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yeah sorry I just couldnt help it. Really wish GW would just FAQ it already and get it over with. This rule confuses everyone I know and causes flamewars constantly. Only reason I called the guy out was because he essentially said "hey guys, GW says it works this way!" and yet we can never find proof one way or the other...

Has there ever been a verdict on it? Heck I'll even take a faq from a tourney or something, anything just to clear it up a bit.

@MrMoustaffa you play Cities of Death? that could be one way of keeping your flyers alive.

and I thought osmeone might have said this prior but using them just as a distracter so other troops can move without being touch might be a good use for this but for what the 200 points? that might be a little high for a sacrificial lamb.

MrMoustaffa wrote:No offense guys, but I wont believe this whole "if we move 13", we can shoot AND get the 4+ save!" Thing until I see it in a FAQ.

reason being is that the rule says, quote:

Red paint Job: "Ork vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to their movement phase but do not incur penalties for this extra inch. For example, a vehicle could move 13" and still count as moving 12." pg. 93 ork codex

You still count for all intensive purposes as moving 12 inches. It's just you got to move an extra inch instead. You would still count as cruising, even though you went 13. By "no penalties" they seem to imply that moving 13" still lets you fire you fire your weapons, disembark, etc.

And also, no offense to the dude who called customer support, but do you have any proof? For all we know, you could be lying and just be hoping we accept it as fact.

Understandable. Why don't you call them tomorrow when they open back up?

Also, Here is the definition of the RPJ from the WD Update:
"Ork Vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to their move in the Movement phase, but do not incur penalties for this extra inch. For example, a vehicle could move 13" [thus gaining the save] and still count as moving 12" [thus allowing the shots to be made]."

Just curious, I assume the brackets are where you're pointing out your logic right? Just making sure, because otherwise thats the same entry as the codex. I see where you're coming from as well, I'm just wondering if thats what was intended. For a 5pts, it seems like an insanely useful upgrade. Hence skepticism

Either way, I imagine GW will have to make some comment on it, otherwise there will be people raging over ork fighters moving 13" during a WAAAAAGH so they can fire 18 shot and still get a cover save .

Also, at mikewars, a fully kitted out dakkajet (rpj, extra supa shoota, and ace) comes in at 135pts if i remember correctly, so it wouldnt be too bad. Thats about what you pay for 3 deffkoptas.

Yes, brackets in a quote are for additional words that aren't in the original quote.

ahhh three deff kotpas or one dakka jet... idk.. i'd have to say jet.

what does supersonic entail?

You can Flat Out up to 36"

mikewars85 wrote:ahhh three deff kotpas or one dakka jet... idk.. i'd have to say jet.

what does supersonic entail?

I took both. That way there are many close threats while the others get a chance to get close.

You can go 36" at flat out speed.

that's impressive. you can get up right up to some transports (if you go second)

Sadly I doubt anyone will let a jet last more then the first turn.

mikewars85 wrote:that's impressive. you can get up right up to some transports (if you go second)

Sadly I doubt anyone will let a jet last more then the first turn.

Haha. That's what my Tau playing friend said. "That thing is going down first!" Of course, he's notorious for being out of favor with the dice gods (and the rest bounce off my KFFs).

I think I'll start it near a battlewagon with a KFF Mek in it. That ought to solve the problem.

DakkaHammer wrote:

loota boy wrote:

Redbeard wrote:So much for Bad Moon and Goff jets :(

And deff skulls, blood axes and maybe snakebites...

Nah, deathskulls planes could be painted red under the blue.

Most of my battlewagons and my trukks are painted in red camouflage (and each one in a different style). Nothing is stopping bloodaxes from bombing stuff


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MrMoustaffa wrote:Just curious, I assume the brackets are where you're pointing out your logic right? Just making sure, because otherwise thats the same entry as the codex. I see where you're coming from as well, I'm just wondering if thats what was intended. For a 5pts, it seems like an insanely useful upgrade. Hence skepticism

Either way, I imagine GW will have to make some comment on it, otherwise there will be people raging over ork fighters moving 13" during a WAAAAAGH so they can fire 18 shot and still get a cover save .

Also, at mikewars, a fully kitted out dakkajet (rpj, extra supa shoota, and ace) comes in at 135pts if i remember correctly, so it wouldnt be too bad. Thats about what you pay for 3 deffkoptas.

I know YMDC looks like a minefield to many people, but if you really doubt how it works, maybe check the thread about dakka jets there?

