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**Tyfus**

That was my point, people are wish listing more heavy dakka and cheaper MEQ troops. If Grey Knights had either of those they would be broken good.

As it is now
Turn 1 let your opponent shoot at nothing on your board side.
Then drop your entire army on his board side, shoot and run.
Turn 2 Make a mockery of their psykers as deny the witch everything. Take some return fire and weather assaults.
Dominate your psyhic phase, crush whats left of his amry with your augmented troops
Repeat Turn 2 as needed.

Remember that, with luck, you could deepstrike close enough to control/deny all objectives turn 1

Sound like a Grey Knight movie, not a game against a good oponent.

Except you can Deepstrike your enitre army turn 1, before his SW Drop Pods arrive, eliminate what he has on the board, and table him round 1.

If you could turn 1 deepstrike an entire army with as much ranged heavy hitting power as SW it would just be broken.

I'm not shure i understand what you mean. Player going first can't table someone after playerturn 1, it's after gameturn 1. So the SW would get his drop pods in (half of them rounded up).

When two deep striking armies meet each other it's a huge advantage going second.

The SW player would for shure get half of his pods. The GK player would have to roll 3+ for each of his units.

I'm operating under the assumption that reserves for other armies came in starting on turn 2.

? We we're talking about the GK formation versus SW drop pods. Half the pods (rounded up) will always arrive in turn one. It the enemy don't have pods and are facing the GK formation, none good players will put anything in reserve.

**obsidiankatana**

Yeah, hate to burst that bubble, but you sort of can deep strike a SW army turn one. That's how drop pods work.

**Leth**

The thing is we cant do it on a army by army basis, 40k has plenty of rock paper scissors right now.

Look at what it can do against a majority of opponents instead of against one opponent cherry picked to be good or bad against.

**mrfantastical**

Khaine's Wrath wrote:
OK. My 10 cents.

Yeah, it seems GK have had a beating from the Nerf bat. But this seems to be the new theme for GW in 7th edition. And I kinda welcome it a little.

In 5th and 6th we saw some crazy OP builds and death stars. And it started to take the fun out of the game. There were some match ups that were auto win and auto lose. And people were almost encouraged to spam units to be competitive. This started to ruin 40K for me. So I welcome the toning down that GW have begun. And it's not like I'm unaffected. I've not long picked up the wolves Dex and am working on a list for 7th. It's very difficult. Because they took a touch of a pasting too (arguably not as hard as GK seem to have been hit) and now there seems less auto include options. And as such we are seeing many variations of lists.

But most importantly, don't measure the new codex against the old one, instead measure it against other seventh edition codex. Then you may start to realise you're not that bad an army. In fact you're still pretty powerful. Boo hoo you can't have paladins as troop choices... But apart from Deathwing no other army has TEQ troops choices. I understand you guys have lost a load of kit. But they're just bringing them in to line with 7th. Every other book will go the same way.

Yeah OK, so GKSS aren't amazing... But take 5 normal space Marines. Add 5 power weapons. Then add 5 storm Bolters. Now tell me the cost. And those guys don't generate WC, and they don't get S6 flamers. And they don't get to deap strike. So GKSS are actually pretty good value for points.

Losing grand strategy isn't that bad. People only ever used to make other options troops anyway, and in this edition everything is scoring. So arguably they had already lost their most powerful grand strategy.

I still think they're crazy powerful. Any other marine player would love deep striking, force weapon welding, assault weapon carrying power armoured bad guys for that price. Almost any other army would love TEQ as troops, or the ability to deepstrike turn one, or shunting MC's with invulnerable saves. And even without psychic pilot you still generate more warp charge than all but perhaps daemons.

I'm short, you're still very strong. And I'm hoping this means we will just see many different builds. It could be worse... You could have that new dust collected Njal sat on the shelf....

If you follow fantasy look what happened to that when it changed from 7th to 8th. GW actually balanced out the game system for the most part, and then balanced out every book. I hope this is the direction of 40K because fantasy is amazing.

**Leth**

Yea, I think the books in fantasy sound pretty good(other than the early ones) its just the core rules that are the problem(see magic).

I think 7th editions core rules are fantastic, it just needs to bring in line the codexes(which for the most part they have outside a few outliers)

**Super Newb**

Leth wrote:
Tyfus wrote:

I must admit im not that impressed by the formation.
- your're unit may not arrive, go 3+
- scatter
- interceptor
- shooting when arriving is mediocre
- sitting duck for 1 turn before you can charge.
- no objective secured

Mostly good alpha strike through deep strike armies, depends on good shooting the turn they arrive; like SW droppod armies. And some armies (like in BAO ) spam objetive secured. With 18 objective secured units around the table on objectives a lot of armies will have a hard time removing them.

7.ed is a game for good shooting units and fast good charging units.GK have nada exept one unit - the dreadknight.

