.

Which, without doing the math (should be in this thread anyways), results in lootaz being better against vehicles and dakka jets being better against stuff taking armor saves.

I wouldn't say that without doing the maths
Which I will do because your a lazy git. (Ork speaking)

Assuming a 4+ to hit.
On AV10
Lootas are getting 8 hits, and the Dakkajet 13.5
Lootas are getting 4 pens, and the Jet 4.5 Pens.

AV11
Lootas will get 2.6* Pens, the Dakkajet has 2.25 pens.

And so on the lootas will win, so I would conclude that Lootas are only better against AV11+

But, again, I worry about how easy it is to neutralize an AV10 jet, especially in the current meta, where everyone is packing anti-vehicle guns because of all the rhinos and razors.

You cannot hide thing thing. It flies over all the terrain, and will rarely get a natural cover save. Maybe you can have it hang with a mek, but that's limiting its mobility. If you're shooting, you're vulnerable. Lootas may have low Ld, but they're still infantry, so your opponent has to contend with cover, you can cut off certain lines of sight to them, and one shot will rarely take out the entire group's shooting.

And that +1S is huge because it means you can pen AV12, very important against guard, and it means that you can at least suppress AV13, which seems like it will be an important requirement in the necron matchup.

As, I've stated before in a Necron matchup you use the Dakkajet on troops and the Boyz on Vehicles. Well the nob with PK anyway.

I will agree that's fragile, just wanted to defend it from the whole "Lootas are better firepower" arguement.

I will now mathhammer the amount of Bolters require for a hit that counts, (I won't be assuming the flat out rule since you'll be going 12-13" every turn)

54 Bolters are required to do the damage including the RPJ save. That's 27 Marines in RF range costing 405P, so for the people saying oh you can fire it down with bolters, you may be possible to, but they should be worrying about the boyz, I'd prefer them to shoot the dakkajet instead of the boyz.
And since I wouldn't get into RF range it would be 54 Marines at 810P, not the best move eh?

So now with Redbeards SW long fang spam example.
18 Missile launchers, costing far above your Dakkajet, that's for a sure fire kill.

It's tougher than you might think. I mean all it "might" take is one missile.
Now for fun lets compare that against Lootas in their best circumstances in 3+ cover.

First the 54 Bolter rounds.
36 hit 18 Wound and 6 die, which leaves two lootas who are nigh on ineffectual and probably will run away.

Now with 18 Blast markers assuming they each cover two.
Which means 6 die, about the same amount.

Your choice at the end of the day but I feel that the dakkajet is just more fun reliable and better against certain things.

Lootas still hold the AV13-AV11 crown though, in range anyway.

InquisitorVaron wrote:As, I've stated before in a Necron matchup you use the Dakkajet on troops and the Boyz on Vehicles. Well the nob with PK anyway.

From the necron games I've played, and the battle reports I've seen, I'm not sure you'd have an opportunity to use it on troops until their AV13 transports are dead. It is a good scarab killer...

I will agree that's fragile, just wanted to defend it from the whole "Lootas are better firepower" arguement.

Lootas are better firepower, in that they'll fire for more turns in the game. So far, suggestions for using a dakkajet in a competitive game have ranged from reserving it (ensuring it gets to fire once, but maybe not until turn 4/5), turboing it on the first turn and hoping, or hovering it around a mek (and hoping). None of these seem ideal to me. Even if you guarantee getting 1st turn, I'd expect it to be dead, or at least suppressed, on the turn you need to call a waagh, and I can't think of too many situations where you'd want to blow your waaagh just to get those shots.

I will now mathhammer the amount of Bolters require for a hit that counts, (I won't be assuming the flat out rule since you'll be going 12-13" every turn)

While mathhammer has its place, this isn't it. You're putting far too much weight on numbers and not enough on actual potential uses. No one is going to fire bolters at this unless they're bolter shots that come with a tac squad firing a missile at it, or stormbolter shots that come with the psycannon shots.

54 Bolters are required to do the damage including the RPJ save.

First you said you weren't assuming flat out, so what RPJ save? And, all it takes is one glancing hit to suppress. You expect one glance from six hits, and six hits is only nine marines firing at max-range, IF the rocket misses.

So now with Redbeards SW long fang spam example.
18 Missile launchers, costing far above your Dakkajet, that's for a sure fire kill.

Again, any competitive player isn't going for the kill, they're just going to put the minimum fire on it to suppress it for a turn if it doesn't die. If I were running the longfangs, I'd put either 2-3 missiles on the jet, and the other 2-3 from one squad (that costs roughly the same as the jet) either on a second jet, or on something else. Two rockets at BS4 have a pretty good chance of at least shaking the jet, and that's all that's needed to render it inconsequential.

Now for fun lets compare that against Lootas in their best circumstances in 3+ cover.

First the 54 Bolter rounds.
36 hit 18 Wound and 6 die, which leaves two lootas who are nigh on ineffectual and probably will run away.

Again, your mathhammer is horribly misplaced. Seriously, what ork player is going to let three tac squads get within RF range of their lootas? If 30 marines somehow survived to get that close to the lootas, you've already lost the game. It doesn't matter anymore.

