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I would like to see a chaos united codex all the forces of chaos united, marines daemons and the other chaos forces cultists chaos xenos mutants etc

I would like any new xeno race. This game needs more "alien" races, not factions of the imperium, for or against.

Buttons wrote:Honestly, if you suddenly lost a space marine codex you have to do absolutely nothing except pick up Codex: Space Marine, or one of the other three flavours, you don't even need to repaint them.

And my army would be rubbish, forcing me to purchase new stuff anyway, unless I were playing some form of Razorspam, in which case everyone and their mother will complain about how dull and uninspired my army is.

Could any Space Marine Codex's models instantly switch to another Codex? Yes. Would that be a functioning army? Doubtful. I'll give the examples again: What army other than Deathwing fields loads of assault terminators with heavy weapons? Who other than C:SM play all-bike lists? Who other than Blood Angels play with lots and lots of Assault Marines? Who other than Grey Knights have power weapons and storm bolters everywhere? Who other than Black Templars have dual heavy weapon Terminators and massive blobs of angry people running at the enemy?

Is it as bad for a Space Marine player to lose his or her Codex as it is for anyone else? No. Is it bad enough that it is a really bad idea? IMO, yes.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:The thing is, though, other than Razorspam lists the different Marine Codices really don't share builds, which means that any Marine player that isn't playing Razorspam and wants to remain competetive if his or her Codex is removed will have to buy loads of new stuff anyway, just like everyone else. Who other than Deathwing runs an army of all-Assault Terminators with heavy weapons (and if you say Loganwing I'll punch you over the internet)? What army other than C:SM runs all-bike lists? Who other than Blood Angels play an all-deep-strike Assault Marine list? Who other than Black Templars play with combined, massive squads of Marines running across the board to punch people in the face?

Log-- oh. There's no reason to lose those builds. The vast majority of the varient chapter codices are filler. Sure, the fluff and pictures might be nice, but they're by no means essential. The actual rules deviations are fairly minor, and could easily be fit in a smaller space. So you wouldn't have to change builds to become competitive.

Regarding the Index Astartes comparison, a lot of people (rightfully, I might add) threw a tantrum when variant lists such as Craftworld Eldar were removed, but people are just fine with the same thing happening to Space Marines.

Specific craftworlds never had their own codices, though. They were in 'bonus' books, like Codex: Eye of Terror. This would be the same thing as that, but with more comprehensive rules differences.

Finally, I don't consider adding one special character unlocking one unit and giving one Chapter Tactics as "covering" an army. Imperial Guard players aren't pleased with the current way of portraying different armies, Chaos aren't very pleased with their 'dex and Eldar aren't exactly extatic either. I don't see why it'd be a good idea to make some Space Marine players feel the same.

I hate the requried special characters to make your army work. A re-organised FOC and unit allowance, some key special rules, and a couple of unique units pretty much defines the special Marine books (not counting GK on this one, they're a whole separate issue). As I said above, you wouldn't have to lose any of the flavour of the list, and wouldn't have to rebuild your list at all.

There's also one key bonus to this structure. Your codex would update more frequently. Black Templar players are unhappy with the time between updates for their codex right now. Dark Angels players have a codex that very much feels like the practice run for the 5E vanilla codex. Now, if they had been released together in this unified chapter codex, all the varient chapters could have a codex as recent as Space Wolves or Blood Angels. You can't tell me that wouldn't be a good thing for the game.

Maybe some sort of codex for native flora and fauna? Y'know, exploding broccoli or something

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Buttons wrote:Honestly, if you suddenly lost a space marine codex you have to do absolutely nothing except pick up Codex: Space Marine, or one of the other three flavours, you don't even need to repaint them.

And my army would be rubbish, forcing me to purchase new stuff anyway, unless I were playing some form of Razorspam, in which case everyone and their mother will complain about how dull and uninspired my army is.

Could any Space Marine Codex's models instantly switch to another Codex? Yes. Would that be a functioning army? Doubtful. I'll give the examples again: What army other than Deathwing fields loads of assault terminators with heavy weapons? Who other than C:SM play all-bike lists? Who other than Blood Angels play with lots and lots of Assault Marines? Who other than Grey Knights have power weapons and storm bolters everywhere? Who other than Black Templars have dual heavy weapon Terminators and massive blobs of angry people running at the enemy?