I'd hate to have a perfectly fine tactics thread turning into a redundant argument we are already having at a different place.

^^ I agree Jidmah...

Here's my idea for using DakkaJets...


This would be all bikerz 2000 pts on the nose:
Wazzie
Boss on bike, PK, BP

1x unit of 5 Kommandos, plus Snikrot and 2 burnas

1x unit of 6 Nob Bikers, 2x PK, 3x BC, 2x BP, banner, 1x doc, cybork'ed
4x units of 4 Warbiker plus 1 Nob with PK/BP

1x unit of 3 DeffKopts: 1 with BS/Rokkit, 1 with Rokkit, 1 with KMB

2x units of DakkaJets with RPJ, xtra supra gunz, and upgraded to Ace (BS3)

This might be better, but may not be enough shooty (they're orks, do we really care?):
Boss on bike, PK, BP, Attack squig

1x unit of 5 Kommandos, plus Snikrot and 2 burnas

1x unit of 6 Nob Bikers, 2x PK, 3x BC, 2x BP, banner, 1x doc, cybork'ed
5x units of 11 Slugg/Choppas plus 1 Nob with PK/BP in TRUKK with ram

1x unit of 4 DeffKopts: 1 with BS/Rokkit, 1 with Rokkit, 1 with BS/KMB, 1 with KMB

2x units of DakkaJets with RPJ, xtra supra gunz, and upgraded to Ace (BS3)

I'm thinking the green tide works well with it.
Should your missiles take out the Jet or the loads of Orks hurtling towards you?
With a Weirdboy you might teleport in Zzzap something and so on, and the Waaagh for more dakka!

InquisitorVaron wrote:I'm thinking the green tide works well with it.
Should your missiles take out the Jet or the loads of Orks hurtling towards you?
With a Weirdboy you might teleport in Zzzap something and so on, and the Waaagh for more dakka!

This shows a lack of understanding of the green tide. The green tide works by denying your opponent any good targets to use their anti-tank guns on, while maximizing the number of boyz you field. Spending 120 points on an airplane is 20 boyz you're not fielding, and gives your opponent something valuable to shoot their lascannons at.

The idea might work if you replace "green tide" with "kan wall" though

So it's 125P for the ideal Dakkajet.
Move 13" a turn get the 4+ SV rain 9 shots down with 18 on a waaagh!

Not bad, at least it gets people using the fast attack for orks, but it's around 8 Lootas worth which pump out more shots with a further range and higher strength. Less BS skill and non TL though, and less reliable with 8-24 shots.

The dakkajet is a faster (So same effective range) more reliable small mob of lootas?

InquisitorVaron wrote:The dakkajet is a faster (So same effective range) more reliable small mob of lootas?

Not entirely. The difference between S7 and S6 is significant, especially versus Grey Knights (you need to pen those dreads) and mech guard (who spam an AV12 wall). Also, while their shooting range is about the same, their safe range is not. Lootas can hang out 48" away and avoid a lot of shots. Getting 12" closer makes you a target for more guns. And all it takes is one shaken result to suppress the plane.

Redbeard wrote:

InquisitorVaron wrote:The dakkajet is a faster (So same effective range) more reliable small mob of lootas?

Not entirely. The difference between S7 and S6 is significant, especially versus Grey Knights (you need to pen those dreads) and mech guard (who spam an AV12 wall). Also, while their shooting range is about the same, their safe range is not. Lootas can hang out 48" away and avoid a lot of shots. Getting 12" closer makes you a target for more guns. And all it takes is one shaken result to suppress the plane.

Yes but with their mobility you can shoot them on their AV10 on their back. Which is not possible with the lootas. Loots also have the problem of morale in low numbers. So I think that both have strong and weaker points and it is not such an easy choice.

Bacms wrote:Yes but with their mobility you can shoot them on their AV10 on their back.

Really? It's a nice theory, but try that in a game and let me know how it works out for you. Against a competent opponent, not the 12-year-old at the gamestore.

Maybe not against Dreadnoughts, but against IG or any other mech spam army its not going to be hard for the jet to get rear shots on something. especially without said vehicles being exposed to your lootas at the same time(you will be taking both right?)

Redbeard wrote:

Bacms wrote:Yes but with their mobility you can shoot them on their AV10 on their back.

Really? It's a nice theory, but try that in a game and let me know how it works out for you. Against a competent opponent, not the 12-year-old at the gamestore.

Well, doesn't the dakka jet count as always hitting on side armor? So mech gaurd doesn't seem that tough, sence you're just getting to shoot AV 10.

