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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 17:50:50
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
Cozy cockpit of an Archer ARC-5S
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Before they became the Ultramarines they were known as the "War-Born" mostly, mainly because, as mentioned above, they recruited heavily from tribes and nations all across Terra, with a single thing they all had in common: That put up quite a fight before they joined the Imperium, thus taking away their fighting strength and putting it to a better use against the enemies of mankind.
They were also known then for mass assaults, properly cooperating with non-Astartes formations and that they excelled at adaptation and imitation, eager to learn from other Legions and improve on what they saw there.
And yeah, avenged that earlier campaign against the Psybrids, which came with a heavy cost in life, but it was deemed worth it.
Though nowhere near as scary as the Calth massacre itself, where in a single day well over 60% of the Ultramarine Legion was simply massacred.
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Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 18:17:12
Subject: Re:Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?
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@brook, where's all that info from if I may ask? I've given up on black library, and never heard of the "war-born". Also I thought the ultramarine losses were much lower than 60%, but it's been a while since I read the Calth book.
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LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13
I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 18:21:54
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Calculating Commissar
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As regards the upgrade kits, are we going to get that for every upgrade kit they release? They started doing it for the Isstvan III Legions, and I would be surprised, and a bit disappointed, if they stopped making any sort of Legion specific upgrade kit for the later Legions.
I think being annoyed at the upgrade kits for actual Legion specialist units, the IF units being the most obvious examples, is completely justified, as they are required if you want to field those units, but the aesthetic kits are entirely optional, and it is a trend that we have seen for over 10 Legions now, so I can't see it change any time soon, and it really isn't new. Automatically Appended Next Post: Theophony wrote:@brook, where's all that info from if I may ask? I've given up on black library, and never heard of the "war-born". Also I thought the ultramarine losses were much lower than 60%, but it's been a while since I read the Calth book.
I think this is information from Book 5 from FW. Nothing to do with Black Library really
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/01 18:22:35
ChargerIIC wrote:If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 18:23:57
Subject: Re:Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Thermo-Optical Hac Tao
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Theophony wrote:@brook, where's all that info from if I may ask? I've given up on black library, and never heard of the "war-born". Also I thought the ultramarine losses were much lower than 60%, but it's been a while since I read the Calth book.
It's all from Tempest.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 18:33:45
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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The New Miss Macross!
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Thanks for the UM info guys as it is much appreciated. The posted info definitely jives with the later great crusade and post heresy UM.
@Theophony: They're getting it from the new HH book V Tempest. In the HH books, the legion info is split up into two general parts (at least in the older books). The first part is all fluff including the pre-primarch terran history of the legion (which is what I asked about and they're posting) and then some Great Crusade battle stories that showcase each legion's quirks. It should eventually make its way to the online encyclopedias/wikis. Reading those tidbits of fluff on the early early legions is one of my favorite things about the HH.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 18:37:22
Subject: Re:Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
Cozy cockpit of an Archer ARC-5S
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Theophony wrote:@brook, where's all that info from if I may ask? I've given up on black library, and never heard of the "war-born". Also I thought the ultramarine losses were much lower than 60%, but it's been a while since I read the Calth book.
It's all from Tempest.
As for the Ultramarine casualties: from what I've gathered of the 185,923 Ultramarines present at the time, 119,422 were killed that day, or roughly 64%.
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Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 18:42:02
Subject: Re:Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Ancient Chaos Terminator
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BrookM wrote: Theophony wrote:@brook, where's all that info from if I may ask? I've given up on black library, and never heard of the "war-born". Also I thought the ultramarine losses were much lower than 60%, but it's been a while since I read the Calth book.
It's all from Tempest.
As for the Ultramarine casualties: from what I've gathered of the 185,923 Ultramarines present at the time, 119,422 were killed that day, or roughly 64%.