Is it as bad for a Space Marine player to lose his or her Codex as it is for anyone else? No. Is it bad enough that it is a really bad idea? IMO, yes.

So your army won't be the most competitive for a while, it isn't the best thing, but it is a sacrifice I will be willing to have other people take to make the game more diverse. In all seriousness, I don't hate the marine codexes for existing, but they are simply too numerous, even in 6th edition at least three marine codexes will probably come out, as well as SoB and maybe IG, which adds up a lot when armies like Tau and Eldar really need an update. Perhaps they could come out and say "we won't update (insert a marine codex here) don't expect a new codex ever, but you can still play it at tournaments and their rules will still be accepted." Then you could keep playing your army while slowly buying models that work better with another codex.

Sunoccard wrote:Admech is the one I'd be most excited for and so would a lot of other people. Problem Is I really don't want to see another Imperial abomination ala grey knights.

Codex: Renegades and Heretics would be appreciated, something like the older Lost and the Damned.

There is a Renegade and Heretics Codex on Forgeworld, along with Death Korps of Krieg.

I would say a unified codex for Space marines (and all their different chapters) a Chaos codex (deamons, heretics, cultists and marines altogether) an Adeptus Mechanicus codex, a unified Inquisition codex (which covers all the different branches) OR ANY codex that isn't IoM

Xeno Hunters I call.

htj wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:The thing is, though, other than Razorspam lists the different Marine Codices really don't share builds, which means that any Marine player that isn't playing Razorspam and wants to remain competetive if his or her Codex is removed will have to buy loads of new stuff anyway, just like everyone else. Who other than Deathwing runs an army of all-Assault Terminators with heavy weapons (and if you say Loganwing I'll punch you over the internet)? What army other than C:SM runs all-bike lists? Who other than Blood Angels play an all-deep-strike Assault Marine list? Who other than Black Templars play with combined, massive squads of Marines running across the board to punch people in the face?

Log-- oh. There's no reason to lose those builds. The vast majority of the varient chapter codices are filler. Sure, the fluff and pictures might be nice, but they're by no means essential. The actual rules deviations are fairly minor, and could easily be fit in a smaller space. So you wouldn't have to change builds to become competitive.

My arguments are aimed at the suggestion that one or more Marine Codices should flat out be dropped, not against the consolidation of books. If it's done properly it could work, but I don't trust GW to do it properly. Furthermore, as I've already said, I don' see the various Chapters being properly represented by a few USRs in a unified Codex.

Ideally, I'd want things to have different costs in the various Marine Codices to make them take different units. For example, make the ranged weapons in Codex: Black Templars more expensive, but provide cheaper or better melee alternatives, pushing them toward melee-centric lists and removing the Razorspam-style army as the one unifying theme.

Here's a thought: if GW made the various variant Marine Codices more different from each other, would that be an acceptable fix or would the simple fact that they're Space Marines mean that they "have to go"?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

htj wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:The thing is, though, other than Razorspam lists the different Marine Codices really don't share builds, which means that any Marine player that isn't playing Razorspam and wants to remain competetive if his or her Codex is removed will have to buy loads of new stuff anyway, just like everyone else. Who other than Deathwing runs an army of all-Assault Terminators with heavy weapons (and if you say Loganwing I'll punch you over the internet)? What army other than C:SM runs all-bike lists? Who other than Blood Angels play an all-deep-strike Assault Marine list? Who other than Black Templars play with combined, massive squads of Marines running across the board to punch people in the face?

Log-- oh. There's no reason to lose those builds. The vast majority of the varient chapter codices are filler. Sure, the fluff and pictures might be nice, but they're by no means essential. The actual rules deviations are fairly minor, and could easily be fit in a smaller space. So you wouldn't have to change builds to become competitive.

My arguments are aimed at the suggestion that one or more Marine Codices should flat out be dropped, not against the consolidation of books. If it's done properly it could work, but I don't trust GW to do it properly. Furthermore, as I've already said, I don' see the various Chapters being properly represented by a few USRs in a unified Codex.

