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To be honest, that's the kind of comment that post deserved.

Zweischneid - often you make really sensible, well thought out posts. But in the last couple of pages you sound like someone who not only fell out of bed the wrong side (then found his left slipper was in front of his right foot, and visa-versa) but also then got downstairs and discovered the coffee pot was empty!

Zweischneid: everyone else on here is pretty okay with the time tables, and the amount of stuff we're getting before everyone else. Is it possible you just misunderstood one small thing and got a little upset over an imagined slight? We knew when they were coming to us, they've pushed stuff forward before what was even promised, and we're getting stuff outside of the basic boxed set before everybody else who didn't kickstart. I think you must have misunderstood something further back and are upset over nothing really. Try to cheer up-from the sounds of it, Mantic is shipping to Australia first, followed by North America, THEN Europe, to ensure we all get our product before Christmas. Most OTHER companies would post to their own country first. Does that really sound like a bunch of bad-guys?

updated shipping information to not look like a Re-Re who can't read flags.

May not have gotten it faster, but I pretty damned sure I am getting it cheaper!

The funny thing is we were not promised to get it first, just before Christmas. being able to get it to retailers who already get regular shipments easier than hundreds of random people doesn't strike me as irresponsible or not fulfilling the KS.

All we were promised was by Christmas and that seems to be being delivered on.

I am excited about stores getting it... Means people are seeing it before I already show up with multiple teams ready to play. Some of the Bloodbowl people in the area have already been clued in to Dreadball without KS exposure or anything.

Be as patient as the Teraton and as cunning as the guy who sells you a 50 credit t-shirt that wears out in a week.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Zweischneid: everyone else on here is pretty okay with the time tables, and the amount of stuff we're getting before everyone else. Is it possible you just misunderstood one small thing and got a little upset over an imagined slight? We knew when they were coming to us, they've pushed stuff forward before what was even promised, and we're getting stuff outside of the basic boxed set before everybody else who didn't kickstart. I think you must have misunderstood something further back and are upset over nothing really. Try to cheer up-from the sounds of it, Mantic is shipping to your country first, followed by mine, THEN Europe, to ensure we all get our product before Christmas. Most OTHER companies would post to their own country first. Does that really sound like a bunch of bad-guys?

Basically, he's sniping because he's bored and because Mantic used Kickstarter in the incorrect way (aka not in a way that Zwei considers is the proper, "in the spirit" way that Kickstarter should run their business.) What with DB already being deep into production at the time. it was a pre-order for the boxed game. But you know, Kickstarter is a business, and crowdfunding sorts itself out, to a large extent.

Might be time to stop tilting at that particular windmill, Don Quixote. You're starting to come across a bit like Kroothawk in your Mantic sniping. By all means, call them out when they do something wrong, but shipping December orders in December isn't exactly the worst thing they could have done...

^ It isn't just Zwei, there's been a ton of anger in the kickstarter comments about what really isn't all that much of a big deal. It's more of a case of people feeling psychologically betrayed as a result of their own mental constructs and expectations, even if those don't align up with what the Kickstarter actually promised (delivery in December).

Basically speaking - This Monday was the first sightings of stores having the product on the shelves.

And now, today (Wednesday) - A bunch of UK people received their Striker packages this morning!

So yeah, anyone in the UK, keep an eye out over the next 2-5 days, they're being delivered by courier which means that it'll arrive pretty damned fast and won't be affected by the usual Royal Snail Xmas delays.

I've worked in warehouse packing before, and judging by their staffing levels they should be able to get 300 or so boxes packed and shipped every day (15 per person per hour with 5 people working), so give it 1-2 weeks for it all to be dispatched.

I was at my FLGS last night and they had a variatiy of Dreadball stuff out for sale. I have to admit I am a bit disapointed that I didn't get my stuff first. Is it a deal breaker for me? Ultimatly it isn't, but it did leave a bad taste in my mouth and it might make me think twice about backing the next Mantic Kickstarter.