I have ordered three of the bommers. I have a fun event in august. it will be my last games of 5th. I just need to figure out how to field them. My list will contain a warpheard and some battle wagons. the jets are cool looking and fun. the question is to go with three dakkajets or one of each?

I really detest the fact that I have to paint my vehicles red in order to gain "advantages" as an ork. Defeats the whole idea of having a "themed" clan army. For the record I don't paint my stuff red... but if this movement thing pans out... it would be giving up a huge advantage!

Just give them red racing stripes.

You don't have to paint them red, just give them some whot not or bit that represents it well

4 Missiles wouldn't supress the Dakkajet.
I'm not getting into the whole RPJ save discussion but when you move 13" you get the Flat out save but none of the negatives.
4 Missiles wouldn't supress it, and I think your just trying to make it sound worse than the lootas

Has somebody invested a lot of money in 45 Lootas?

I've thought of that, but most folks I've talked about it with claim the dominant color on the vehicle needs to be red, which puts me off.

Have them show you the rules where it says that. If they can't proove that the vehicle MUST be mostly red thent hey are wrong.

Yeah, and it's not like you gain any advantages for having less red on the vehicle... Whoever is saying that is being ridiculous.

InquisitorVaron wrote:
I'm not getting into the whole RPJ save discussion but when you move 13" you get the Flat out save but none of the negatives.

Apparently, you are getting into it. I don't believe it works that way, and until I see a GW FAQ that says so, I'm not going to force my opponents to play that way.

4 Missiles wouldn't supress the Dakkajet.

4 Missiles wouldn't supress it, and I think your just trying to make it sound worse than the lootas

Do you know what suppress means?

Has somebody invested a lot of money in 45 Lootas?

This has nothing to do with what I've invested in. For the record, yes, I've got 45 lootas. I've also got three of these new jets, and a whole lot of other orks besides. The jets will be a lot of fun. But just because they make a model doesn't mean it has a place in a tournament list. I've got a whole lot of orks that I play with for fun, but wouldn't take to a tournament. If you're going to enter a battle against all comers where you know 25% of the field will be Grey Knights and another 25% will be either IG or SW, it simply doesn't make a lot of sense to tie up a lot of points in AV10 vehicles.

I just assumed it was some kind of "understood standard", but I'm glad to hear it's not. I actually had some cool ideas of how to get a decent amount of red on vehicles without actually having to make them red throughout. Good to there's room for argument on this point.

There was a suggestion made not too long ago that you could say "My orks are Bad Moons and they think that yellow goes fasta!", insert appropriate Clan and color for your army.

Ah yes... the oft-used "Yellow Ones go Fasta" rule! Because you know... banana peals are slick & slippery... like our vehicles.

put a red button on the dashboard. Red one makes it go fast.

Well, my orks are deffskulls, so I can just say that they are painted red underneath the blue.

Whoever it was that said that to me, thank you for the best excuse ever.

Redbeard wrote:

InquisitorVaron wrote:
I'm not getting into the whole RPJ save discussion but when you move 13" you get the Flat out save but none of the negatives.

Apparently, you are getting into it. I don't believe it works that way, and until I see a GW FAQ that says so, I'm not going to force my opponents to play that way.

4 Missiles wouldn't supress the Dakkajet.

4 Missiles wouldn't supress it, and I think your just trying to make it sound worse than the lootas

Do you know what suppress means?

I find that little quip rather insulting, it's not even like you've taken any time at all to check out your claim.
But I will do that for you.
4 Missile shots assuming a 4+ to hit that's 2 Hits, 1.3 Pens and the 4+ SV makes that 0.6*
That's not above one so your claim of 4 is bust, you'd need 8 to get onto the the damage table.

But I am missing out glances but even so with two it's not likely your getting onto the damage table.
Unless we're playing how you think it is with RPJ, even though the guys over at YMDC pretty much all concur with me.
But we shall leave that at YMDC so don't quote it

InquisitorVaron wrote:Do you know what suppress means?

I find that little quip rather insulting, it's not even like you've taken any time at all to check out your claim.
But I will do that for you.

skkipper wrote:put a red button on the dashboard. Red one makes it go fast.

I gave my "pilot" a red-sunglasses... lol... 'cuz, seeing RED makes him go fasta!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote:

InquisitorVaron wrote:Do you know what suppress means?

Unless we're playing how you think it is with RPJ, even though the guys over at YMDC pretty much all concur with me.
But we shall leave that at YMDC so don't quote it

Them over there at YMDC have been overruled by GW FAQs in the past. In my experience, until there is an FAQ, the good sportsmanship approach is to assume that what is best for your opponent is the way it is. In this case, I would not feel right taking that 4+ save until GW clarified that I was allowed to.

I've seen it both ways at tournaments... this is one of those cases that I'd clear it with the TO and your player (like the Deffrolla, DS, hexrifle debates). Once that's confirm, you'd adjust your tactic accordingly.

Anyhoo... I really think they're a great addition to a Kult of Speed list since the point of those armies is to deliver the massed boyz (or bikerz) to the enemy. If your opponent is taking pot shots at the DakkaJets in turn 1 or 2... the boyz are onto them. (which is the point!) If they tried to out smart you by trying to take out da boyz... well... the dakkajets can bring the lead storm....