Jeez that was alot, what was the word bearers count for the dead? I know they used alot of cultists, deamons (greater and lesser) and deamon engines in their attack as well, though I am curious how many astartes the Word Bearers lost.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 19:02:56
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
Cozy cockpit of an Archer ARC-5S
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The Word Bearer casualties are harder to pinpoint, though I haven't gotten to their chapter yet. It's not even known just great a presence the Word Bearers had at Calth due to a massive false flag operation, making their numbers appear greater than they actually were, as most of their Legion was all over the system causing as much damage as possible.
It was a one-sided slaughter though, aside from all those Ultramarines, there are untold numbers of Militia and Auxilia Cohorts that were wiped out, an entire Knightly Order (500+ suits of armour) and an entire Titan Legion were also exterminated.
No single unit was given the spotlight over any other, so I think the babies can shut up now with their worries about this book being an extended advertisement for the Warlord titan.
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Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 19:51:35
Subject: Re:Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Calculating Commissar
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BrookM wrote: Theophony wrote:@brook, where's all that info from if I may ask? I've given up on black library, and never heard of the "war-born". Also I thought the ultramarine losses were much lower than 60%, but it's been a while since I read the Calth book.
It's all from Tempest. As for the Ultramarine casualties: from what I've gathered of the 185,923 Ultramarines present at the time, 119,422 were killed that day, or roughly 64%. It has numbers that exact for the Ultramarine forces? I thought the Ultramarines had something along the lines of 250,000 Marines? Or is it that much less were present on Calth for the battle? That is significantly more precise than the background for the other Legions so far, which have been rough estimates, although It does fit the background of the Ultramarines when I think about it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/02 00:42:17
ChargerIIC wrote:If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 20:01:46
Subject: Re:Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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Rippy wrote: BrookM wrote: Theophony wrote:@brook, where's all that info from if I may ask? I've given up on black library, and never heard of the "war-born". Also I thought the ultramarine losses were much lower than 60%, but it's been a while since I read the Calth book.
It's all from Tempest.
As for the Ultramarine casualties: from what I've gathered of the 185,923 Ultramarines present at the time, 119,422 were killed that day, or roughly 64%.
Jeez that was alot, what was the word bearers count for the dead? I know they used alot of cultists, deamons (greater and lesser) and deamon engines in their attack as well, though I am curious how many astartes the Word Bearers lost.
In "Betrayer" Argel Tal claims that everyone sent to Calth was expected to die horribly so they could purge their legion of "problematic elements"
So presumably a lot of dead word bearers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 20:10:03
Subject: Re:Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
Cozy cockpit of an Archer ARC-5S
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Haighus wrote:It has numbers that exact for the Ultramarine forces? T I thought the Ultramarines had something along the lines of 250,000 Marines? Or is it that much less were present on Calth for the battle?hat is significantly more precise than the background for the other Legions so far, which have been rough estimates, although It does fit the background of the Ultramarines when I think about it.
Some Chapters of the Legion were not present due to other duties or because they were needed elsewhere. The bulk was deployed on Calth however.
Also, this is the Ultramarines we're talking about, if there's one Legion that will keep accurate records of something, it will be them.
Bronzefists42 wrote:In "Betrayer" Argel Tal claims that everyone sent to Calth was expected to die horribly so they could purge their legion of "problematic elements"
So presumably a lot of dead word bearers.
Indeed, though they mostly sent in the units that were deemed too unstable (mentally or due to the imperfect fusion between Astartes and daemon), lacking in control or too consumed by what happened on Monarchia. Lorgar himself saw this as an excellent opportunity to purge his Legion of these elements.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/01 20:10:46
Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 20:12:14
Subject: Re:Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Thermo-Optical Hac Tao
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Haighus wrote: BrookM wrote: Theophony wrote:@brook, where's all that info from if I may ask? I've given up on black library, and never heard of the "war-born". Also I thought the ultramarine losses were much lower than 60%, but it's been a while since I read the Calth book.
It's all from Tempest.