Ideally, I'd want things to have different costs in the various Marine Codices to make them take different units. For example, make the ranged weapons in Codex: Black Templars more expensive, but provide cheaper or better melee alternatives, pushing them toward melee-centric lists and removing the Razorspam-style army as the one unifying theme.

Here's a thought: if GW made the various variant Marine Codices more different from each other, would that be an acceptable fix or would the simple fact that they're Space Marines mean that they "have to go"?

It's mostly because a lot of the differences feel really forced, like they don't really need to be there. People say that they didn't require their own codexes because they weren't all that different from regular space marines, so GW went out of their way to make them different, even if those differences didn't really make sense. You could make a salamander's codex and throw in all the new units a special characters you wanted, and made it as unique and different from any space marines book there is, but the fact is they just shouldn't be. Salamanders are fine with the rules of the space marines codex, you just made your army in a fluffy way that represented the ideals of the salamanders well. It is easily achieved by a green paint job, and the appropriate units. Most say that you could do the same thing for most of the other space marine codexes. The only really unique ones that i see where the differences aren't forced are GK, Templars, and DA. But GK could probably be just lumped in with sisters for a codex: Inquisition without too much issue.

The way I see any Chapter/Legion/Clan/Craftworld/Regiment variant being done, is as a supplement at the end of the book saying something along the lines of, "If you want to run this army list, you have this FoC, and these special rules for x points.

If you want to run Blood Angels, Assault Marines become troops and Rhino Chassis gain fast for +15pts.
Black Templar? Tactical Marines get Bolt Pistol/CCW, increased squad size, and Furious Charge.
Dark Angels? Terminator Troops with different options.

It just goes on and on...
Then again, I don't play Marines and I may be over simplifying things....
...I do play Elysian Drop Troops however, and I can sum up most of the list like this:

Everything(almost) can deep strike and regroup when near an officer for +1pt per model. Valkyries become Dedicated Transports. And non-vet squad heavy weapons are replaced with Demo-Charges. There done. FW/GW should do more variant lists like this that are full of known units but with different options and in different FoC slots.

What I'd really like to see
Renegades and Heretics, covering cult lists and secessionist
A list pertaining to the Outsider and his motley horde of rag tag allies clumped together to try and beat the 'crons (If you can't beat the fluff just try and make the best of it :L)
An List combining the rest of the Imperial forces (Inquisition, SoB, Ad Mech etc.)

What I expect:
Nothing really, it's GW

Want: a New race with design features not using Cephalization (big word that means has a head, or isn't roughly human or animal shaped). Something using plants would be possible, although the orks are technically fungi. Or ameoboid creatures. Focusing on blast template weaponry, targeting uncommon statistics like say, initiative instead of toughness for damaging, and utilizing their larger creatures as vehicles for the smaller ones.

Expect: if it's not another 3+ armor save army, it will focus on one new aspect of battle, be it a new evasion statistic, uncommon turn structure gameplay, or fliers. Other army codex's that have not yet been FAQ'd to have access to reliable countermeasures to the new abilities will become near incapable of dealing with the new race on that playing field. This may be intentional to cause more sales, or an oversight on their part in forgetting just what armies people play outside of tournament structure.

What does a "Barghesi" look like?

Back on topic, I'd do all Codex adherrant SM as a single book and then all the ones who told Guilliman to feth off and wiped their s with his foolish Codex as different books. Then all the other books are left as they are. Templars are far too different to be included with UM, for example.

I'd rather they focused on existing codecies.

i wouldnt mind seeing individual IG regiment codices so tallarn cadia mordian etc with specialist units for each regiment

Crimson-King2120 wrote:i wouldnt mind seeing individual IG regiment codices so tallarn cadia mordian etc with specialist units for each regiment

If this became true the first (And only codex) should be Tanith 1st

A xenos book or a mercs book would be pretty darn sweet.

Since battles of 40k are rarely actually the size of a interstellar conflict, I could even see human space pirates working into a list there.

But really, I'm hoping it would pave the way for The Cabal to be fleshed out a little better.

A new alien or distant human dex would be dandy.

dæl wrote:In order of preference...