Intalectually I can see why Mantic shipped to stores when they did. However in the future if they plan on going the kickstarter route this may come back to haunt them.

 scarletsquig wrote:
It's more of a case of people feeling psychologically betrayed as a result of their own mental constructs and expectations...

I don't do quote sigs, but if I did!

 scarletsquig wrote:

And now, today (Wednesday) - A bunch of UK people received their Striker packages this morning!
quote]

I thought Mantic said it was going to ship to the UK last. So are all the other orders already shipped?

/shrug

It's not so much about my mental constructs and expectations, but my problems predicting the incoherent judgments on this board.

Seeing the flame-rage that brought down Blue Table for a perceived (unproven) "abuse of Kickstarter-philosophy" and the general "shrug-it's-the-way-it-is" acceptance of Mantic's (far more obvious) adoption of Kickstarter-as-a-store-plus-hype-tool, I feel like I am always on the wrong side of the curve.

So yeah, I was angry early in this discussion here when it was leaked that shops could pre-order DreadBall, including "stretch-goals" before the Kickstarter went live.

I was told "it's the way it is and the crowd-will-sort-it". Don't be too "idealistic" about Kickstarter.

So I accepted that and took that argument to the Blue Table discussion, only to be shouted down by the enraged crowed of "OMGG!!! Blue Table is Violating the sacred Kickstarter-Creed" by opening a second store-front. Hell, when I mirrored arguments brought against me in the DreadBall discussion in the Blue Table topic, I was suddenly accused of being paid by BTP to hype it up. How else could I defend a company going so blatantly against the entrepreneurial Shangri-La of Kickstarter?

Then I come back here and everyone is once again perfectly fine with a second store front if it's done by Mantic.

So yes, I guess, I am just lost there.

Moral standards seem to go every which way on Dakka on this issue. I'd be fine with either one. But it should be only one standard... or at least that's what I've been taught .

Mantic have always clearly stated right from day 1 that the Kickstarter was to improve the game, not to fund it. It was already quite clearly sculpted and in production before the KS launched and the stretch goals have matched that. They even had the metal ref casted up, which probably would have been the freebie metal included with the retail box (instead of wildcard) if the KS didn't exist. They're now selling off their spare castings of the metal ref at events because they don't need them anymore.

I can't believe we're going over this again, after the 10-page debate on this exact same topic at the start of the thread.

Mantic have also clearly stated in multiple KS comments themselves that people might see it on the store shelves before they got their packages. They stated this in advance too, and stated the reason for it was because they wanted to get a bunch of MVPs in the shipment.

They actually asked backers what they'd prefer, a week earlier delivery or a bunch of extra MVPs in the box, and the bulk of people wanted the bunch of extra unreleased MVPs. I'm not sure how it's even possible to bring up "bad communication" as a problem with the company at this point. In fact, I sometimes saw complaints on the KS page that Mantic were communicating too much and people didn't want the inbox spam.

It wasn't "leaked" as you're stating, it was openly posted publically by Mantic and discussed in advance, not some kind of conspiracy coverup scenario where the first anyone heard of it was the boxes being seen on store shelves. If you haven't been reading the KS updates then this would be the first you've heard of it, but there's nothing Mantic can do about that.

I haven't read the BTP thread or paid much attention to it but from what I've heard it failed due to feeling like the KS wasn't actually funding anything or offering a discount/ really good deal.*

I'm not sure how that applies to this KS.

I mean yes, the game itself was funded already, but that $700k isn't just being spent on hookers and blow while Mantic wheels out the entire set of season 2 and Ultimate sculpts that they had sitting in their warehouse for the past 3 months.
It is being spent on producing the models while offering a huge return-on-investment for backers, both in terms of getting everything at a 70% discount and in terms of getting extremely well-in-advance-shipping on everything that isn't the basic game box.