As for the Ultramarine casualties: from what I've gathered of the 185,923 Ultramarines present at the time, 119,422 were killed that day, or roughly 64%.
It has numbers that exact for the Ultramarine forces? T I thought the Ultramarines had something along the lines of 250,000 Marines? Or is it that much less were present on Calth for the battle?hat is significantly more precise than the background for the other Legions so far, which have been rough estimates, although It does fit the background of the Ultramarines when I think about it.
Yeah the UM had around 250,000 marines but they weren't all on Calth. I can't remember the actual figures in the book but I'm guessing they're the ones BrookM quoted. It is very precise! But yeah it is fitting for the UM.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 20:14:52
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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Came in looking to find Forge World rumors and pictures... Instead got lessons in the Horus Heresy about the Ultramarines and Word Bearers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 20:19:30
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
Cozy cockpit of an Archer ARC-5S
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The quality of the fluff sections of these books is quite astounding and a nice summarized version of the many, many novels they're putting out.
Perhaps even better (or worse if you ask the babies), the fourth book touched upon a section of the galaxy not yet featured (as far as I know) in the novels, plus it nicely gave us a good look at the Solar Auxilia, another thing BL won't write about.
I've never been able to read through KNOW. NO. FEAR. but thanks to Tempest I now know what happened and it didn't take me slogging through a novel talking about BALLS OF ADAMANTIUM all the time. Automatically Appended Next Post: ImAGeek wrote:Yeah the UM had around 250,000 marines but they weren't all on Calth. I can't remember the actual figures in the book but I'm guessing they're the ones BrookM quoted. It is very precise! But yeah it is fitting for the UM.
They also suffered quite a few casualties during the campaign to wipe out the Psybrids, or at least, they lost a large number of the original Terran veterans during that one.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/01 20:20:26
Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 20:21:19
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Alpharius wrote:That hydra 'detail' on the chest piece?
That could use some more...actual detail.
I know, it looks like a freaking tapeworm. Apparently AL is not into food preparation hygiene.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 20:25:35
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Thermo-Optical Hac Tao
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BrookM wrote:The quality of the fluff sections of these books is quite astounding and a nice summarized version of the many, many novels they're putting out.
Perhaps even better (or worse if you ask the babies), the fourth book touched upon a section of the galaxy not yet featured (as far as I know) in the novels, plus it nicely gave us a good look at the Solar Auxilia, another thing BL won't write about.
I've never been able to read through KNOW. NO. FEAR. but thanks to Tempest I now know what happened and it didn't take me slogging through a novel talking about BALLS OF ADAMANTIUM all the time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ImAGeek wrote:Yeah the UM had around 250,000 marines but they weren't all on Calth. I can't remember the actual figures in the book but I'm guessing they're the ones BrookM quoted. It is very precise! But yeah it is fitting for the UM.
They also suffered quite a few casualties during the campaign to wipe out the Psybrids, or at least, they lost a large number of the original Terran veterans during that one.
The fluff in the big books is excellent. I really like KNF though. Was that campaign just before Calth then? I thought they had 250,000 marines around Calth, and that campaign was earlier and they'd rebuilt to 250,000 afterwards. I haven't read the fluff at the front yet, only the UM section.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 20:33:52
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
Cozy cockpit of an Archer ARC-5S
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The Legion has a strength of about 250,000 that they've built up over the last two years, though not all Chapters were present at Calth. Some Chapters were still away helping out with the Crusade, or were too far away to reach the mustering in time, while others were tasked with maintaining a watch over select worlds of the Five Hundred.
Interestingly enough, it is mentioned that these Chapters that did not partake in the Calth campaign would forever be seen as outsiders by the rest of the Legion, for they weren't there when it happened and even their Primarch treated them differently for some reason. As a result these Chapters were amongst the first to be broken away from the Legion and turned into the modern Chapters we know today.
edit.