Ad Mech
Exodites
Demiurg/Squats

Didn't Daemons come out in 5th?

BT came out in 3rd. Tau came out with 4th. Demons came out in 5th, before that there was just one "Chaos" codex.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about another bug-like race? Remember the spider aliens from "Horus Rising"?

Grugknuckle wrote:

dæl wrote:In order of preference...

Ad Mech
Exodites
Demiurg/Squats

Didn't Daemons come out in 5th?

BT came out in 3rd. Tau came out with 4th. Demons came out in 5th, before that there was just one "Chaos" codex.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about another bug-like race? Remember the spider aliens from "Horus Rising"?

Tau came out in late 3rd and got a new dex in 4th, BT had a few pages in armageddon book in 3rd and a full dex in 4th and Deamons were part of the 3rd, 3.5 CSM dex and got there own in 4th, im still unsure why BT got there own dex to be honest it wasnt needed as we already had a "knight" themed codex with DA and it could have been expanded to allow most of the things BT dex had (but not the updated 4th BT codex) with the few pages armaeddon dex.

I agree with a few others on here, i would like to see a renagades/heretics/mercs dex, you could have everything from eldar, kroot, humans and some other minor races like the loaxatle (SP) or H'Rud, alongside rogue traders and some space marines (loyal or traitor, but that would depend on how you model them), it would be cool

Actually...

You know what would be WAY better than a new race?
How about some terrain that isn't imperial.

I wouldn't mind seeing more xenon's threats to kill either. In a perfect world Ad mec, and better individualism of the IG would be on top of this xenos edition. Also, I think that a true Mercenaries / Rogue Trader codex could be a fantastic addition, i'll explain why, but here's what I'm thinking first:

Mercs R/Ts:

Able to use the services of certain armies, much like a dark and less noble version of how the Inquisition can pull things together from various loyalist groups, RT's can acquire the services of virtually any race / faction, for a certain price. for balance, things like pairing a loyalist chapter with a CSM chapter either can't exist, or is made to cost a lot of points represnting that a loyalist chapter would never join a traitor one, but instead the CSM's have brought along a renegade splinter group of the chapter at a great expense.


Xeno's: Could be anything from arachnids covered in spikes, inspired by the Cyrx of Warmahordes, a sort of Lizardmen with guns race drawn from the fantasy setting, little green men, a slime race, or whatever else creativity can conjure.

The point is that these two codex's would pair well together because players could either assimilate what they have already into a RT codex, have their armies stand alone as it is, buy into the new xenos race exclusively, or buy into the xenos race and assimilate them into forces they may already have. Options. It's good to have them. So is sleep and food, which I am deprived of and my communication skills are suffering because of it.

Crimson-King2120 wrote:i wouldnt mind seeing individual IG regiment codices so tallarn cadia mordian etc with specialist units for each regiment

The problem with this is that the Guard fights as a diverse force made up of several regiments. Wars are never single regiments, they involve dozens, hundreds, or if the situation warrants it, potentially thousands of regiments. It is like having a Battlesuit codex for the Tau, yes Tau use battlesuits, but they don't simply wander off alone, they fight alongside other elements. Cadians don't do their own thing, they fight alongside other regiments. Honestly all the IG needs is a doctrine system.

The Crusader wrote:What does a "Barghesi" look like?

Back on topic, I'd do all Codex adherrant SM as a single book and then all the ones who told Guilliman to feth off and wiped their s with his foolish Codex as different books. Then all the other books are left as they are. Templars are far too different to be included with UM, for example.

Wiped their asses with the greatest collection of military wisdom ever and decided to fight like Doritos instead? it amuses me how many people consider being Codex chapters a bad thing. Must be Graham McNeill's terrible Ultramarines novels. Originally, being. "Codex Chapter" was supposed to be what made the Ultramarines the "greatest of all Space Marine chapters". It wasn't supposed to be a limiting factor. Just because the Black Templars and Space Wolves suffer too many casualties from their inferior combat strategies and cannot maintain Codex suggested formations because they have too many recruits and not enough Battle Brothers doesn't mean the Codex is bad.