I'm kinda wondering if people's anger with Kickstarter in general (pretty much every single wargaming KS other than Mantic and Impact! are missing their deadlines) is starting to boil over into attacking other companies on KS that haven't done anything wrong.

Wow, for some reason, I thought you lived in Australia-so I guess my last sentence to you makes no sense. I think I'll edit that out later to not make myself look like an idiot.

Your earlier post makes more sense with this information, but try not to cater to gamers with your posts: we're a fickle (childish) lot. Voice your own opinion, don't just say what you think we want to hear.

I didn't even go on the Blue Table kickstarter, so I have no ideas of the issues it faced, but I didn't feel that Mantic lied about anything, and was quite surprised by your statements, as they didn't make much sense to me: we're getting our big shipments when promised, we're getting a bunch of MVPs early, and we were told that we'll receive our second group of additional teams and further MVPs before other stores get them. Now, that was an agreement they made, and if stores receive the next batch of models before we do, then they have broken a promise to us and deserve a finger-wagging at the very least. They never said anything about when the first batch was hitting stores, but they were trying to market this game to be ready for Christmas-the earlier they hit shelves, the better.

Blue Table also always stated very clearly what they wanted to do.

I don't think transparency is the issue here.

Okay, now you've got me interested in reading the BTP thread, it sounds like I might have actually been in the position of backing you up there if I had any interest in it. :p

But surely you can accept that your annoyance over anything that happened with the BTP thread doesn't really have anything to do with this thread, as the 2 Kickstarters don't really bear any resemblance to each other whatsoever, and it probably isn't even the same posters in the 2 different threads, for the most part?

 scarletsquig wrote:
Okay, now you've got me interested in reading the BTP thread. :p

But surely you can accept that your annoyance over anything that happened with the BTP thread doesn't really have anything to do with this thread, as the 2 Kickstarters don't really bear any resemblance to each other whatsoever, and it probably isn't even the same posters in the 2 different threads, for the most part?

With the exception of Alpharius having a hard time with me, no, probably not

 scarletsquig wrote:
In fact, I sometimes saw complaints on the KS page that Mantic were communicating too much and people didn't want the inbox spam.

well, I _did_ just get update #100.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Moral standards seem to go every which way on Dakka on this issue. I'd be fine with either one. But it should be only one standard... or at least that's what I've been taught .

That might be your problem right there.

And I think I'm pretty much on the record as saying I really don't care what's on Kickstarter or any other 'crowd funding' site - the success or failure (and thereby the 'worthiness'?) of any project will be obvious by the time the campaign is underway.

Love it!

The difference between Mantic and BTP was more that Mantic was offering you a product that could be enhanced into different production materials, more options, and other enhancements that wouldn't have been possible. I think a lot of the backlash towards BTP was they wanted to have the money to improve the speed of their service, not to change the final product in any way. Did it deserve the level of vitriol it got? Probably not. Am I surprised they didn't get funded? Not in the slightest, and I would say "working as intended".

People tend to get far too worked up about things that don't actually impact them. BTP made an offering, and you're free to dislike the idea and ignore it (I did). That some people feel the need to go in and bad-mouth the idea or try to have shut down because it "breaks the rules" of a fairly capitalist site really just tells me those are people not worth paying attention to in the future. While I wasn't impressed with BTP's proposal, not every product in the known world has to cater to me to be worthwhile. Some people just don't get that I guess...

Right - before this one wanders too far afield, everyone should feel free to start some sort of generic Kickstarter thread in say, Dakka Discussions and leave this on to DB and On Topic.

Thanks!

 scarletsquig wrote:
^ It isn't just Zwei, there's been a ton of anger in the kickstarter comments..

Yeah, I try not to bother with KS (or IGG) "comments" because they're often just a cesspool of stupid and whining, and I don't have the patience to trawl through them to find the relevant bits. It's why campaigns that don't send out comments to backers via email and instead answer important questions in the comments threads particularly annoy me.