Also, these Chapters were seen as "true" Ultramarine Chapters, because they weren't changed by what happened on Calth, which is a nice callback to the Space Marine codex where some Chapters would engage in tiny penis measuring contests over who was more true to something than the other Chapters.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/01 20:35:13
Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 20:34:12
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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BrookM wrote:The quality of the fluff sections of these books is quite astounding and a nice summarized version of the many, many novels they're putting out.
Perhaps even better (or worse if you ask the babies), the fourth book touched upon a section of the galaxy not yet featured (as far as I know) in the novels, plus it nicely gave us a good look at the Solar Auxilia, another thing BL won't write about.
I've never been able to read through KNOW. NO. FEAR. but thanks to Tempest I now know what happened and it didn't take me slogging through a novel talking about BALLS OF ADAMANTIUM all the time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ImAGeek wrote:Yeah the UM had around 250,000 marines but they weren't all on Calth. I can't remember the actual figures in the book but I'm guessing they're the ones BrookM quoted. It is very precise! But yeah it is fitting for the UM.
They also suffered quite a few casualties during the campaign to wipe out the Psybrids, or at least, they lost a large number of the original Terran veterans during that one.
Oh no...The Attack of Capslock'd Titles...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 20:57:16
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Thermo-Optical Hac Tao
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BrookM wrote:The Legion has a strength of about 250,000 that they've built up over the last two years, though not all Chapters were present at Calth. Some Chapters were still away helping out with the Crusade, or were too far away to reach the mustering in time, while others were tasked with maintaining a watch over select worlds of the Five Hundred.
Interestingly enough, it is mentioned that these Chapters that did not partake in the Calth campaign would forever be seen as outsiders by the rest of the Legion, for they weren't there when it happened and even their Primarch treated them differently for some reason. As a result these Chapters were amongst the first to be broken away from the Legion and turned into the modern Chapters we know today.
edit.
Also, these Chapters were seen as "true" Ultramarine Chapters, because they weren't changed by what happened on Calth, which is a nice callback to the Space Marine codex where some Chapters would engage in tiny penis measuring contests over who was more true to something than the other Chapters. 
Really? I'd have thought if there was a Primarch who wouldn't treat his sons differently for something like that, it would be Guilliman. I guess something like that would change you though. Don't the Raven Guard that stayed at Deliverance and weren't at Istvaan get treated differently too?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 21:08:28
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
Cozy cockpit of an Archer ARC-5S
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Could very well be the case. Though this may more be a case of those Chapters being "fortunate" enough in missing out on something so cataclysmic and traumatizing, that they are resented for it. Plus I'm sure those Chapters also carry varying degrees of guilt with them as well.
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Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 22:03:51
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Calth was a major historic event, the 5th Capital world of Ultramar, which was so huge that the other 4 had their own governing Astartes champion called a Tetrarch who was somewhat akin to a Chapter Champion in relation to modern times. Most of the Legion turned up for the event, but obviously some had duties and wars to fight, planets to garrison.
To compare it to modern terms, it would be like the opening of a second White House or Buckingham Palace. Most of the important people would turn up but some still have to run businesses or do other vital things.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/01 22:08:41
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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The New Miss Macross!
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BrookM wrote:Interestingly enough, it is mentioned that these Chapters that did not partake in the Calth campaign would forever be seen as outsiders by the rest of the Legion, for they weren't there when it happened and even their Primarch treated them differently for some reason. As a result these Chapters were amongst the first to be broken away from the Legion and turned into the modern Chapters we know today.
edit.
Also, these Chapters were seen as "true" Ultramarine Chapters, because they weren't changed by what happened on Calth, which is a nice callback to the Space Marine codex where some Chapters would engage in tiny penis measuring contests over who was more true to something than the other Chapters. 
Is that also in tempest or one of the novels that I haven't kept up with? Automatically Appended Next Post: Deadshot wrote:Calth was a major historic event, the 5th Capital world of Ultramar, which was so huge that the other 4 had their own governing Astartes champion called a Tetrarch who was somewhat akin to a Chapter Champion in relation to modern times. Most of the Legion turned up for the event, but obviously some had duties and wars to fight, planets to garrison.