Besides, the Blood Angels are a Codex Chapter. Their fans would be pretty sad if they lost their codex.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

The Crusader wrote:What does a "Barghesi" look like?

Back on topic, I'd do all Codex adherrant SM as a single book and then all the ones who told Guilliman to feth off and wiped their s with his foolish Codex as different books. Then all the other books are left as they are. Templars are far too different to be included with UM, for example.

Wiped their asses with the greatest collection of military wisdom ever and decided to fight like Doritos instead? it amuses me how many people consider being Codex chapters a bad thing. Must be Graham McNeill's terrible Ultramarines novels. Originally, being. "Codex Chapter" was supposed to be what made the Ultramarines the "greatest of all Space Marine chapters". It wasn't supposed to be a limiting factor. Just because the Black Templars and Space Wolves suffer too many casualties from their inferior combat strategies and cannot maintain Codex suggested formations because they have too many recruits and not enough Battle Brothers doesn't mean the Codex is bad.

Besides, the Blood Angels are a Codex Chapter. Their fans would be pretty sad if they lost their codex.

How to really tell when someones jealous that the BT could crump the Ultramarines 101

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

The Crusader wrote:What does a "Barghesi" look like?

Back on topic, I'd do all Codex adherrant SM as a single book and then all the ones who told Guilliman to feth off and wiped their s with his foolish Codex as different books. Then all the other books are left as they are. Templars are far too different to be included with UM, for example.

Wiped their asses with the greatest collection of military wisdom ever and decided to fight like Doritos instead? it amuses me how many people consider being Codex chapters a bad thing. Must be Graham McNeill's terrible Ultramarines novels. Originally, being. "Codex Chapter" was supposed to be what made the Ultramarines the "greatest of all Space Marine chapters". It wasn't supposed to be a limiting factor. Just because the Black Templars and Space Wolves suffer too many casualties from their inferior combat strategies and cannot maintain Codex suggested formations because they have too many recruits and not enough Battle Brothers doesn't mean the Codex is bad.

Besides, the Blood Angels are a Codex Chapter. Their fans would be pretty sad if they lost their codex.

How to really tell when someones jealous that the BT could crump the Ultramarines 101

QFT

You know some of GW has something against Marines fighting in a more reasonable/badass manner (Ex. Raptors, Exorcists, Raven Guard, Salamanders - Reasonable, BT, Carchadons, Space Wolves, Minotaurs - Badass) by those few Ultramarines worshipping writers who just HAVE to cap on every Chapter that isn't a Codex Chapter

Just because we are gigantic and enjoy confirming the kill with chainsaws the size of land raiders doesn't mean you have to get your panties in a bunch

Bring back squats.


Or just retcon the Tyranid background to now have a new allied race.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:My arguments are aimed at the suggestion that one or more Marine Codices should flat out be dropped, not against the consolidation of books. If it's done properly it could work, but I don't trust GW to do it properly.

Heh, well, there is that, yeah.

Furthermore, as I've already said, I don' see the various Chapters being properly represented by a few USRs in a unified Codex.

I'm not suggesting that a couple of thrown together USRs be used, rather I'm suggesting that the exisiting rules wouldn't actually need to take up a lot of space. So the rules wouldn't change.

Ideally, I'd want things to have different costs in the various Marine Codices to make them take different units. For example, make the ranged weapons in Codex: Black Templars more expensive, but provide cheaper or better melee alternatives, pushing them toward melee-centric lists and removing the Razorspam-style army as the one unifying theme.

Regardless of the relative merits or drawbacks of such a system (I've not really though about, so can't really comment), this is still something that could be achieved in just a few pages of differences in rules.

Here's a thought: if GW made the various variant Marine Codices more different from each other, would that be an acceptable fix or would the simple fact that they're Space Marines mean that they "have to go"?

I wouldn't really want to see them be that different. Space Marines are still Space Marines, after all. Believe me when I say that I have no beef with Marines when I suggest this system. I love Marines - always have done. But, for me, this system would prove far superior, as we'd see much more frequent updates for all of the unique chapters, and you could have even more loyalist unique chapters represented.

Anyway, that's enough from me on that. De-railing the thread as it is.