That's one of the good things about the Breadbowl and KOW kickstarters (and several others) - regular updates to my email, so I don't feel like I'm (probably or definitely) missing out on important information by not trawling specific forums, reams of comments pages and all the rest. Anything important comes to my email, and I can certainly respect and appreciate that.

Breadbowl Scipio? Is someone using autocorrect perchance?

 scarletsquig wrote:

So yeah, anyone in the UK, keep an eye out over the next 2-5 days, they're being delivered by courier which means that it'll arrive pretty damned fast and won't be affected by the usual Royal Snail Xmas delays.

God damn it, I hate courier deliveries. Any idea what companies are being used? If I'm going to have to drive a 40 mile round trip, I'm going to be rather brassed off.

i really dont get what people see in many of these kickstarters ,in my experience these games get quite boring after all but then again i will happily be proven wrong

 RonanSAS wrote:
I really don't get what people see in many of these kickstarters, in my experience these games get quite boring after all, but then again I will happily be proven wrong.

Well with Dreadball and Sedition wars I am buying mostly for the models themselves so while I am looking forward to playing them quite a lot, it is not the main reason why I pledged. A card game for example would not have gotten my money as there are no shiny plastics to accompany them!

The game also looks to be very well thought out and offers quite a bit of variety even more so than say, Space Hulk which has a specific set of missions an that is it. (Unless you make your own missions which often end up being biased to one side). All the different teams and MVP's should help spice the game up quite well I think.

Edit: Sorry, had to correct your grammar!

 RonanSAS wrote:
i really dont get what people see in many of these kickstarters ,in my experience these games get quite boring after all but then again i will happily be proven wrong

Game systems come and go, good minis are good minis regardless how you slice it. Something mini games have over generic board games and card games. Even if the gameplay becomes stale, you still have the minis which are great to paint, display and often use in other games.

Some successful KS don't even have a game, just Minis! This one happened to have both a game and minis. And when you boil it down, if Dreadball was an unplayable flop or a bore, all of these figures roll directly into 'space blood bowl' which has a large indy community and is still a seasonal favorite with lots of game clubs. Some games are fun to take out once a year, play for 6-8 weeks, have a winner then go back to our regularly scheduled game.

I am really looking forward to Mantic's 'organized play' for Dreadball. I hope they can work out a US tourney or league system. I would enjoy to go to Adepticon or something for a full day tourney so I hope the rules are really balanced and becomes a good source of competitive play.

 RonanSAS wrote:
i really dont get what people see in many of these kickstarters ,in my experience these games get quite boring after all but then again i will happily be proven wrong

Triple Quote time!

I have been playing Bloodbowl in various incarnations for the past 8 years and plan to continue to do so for quite a few more. I see it as a game similar to Dreadball in that there are teams and a goal and you compete against others.

Depending on how Mantic supports the game and how much people can get behind it I wouldnt be surprised to see it continue for quit some time.

 Commander Cain wrote:
Breadbowl Scipio? Is someone using autocorrect perchance?

Heh. Just muscle memory combined with a rushed post before leaving for work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RonanSAS wrote:
i really dont get what people see in many of these kickstarters ,in my experience these games get quite boring after all but then again i will happily be proven wrong

Yep, the guys who talked about how good models are a key selling point pretty much speak for me as well. Additionally, I have quite a few games in my collection, so rotation keeps them interesting for my wife, friends and I. If I were to play nothing but Dreadball (or Breadbowl) then I'm sure I would eventually get bored...

I wish I'd pledged for a copy of Breadbowl. Sounds like a nice change of pace.

Got my DB in the post this morning, just having a look through it now! Seems rather nice, definitely an improvement in production quality/layout over the previous boxed games and the rulebook seems suitably meaty.

I've also noticed that the ref is included in the standard box, don't know if that was the plan all along?

I wish I still lived in England so I could get my copy sooner!