To compare it to modern terms, it would be like the opening of a second White House or Buckingham Palace. Most of the important people would turn up but some still have to run businesses or do other vital things.
Isn't it something like 500 worlds in the HH compared with the two dozen in 40k?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/01 22:10:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/02 00:48:25
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Calculating Commissar
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ImAGeek wrote: I guess something like that would change you though. Don't the Raven Guard that stayed at Deliverance and weren't at Istvaan get treated differently too?
Well, they ended up saving the remainder of the Legion by coming and picking them up from Isstvan 5 just prior to their destruction, so I'm not sure how they would be viewed. Haven't read the relevant BL books though, so can't say for sure.
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ChargerIIC wrote:If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/02 00:51:58
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Since we're on a bit of a lore kick in here:
I know that there were the purges of loyalists on Istvann III and the Word Bearers sent those they deemed expendable as the vanguard on Calth.
Did the other Traitor Legions have any large scale cullings of Loyalist holdouts?
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BlaxicanX wrote:A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/02 01:21:59
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Eldarain wrote:Since we're on a bit of a lore kick in here:
I know that there were the purges of loyalists on Istvann III and the Word Bearers sent those they deemed expendable as the vanguard on Calth.
Did the other Traitor Legions have any large scale cullings of Loyalist holdouts?
They most likely did just not all of them are famous as Isstvan III.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/02 01:34:57
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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[DCM]
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A lot of them accomplished just that at the various Isstvans!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/02 04:11:28
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Thermo-Optical Hac Tao
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Haighus wrote: ImAGeek wrote: I guess something like that would change you though. Don't the Raven Guard that stayed at Deliverance and weren't at Istvaan get treated differently too?
Well, they ended up saving the remainder of the Legion by coming and picking them up from Isstvan 5 just prior to their destruction, so I'm not sure how they would be viewed. Haven't read the relevant BL books though, so can't say for sure.
They did, but they weren't actually on the planet apart from that one Thunderhawk. There's definitely some friction that arises. It's in Deliverance Lost (or the quarter of it I've ever managed to read...)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/02 06:46:53
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
Cozy cockpit of an Archer ARC-5S
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Deadshot wrote:Calth was a major historic event, the 5th Capital world of Ultramar, which was so huge that the other 4 had their own governing Astartes champion called a Tetrarch who was somewhat akin to a Chapter Champion in relation to modern times. Most of the Legion turned up for the event, but obviously some had duties and wars to fight, planets to garrison.
To compare it to modern terms, it would be like the opening of a second White House or Buckingham Palace. Most of the important people would turn up but some still have to run businesses or do other vital things.
I wouldn't compare Calth to those places, rather it was a strategically placed world that was turned into a planet-wide mustering field and storage facility large enough to accommodate everything needed for the upcoming operation against the supposed Ork threat looming nearby.
warboss wrote:Is that also in tempest or one of the novels that I haven't kept up with?
Isn't it something like 500 worlds in the HH compared with the two dozen in 40k?
This is indeed also from Tempest. The book excels at painting a clear picture without mincing words about it.
And yes, the Ultramarine empire was at one point five hundred worlds strong, though my guess is a lot of these worlds would be ruined in the aftermath of Calth, plus post-Heresy, with the Legions being replaced by Chapters, the Ultramarines no longer had the proper means to maintain such a large empire all by their selves.
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Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/02 07:29:26
Subject: Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 50 Bulletin #62
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Jealous that Horus is Warmaster
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Who else apart from me thinks that the 30k ultras look sooooo much better than their 40k counterparts?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/06/02 09:39:33
Subject: Re:Latest Forge World news and rumour thread : page 46 Bulletin #61
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Hacking Proxy Mk.1
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That might just be the worst marine face I have ever seen.
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Fafnir wrote:Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that. |
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