Why does the dakkajet always hit on the side armour? Is it a rule or are you commenting on its mobility? Thanks.

It has no such rule. But its mobility is definitly giving it an advantage.

Redbeard, the two most common (In my eyes) ways of playing with these would be to reserve or to turbo-boost on the first turn.

A unlucky reserve would stop you from hitting the back armour since you would be coming from your spawn, on either side of the table though it's not too difficult to get the rear AV.

Likewise with turbo-boosting (Unless we're talking big games big boards) Your moving 36-37" then 12-13" after that, so 48-50". Once again easy back armour, if they survive that is.

I'm torn I feel vehicle squad rules make rokkit buggies more survivable esp if you use terrain to limit what can fire at htem / to gain cover from units. and 3 tl rokkitsat str 8 ap3 makes for some good anti meq and anti vehicle...

but the mass str 6 shots is nothing to snear at either can do more damage vs non meq armies and can still chip away at vehicles... shooting a razerback with 9 str 6 shots should do somehting , at least prevent it from being able to fire the next turn and hopefullt clance it to death with weapon destroyed results if not outright

the realt advantage though for rokkit buggies imo would be necrons, str 6 isn't going to be able to do anythign vs quantum shielding. then again I think i;m ogign to experiment with just 1 dakka jet. i'll probably get 2-3 cause i like the models and magnetize them for loadouts. the burna-bommer looks cool assumign you cna buy all 6 scorcha missiles and use them in the same fire all 6 in the same turn which if I am reading it right would work.. missiles cna go at a different target and just unload it all turn 1

InquisitorVaron wrote:Redbeard, the two most common (In my eyes) ways of playing with these would be to reserve or to turbo-boost on the first turn.

I'm not sure I agree.

Let's say you want to go the reserves route. The main competition is going to be a reserved unit of deffkoptas, or snikrot, both of which can mess with alternate table edges. Dakkajets don't appear to outflank, so while you might be able to get sideshots coming in at the very edges, I'm not sure it's the best of strategies, considering the alternatives.

On the other hand, turbo-boosting on the first turn might let you live to see a waaagh turn, but I wouldn't count on it. You're only AV10, and a 4+ cover save only goes so far (when I'm rolling, it doesn't even go that far). Against the enemy units showing up in competitive games, though, namely psyfledreads and hydras, I think you're still toast, and didn't even shoot on the first turn. The hydra ignores your fast-moving save, and the psyfledread is likely to make you roll at least 3 saves.

Grey Templar wrote:It has no such rule. But its mobility is definitly giving it an advantage.

Ah, sorry, I think i'm cinfused with another rule. Would Apoc. Fliers happen to have that rule?

All the same, I think side shots should be a walk in the park for these guys.

Redbeard, that may be the case against two select armies. There's more armies out there and lists for that matter.

Secondly, you can still hit the front armour, it's not the end of the world.
On your normal turn you'd get 1.125 Pens, and 2.25 Pens on a Waagh turn.

Considering 1/3 Pens will Wreck or Explode and 1/2 will do serious damage (Wreck, explode, immoblise if a transport or weapon destroy if a shooting tank) then it's safe to say those two hits on the waaagh turn will do just fine, and this isn't including the Glances and it's on AV11.

On AV12 you just substitute the pens for glances and it still should result in some good damage.

My point being, on AV10 it will be certain to kill (In mathhammer) yet it still can hurt front and side AV.

With it's effective range of 43" it can dart in from quite a distance and do it's stuff, I think it's tougher than people might expect.

With multiples you can always shield the others out of LOS, considering they're the same model. With clever placement anyway.

So I was thinking whether or not to run just a basic dakka jet to cover my RPJ extra Supa Shoota ones.
Or to stick with the reserve or turbo boost tactic.

Yeah, i got the model and its a pleasure to build. In my opinion its one of the units you get because the models are good and less so because the unit is good.

InquisitorVaron wrote:Secondly, you can still hit the front armour, it's not the end of the world.
On your normal turn you'd get 1.125 Pens, and 2.25 Pens on a Waagh turn.

Considering 1/3 Pens will Wreck or Explode and 1/2 will do serious damage (Wreck, explode, immoblise if a transport or weapon destroy if a shooting tank) then it's safe to say those two hits on the waaagh turn will do just fine, and this isn't including the Glances and it's on AV11.

Now I remember why I spend so little time in the Tactics Forum. Man, I hate Mathhammer.