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Skriker wrote:

loota boy wrote:The same reason that blood angels are the only ones who can field Baal preds, or furioso dreads? Why can only space wolves take long fangs and thunderwolf cavalry? How come only Dark Angels gets Raven wing? Why do Templars have to hog all the neophytes? How come only grey knights have paladins and purifiers?

The codexes are barely different from each other to begin with, that's why. They need every ounce of individualism they can get.

Actually a lot of the special rules that separate the marine chapters are kind of dumb. The only reason we have such stupid limitations and unavailablity to other marine chapters is to make the chapters "unique". All a bunch of crap to make you buy more armies to use all the minis you want to use. The books are written in vaccuums too so that you can't even easily mix and match from the various marine codecies to play the army you want with your friends. Prices vary too widely between the various books. Also the units that are unique to various forces don't all have to be. The death company is an example of a truly unique unit for blood angels. Meanwhile there is just no really good reason for Blood angels to be the only force with access to baal predators, or librarian/chaplain dreadnoughts. Just dumb. Also why should long fangs have a special ability to split fire that *any* unit should be able to do to. Yep they are long lived...so is every other space marine in any other chapter who is a devastator. Unless killed in battle they are going to be around for quite some time, but can never get good enough with their weapons like long fangs to be able to shoot separate units. Just dumb... Limiting the stormtalon to some, but not all space marine forces would be just as dumb. There is no balance reason to do it. The only reason is to make you stop playing your current favorite army to buy and paint an almost identical army in different colors just so you can use the cool new model...

Skriker

Oh, i agree entirely. Most of the differences in each marine codexes are really, really forced, and could be achieved by a special charcater or two. Blood Angels? Maked Dante a special HQ in vanilla SM, and have him make assault marines troops and replace chapter tactics with furious charge. Then let him take a special honor gaurd that would essentially by death company. Done.

kitch102 wrote:Eh? The scout sergeant decides where a scouts talents will be best placed, so he can be a scout then dev OR assault OR tactical.

Source: eye of vengeance

According to the C:SM entries for those units Devs are seen.as.PA training, a chance to see the galaxy as a Battlebrother. Once they complete that they become assault marines and train.in Melee.

Tac squads need to be flexible so only those who have completed Dev and Assault rounds will be.in one. They are just too important.

As for how long getting to be a Sternguard or Vanguard is, I am not sure. It may be you are put on an honours list and every year they pick 5.people to join the 1st 150 years sounds reasonable. But remember that VV and SV simply choose which type of squad. Those who prefer shooting go Stern, those who prefer melee and have been upgraded from Assault Marine become Vanguard.


As for scout Sgts, I believe they just help with squad placement.

Example

Scout A sucks at melee so after Devs he'll go to Assault Squad 1 because they do a lot of training.
Scout B is.ok at Melee but doesn't like Heavy Weapons so Dev Squad 9 will take him because they are really good at their job.

Generally , it is a good looking craft , but i faced 12 of them in an Apoc game ( yes 12 ) and my Cadians armed with plasma guns shot them all down in the first turn of shooting .......... not a winning propasisiton i lose ONE guardsmen ......to a gets hot roll

Skriker wrote:

loota boy wrote:The same reason that blood angels are the only ones who can field Baal preds, or furioso dreads? Why can only space wolves take long fangs and thunderwolf cavalry? How come only Dark Angels gets Raven wing? Why do Templars have to hog all the neophytes? How come only grey knights have paladins and purifiers?

The codexes are barely different from each other to begin with, that's why. They need every ounce of individualism they can get.

Actually a lot of the special rules that separate the marine chapters are kind of dumb. The only reason we have such stupid limitations and unavailablity to other marine chapters is to make the chapters "unique". All a bunch of crap to make you buy more armies to use all the minis you want to use. The books are written in vaccuums too so that you can't even easily mix and match from the various marine codecies to play the army you want with your friends. Prices vary too widely between the various books. Also the units that are unique to various forces don't all have to be. The death company is an example of a truly unique unit for blood angels. Meanwhile there is just no really good reason for Blood angels to be the only force with access to baal predators, or librarian/chaplain dreadnoughts. Just dumb. Also why should long fangs have a special ability to split fire that *any* unit should be able to do to. Yep they are long lived...so is every other space marine in any other chapter who is a devastator. Unless killed in battle they are going to be around for quite some time, but can never get good enough with their weapons like long fangs to be able to shoot separate units. Just dumb... Limiting the stormtalon to some, but not all space marine forces would be just as dumb. There is no balance reason to do it. The only reason is to make you stop playing your current favorite army to buy and paint an almost identical army in different colors just so you can use the cool new model...

Skriker

BA don't have access to Chaplain Dreads,, they're forge world
And Baal preds are a design that the BA discovered and hid on Baal only sharing it with their own, so why should it be available to ultramarines and their ilk?? (although I agree with you on libby dreads)

Long Fangs SR is stupid but Kelly shouldn't of been given that book to write.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

BA don't have access to Chaplain Dreads,, they're forge world
And Baal preds are a design that the BA discovered and hid on Baal only sharing it with their own, so why should it be available to ultramarines and their ilk?? (although I agree with you on libby dreads)

Long Fangs SR is stupid but Kelly shouldn't of been given that book to write.

I have to disagree on the not sharing technology bit, Space Marines are Space Marines 1st and foremost. They all share common genetic material (give or take some mutations and organs that work to a better or lesser degree). As a fighting force, they all use the same Weapons, same power armour (in various Mks) and have a common belief in the Emperor and Imperium, to horde technology within a chapter (because say you found the STC of the Assault Cannon ala BA ) and not share is almost heresy, as it is denying your own side weaponry which could turn the tide? Ultramarines do not "OWN" technology, but due to their spawning more chapters than any other and having a stable gene-seed their influence is probably greater. Like the British Armies influence over Commonwealth Armies which have often fallen out of or copied the British Army model rather than say copying the US Model or Soviet one.