There are multiple ways to get re-roll reserves
scatter - allied in servo skulls and honestly scatter is not that big of a deal if you plan well.
Shooting and run is huge - see eldar battle focus
Interceptor is the same as if you deep struck or not, they are going to get a shot at you one way or another, just when deep striking on turn one you are only getting shot once
No one charges before turn 2 or 3 usually anyway so one turn of getting shot is fine
OS only matters if they are alive to contest you, and you can just ally in OS if you want to(only required to take one troop)

Drop pods do this better. You don't worry about mishaps. You get to choose which units drops down on turn one. You get melta, plasma and combi weapons.

Now the GK formation is much better than regular DS, but pods still do it better.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
With that said I plan on running SW in pods with the GK DS formation. Not because I will deep strike but because I can take one Librarian, only one 5 man GKT squad and *two* Dreadknights. That would compliment the SW pods quite well.

**Kangodo**

Can we please start calling it the GK-Detachment?

Because the Formation is a 1900-point army where you are forced to take specific units.

**wuestenfux**

Kangodo wrote:
Can we please start calling it the GK-Detachment?

Because the Formation is a 1900-point army where you are forced to take specific units.

Are the upgrades given to the models fixed in the formation?

**WrentheFaceless**

So the smaller version of this detachment, is it not in the codex, is it in the WD only?

**Kangodo**

@Wuestenfux: No, the wargear is not set for them.

@WrentheFaceless: You have a Detachment, where you pick your own slots and you have a Formation where you have to take 1900 points of models (before upgrades).
The Formation also gives you benefits for the Psychic phase.
The Detachment has less mandatory troops and less optional FA/HS but allows for more Elites.

**ductvader**

The Grey Knights Brotherhood formation is

1 GM
1 Champion
1 Brother Captain
3 Strike Squads
3 Termie squads
2 interceptor squads
2 purgation squads
1 dreadknight
1 dreadnought

I could be a little off

it gives reroll warlord trait, acquire warp charges on a 3+ as long as the GM lives, and the nifty 1st turn deepstrike on a 3+ run and shoot

the Nemesis Strike Force is min 1hq, 1 troop with altered force org that gives the above rules sans warp charges on a 3+

**WrentheFaceless**

Kangodo wrote:
@Wuestenfux: No, the wargear is not set for them.

@WrentheFaceless: You have a Detachment, where you pick your own slots and you have a Formation where you have to take 1900 points of models (before upgrades).
The Formation also gives you benefits for the Psychic phase.
The Detachment has less mandatory troops and less optional FA/HS but allows for more Elites.

Yea thats the one I was talking about, the Detachment that doesnt have specific units you have to take.

Is that one in the Codex?

**ductvader**

Yes it is

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it only works on units contained within that detachment.

My friend was trying to force an extra SW pod down by throwing a GK character in it.

**Super Newb**

Ok whoops so it is the detachment I am talking about. Minimum is 1 hq and one troop. Can take two heavies and up to 4 elites. Forgot the limits on the other stuff. Anyway if using GK as an an additional force to another army, the detachment lets you take only one troop (the troop tax) to bring 2 DKs

**ductvader**

Super Newb wrote:
Ok whoops so it is the detachment I am talking about. Minimum is 1 hq and one troop. Can take two heavies and up to 4 elites. Forgot the limits on the other stuff. Anyway if using GK as an an additional force to another army, the detachment lets you take only one troop (the troop tax) to bring 2 DKs

Truth, I haven't used Dreadknights since they got sanctuary...people use that often?

**DogOfWar**

ductvader wrote:
Truth, I haven't used Dreadknights since they got sanctuary...people use that often?

Banishment and Hammerhand were largely useless (or extremely situational) for DKs in the previous codex. I used Force once or twice (only against T6+, multi-wound models), but for the most part my DKs just gave an extra Warp Charge.

Buffing the invulnerable to a 4++ is pretty big. Going from a 33% chance to a 50% chance to save against any wound, even if it does carry the risk of perils/failure, will definitely be in my playbook.

DoW

**Tyfus**

Apparent Assassin leak from bolter and chainsword:

Culexus Assassin:
Spoiler

wargear
Animus Speculum (18", s5 ap1 assault x. X = combined mastery level within 12" + you can add dice from your own pool that you generate from models outside of 12" or the d6 free ones)
Etherium (ALL shots and combat attacks are made at BS and WS 1 against a culexus) -
Psyk-out grenades (as codex GK)

Special Rules
Fear
Fearless
independant Operative (can not join a unit or be joined under any circumstance)
Infiltrate
Life Drain (6 to wound cause instant death)
LIghtning Reflexes (4+ invun)
Move through Cover
No Escape (-2 to look out sir)
Preferred Enemy (Psykers)
psychic abomination (Psykers suffer -3 ld, do not generate any warp charge dice and only channel on a 6+ not a 4+ when 'casting' with 12" of the Culexus)