The key point I'm making is the differences are often differences, for their own sake. There is no fluffy reason anywhere, why the BA should have "Fast Tanks", they can have the Baal Predator they invented it (unsure why they don't share it?), but I see no reason Doctorinally for the BA to have Fast Tanks. Possibly for the White Scars as it fits their ethos and doctorine, maybe even an upgrade for a Character like Sgt Kronos. Equally I see no real reason why Long Fangs get Fire Control over Signum? It is simply does not make sense and is one of the reasons why moderate players with middle of the road players like me think, why the hell play C:SM, I am outclassed at almost all levels by the build options of BA, SW & GK. Many then cite things like "But you get TFC's and LSS and other stuff", yes I do but I don't get a 5 HW dev squad that can split fire and is cheaper than my Devs for example, there are many, many others. A BA player was telling me my Predators are 20pts cheaper, yep they are, but I would rather have a Baal Predator or one of those lovely Flamestorm cannons, or lots of FNP options, or Assault Squads as Troops, or a group of wild Death Company, or a snippy snippy Talon Dreadnought. This isn't grass is green syndrome, it's an objective look at the options and points costings, and you seriously must be on a different plane of existence if you don't acknowledge that BA, SW & GK are more powerful than even a good list in C:SM.

Just put together my stormtalon. I think it looks awesome and it was actually pretty easy to put together. Overall, I really like this model and am excited to use it.

Well I am 3/4 finished painting mine. Need to do bone parts, metals and pilot and tranfers.

Well I finally figured out what it looks like



There was some discussion about what nickname we should give the Stormtalon, I was favoring the Chibi Hawk Jr. but now I think the Flying Flapjack might win my heart.

The one we're using at my FLGS is the battle budgie

Kid_Kyoto wrote: I was favoring the Chibi Hawk Jr.

Sold, Chibi Hawk Jr FTW.

I like it.

It looks more like a submarine than an aircraft if you ask me.

mwnciboo wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

BA don't have access to Chaplain Dreads,, they're forge world
And Baal preds are a design that the BA discovered and hid on Baal only sharing it with their own, so why should it be available to ultramarines and their ilk?? (although I agree with you on libby dreads)

Long Fangs SR is stupid but Kelly shouldn't of been given that book to write.

I have to disagree on the not sharing technology bit, Space Marines are Space Marines 1st and foremost.

You can disagree all you want, but the fluff doesn't.

mwnciboo wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

BA don't have access to Chaplain Dreads,, they're forge world
And Baal preds are a design that the BA discovered and hid on Baal only sharing it with their own, so why should it be available to ultramarines and their ilk?? (although I agree with you on libby dreads)

Long Fangs SR is stupid but Kelly shouldn't of been given that book to write.

I have to disagree on the not sharing technology bit, Space Marines are Space Marines 1st and foremost.

who owe their loyalty to their Primarch, the emperor and The Imperium.

And dante has tried to appease the ad mech at other points,
And besides it fits their fluff-wise play style. Arguably the White Scars would want them but they don't want a civil war on their hands

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:And besides it fits their fluff-wise play style. Arguably the White Scars would want them but they don't want a civil war on their hands

What part of the White Scars asking the Blood Angels to have access to the baal predator designs would lead to a civil war? Would be helpful if the Emperor weren't just a coma patient in a throne. He would sort everyone out and get everyone back with the "one big happy Imperium" program...but alas he can't so won't.

Skriker

This new release follows my initial sentiments of the stormraven -- just awful looking. I dont like the clipped wings, the massive missile launcer/lascannon ports hanging off the sides, and the landing gear fixed to the rotating turret??? So it uses the autocannon turrent to land? I think in both instances (stormraven and storm talon) GW had been producing vehicles so long that they forgot how to tank the tank elements out of a flyer....which proved to be detrmental to the design of both of these models. Although, they will never know how grand of a mistake they made....because players and hobbiests alike will swarm stores to buy both. When you have products shoved in your face, eventually you become conditioned to think they look good.....which is what happened to me with the storm raven, and im sure in due time the talon will persuade me to add one to my vanilla marines.

My point on BA was not just Baal Predators, it is the stupid "Fast Tanks" rule.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You can disagree all you want, but the fluff doesn't.

The fluff has been written and re-written so many times, it's as leaky as the bible. Fluff can be contradictory or plain ret-conned into line. If not then we wouldn't be seeing all this new Tech like the Storm-Talon...Oh hold on we are technologically stagnant, we've actually had the Storm-Talon for 10,000years but no one thought to mention it until now, so to base everything on being fluff is plain silly. It's even worse when Uber-powered units get fluffed up, so now there are fluffy reasons why the Blood Angels get fast tanks, no one, for one second, questions it?

Hopefully many of the errors over the years will be retconned out I'm talking about "He who shall not be named" additions to Codex's.

More boxy, bigger engines.
Always a winner in the imperial navy.

Great, another thread hijacked by Mat Ward hate and Space Marine codex condensers.

Move along people, nothing to see here...

@SoloFalcon1138 I don't really like the storm talon, I don't like the "Kewl" 40k approach of lets make 40k into the game we want because it would be "kewler" with apache type gunships and re-write the original fluff to be more correct (re-writing those bit's we didn't like or contradict what we want to do now). If you want to let people run away with the hobby, and encourage codex creep great, but don't think that it's good for competition play or balance. It will always get alot of peoples backs up and when that kind of thing gets vented well it's going to be around gaming tables and Forums.