Eversor Assassin:
Spoiler

Wargear
Melta Bombs
power Sword
Executioner Pistol- bolt pistol or needle round (4+ poison)
Neuro-gauntlet- melee, fleshbane, shred
Frenzon - 3d6 charge range, 3 bonus attacks on the charge
Sentinel Array - fires overwatch at full BS

Special Rules
bio-meltdown-when assassin dies, S5 blast up to d6 inches.
Fast shot-executioner pistols fires 4 times at same target, mixture of rounds though.
Fearless
Feel no pain-5+
Furious Charge
Independant operative
infiltrate
Lightning Reflexes
Move through Cover
No Escape

Callidus Assassin:
Spoiler

Wargear
Neural Shredder- template, wounds on 4+ ap2
Phase sword - to wound rolls of 6 cause phase wound, no invuln vs phase wounds
Poison blades-3+poison + rending

Special Rules
Fearless
Fleet
Hit and Run
Independant Operative
infiltrate
Lightning Reflexes
move through Cover
no Escape
Polymorphine - marbo, enemy only fire snap shots on arrival turn at assassin
Precision Strikes
reign of Confusion - reroll seize initiative, opponent suffers -3 on first reserve roll

Vindicare assassin:
Spoiler

Wargear:
Blind grenades
CCW
Exitus rifle _ shield breaker round - no invuln save allowed
_ turbo penetrator - class as strength 10 vs vehicles, D3 wounds vs non-vehicles _ Hellfire rounds - wound on 2+

Exitus Pistol as above but pistol
Spy Mask - ignores cover

Special Rules:
Deadshot - Precision shots 6+
Fearless
Independant Operative
Infiltrate
Lightning Reflexes
Move through Cover
No escape - Enemy characters suffer -2 to look out sir
Stealth

**Leth**

Dem some sexy assassin stats....

**Super Newb**

Assassins sound nice. Hope they cost less than before too. Points cost in game lol as we all know in real life the cost for gk/inq/assassins went through the roof lol.

Culexus could be very annoying to deal with with that anti-psykers power

**Anpu42**

I might have to pull out my Morbo for the Callidus Assassin

**WrentheFaceless**

Great googly moogly

BOLS also says the culexus assassin also nulifies blessings and maledictions within 12 inches as well

Seems the process of taking them out of the GK codex allowed them to make the assassins even better

**ductvader**

WrentheFaceless wrote:
Great googly moogly

Exalted

**Tannhauser42**

If those are correct, that means the Vindicare lost his ability to auto target whoever he wanted. That just became a near useless model for me. At least he might still be good against vehicles, which goes against the entire idea of a sniper.

**WrentheFaceless**

Tannhauser42 wrote:
If those are correct, that means the Vindicare lost his ability to auto target whoever he wanted. That just became a near useless model for me. At least he might still be good against vehicles, which goes against the entire idea of a sniper.

So he used to have precision shots at will and not just a 6+?

Never used him

Though Vindicare now looks like an option for long range anti tank for GKs.

**ductvader**

Vindicare choose targets at will and LoS had no effect.

**l0k1**

Yep still gonna use the vindicare, though the other assassins have become quite enticing too. Maybe I'll have the vindicare babysit my comms relay first turn until everything starts deep striking in.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Tannhauser42 wrote:
If those are correct, that means the Vindicare lost his ability to auto target whoever he wanted. That just became a near useless model for me. At least he might still be good against vehicles, which goes against the entire idea of a sniper.

Ignoring LoS completely was broken. -2 to LoS is still stupidly good while giving your opponent a slim chance to survive (must pass on a 6 for characters 4+ for IC).

**Tannhauser42**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Tannhauser42 wrote:
If those are correct, that means the Vindicare lost his ability to auto target whoever he wanted. That just became a near useless model for me. At least he might still be good against vehicles, which goes against the entire idea of a sniper.

That was broken. -2 to LoS is still stupidly good while giving your opponent a slim chance to survive (must pass on a 6 for characters 4+ for IC).

Did you completely miss that he now needs to roll a 6 to hit what he wants to hit? He is now completely useless as a sniper.

**DogOfWar**

Ignores cover is huge on the Vindicare, although losing Deadshot hurts a little.

But wow... the Callidus is back with a vengeance! OFF FROM THE SHELF WITH YOU!

DoW

**Anpu42**

Tannhauser42 wrote:
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Tannhauser42 wrote:
If those are correct, that means the Vindicare lost his ability to auto target whoever he wanted. That just became a near useless model for me. At least he might still be good against vehicles, which goes against the entire idea of a sniper.

That was broken. -2 to LoS is still stupidly good while giving your opponent a slim chance to survive (must pass on a 6 for characters 4+ for IC).

Did you completely miss that he now needs to roll a 6 to hit what he wants to hit? He is now completely useless as a sniper.

Yes, just as useless and any other sniper...