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This is new, some more concrete info about the starter box (assuming its true, sprinkle with NACL as usual);


http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/02/wfb-9th-starter-box-minis.html



So if that's true, that raises some questions.


For instance the bad guys side is Chaos and Daemons ; okay a sense making combination that i think any of use could agree that, if they allow army mixing, is a logical combo.


Check out the good guys. Contains minis from empire, elves, possibly dwarf ranges ?


Interesting, and opens up a lot of questions. Does this sorta remind anyone else of Unbound in 40k ?

Isn't that standard now in WHFB since the End Times started?

Uh... pretty generic setup?

Chaos-Demons-evildoers on one side

Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits and the like on the other side

Add neutral factions as desired:

* druids dryads treefolk that care only about nature
* orks-ogres-trolls-lizzardmen (want to live in isolation, might be evil, depending on setting)
* undead (might be evil, depending on the setting)
* skaven-tyranids-swamp monsters (not strictly evil, but too different in their views to live in peace with the others)

Ta Korinov.

 Korraz wrote:
While all those miniatures, books and White Dwarfs won't spontaneously combust the second 9th hits, "Old" WHFB will still slowly wither. There are still communities of Specialist Gamers out there, there are probably people playing Confrontation, AT-43, Alkemy and all those other games that left us.
But, and this is a BIG but: A game that is not supported shrivels away. Yes, even if new releases can be used in the old game (and that is a big if), it will slowly lose the momentum it has left, with no new books, no exposure, no direct recruitment.
The big things Warhammer has going for it are the Fluff and the fact that there are so many people that play it. The latter is something WHFB has almost lost and the former is being completely demolished by GW. So, with the fluff that many people love gone and with the same playerbase most dead games have, many people will simply stop. There is nothing new to talk about on boards, everything that happens, happens in Bubbleworld now and there is next to nobody left to play. Sure, it will keep going for a while, but it will go the same way Specialist Games went after they cut support, especially if they actually remove existing models from the ranges.

I don't disagree, but I think the attitude of 'a game is only worth playing if the publisher keeps releasing things to buy for it' isn't universal, is unhelpful, and is something that GW's power-hungry practises have had no small hand in cementing in gamers' minds, over the years.
As Korinov said so well, the community should have a much bigger say in the popularity and playability of a game, rather than leaving it all up to the company. (It depresses me a little to see how many gamers do leave it all up to GW, and flail in a panic when GW holds the scissors over one of the apron strings) All that should really matter, if rules and minis are possessed or available, is what your community enjoys. Don't worry about anyone else! Why are you worrying about anyone else? Stuff the company if they've stopped printing the rules in favour of inferior games or edition shakeups. Stuff that other gaming club a few dozen miles down the road if they still drink the kool-aid and only buy and use the latest thing over and over again. If you and your group have been playing an older or more obscure game and still enjoy it, that's all it takes.
Ditto that in the internet age, communities have never been able to communicate, research, test the waters, co-ordinate and organise so well. Even outside individual clubs and localities. Blood Bowl tournies have been mentioned. I think there are still Inquisitor events organised through the Conclave forum, even. Oldhammerers and Wargames Foundry have started Oldhammer gatherings at Foundry's premises. I've recently learned about a resurgence of Epic:A popularity in a club not too far away from me, that I should check out soon. It's like so much else in life: it's not as likely to happen if you just flop back and hope it'll land in your lap. You gotta look for, ask about, and make the opportunities.

Also, fluff and player base are arguably all that Warhammer - the Warhammer rules, specifically - has going for it. I personally feel that if there's a mass exodus at the release of 9th, or if WFB crashes and burns afterwards, big-battle Warhammer could dwindle even further than some SGs, 'cos when it's on a more level playing field with other mass-battle fantasy rulesets folk could realise just how clunky and inappropriate it is.

@Vermis - As some people on these boards have pointed out to me, their local GW is their only place to play. This becomes a serious issue when the game you want to play is no longer supported, and sometimes no longer welcome at the store.

It's all fine and dandy to say "just keep playing what you want!". That doesn't always work. My friends have stopped playing 40k and WHFB all together, due almost entirely to 7e's rapid release and End Times respectively. I'd like to get a game in, but have no local GW or FLGS. Which means my entire collection sits essentially useless.

So while "just play what you want" or "once GW dies other games will become popular" seems like common sense, it only works if you have other options in the first place.

 Vermis wrote:
Ta Korinov.

Spoiler:

 Korraz wrote:
While all those miniatures, books and White Dwarfs won't spontaneously combust the second 9th hits, "Old" WHFB will still slowly wither. There are still communities of Specialist Gamers out there, there are probably people playing Confrontation, AT-43, Alkemy and all those other games that left us.
But, and this is a BIG but: A game that is not supported shrivels away. Yes, even if new releases can be used in the old game (and that is a big if), it will slowly lose the momentum it has left, with no new books, no exposure, no direct recruitment.
The big things Warhammer has going for it are the Fluff and the fact that there are so many people that play it. The latter is something WHFB has almost lost and the former is being completely demolished by GW. So, with the fluff that many people love gone and with the same playerbase most dead games have, many people will simply stop. There is nothing new to talk about on boards, everything that happens, happens in Bubbleworld now and there is next to nobody left to play. Sure, it will keep going for a while, but it will go the same way Specialist Games went after they cut support, especially if they actually remove existing models from the ranges.

I don't disagree, but I think the attitude of 'a game is only worth playing if the publisher keeps releasing things to buy for it' isn't universal, is unhelpful, and is something that GW's power-hungry practises have had no small hand in cementing in gamers' minds, over the years.
As Korinov said so well, the community should have a much bigger say in the popularity and playability of a game, rather than leaving it all up to the company. (It depresses me a little to see how many gamers do leave it all up to GW, and flail in a panic when GW holds the scissors over one of the apron strings) All that should really matter, if rules and minis are possessed or available, is what your community enjoys. Don't worry about anyone else! Why are you worrying about anyone else? Stuff the company if they've stopped printing the rules in favour of inferior games or edition shakeups. Stuff that other gaming club a few dozen miles down the road if they still drink the kool-aid and only buy and use the latest thing over and over again. If you and your group have been playing an older or more obscure game and still enjoy it, that's all it takes.
Ditto that in the internet age, communities have never been able to communicate, research, test the waters, co-ordinate and organise so well. Even outside individual clubs and localities. Blood Bowl tournies have been mentioned. I think there are still Inquisitor events organised through the Conclave forum, even. Oldhammerers and Wargames Foundry have started Oldhammer gatherings at Foundry's premises. I've recently learned about a resurgence of Epic:A popularity in a club not too far away from me, that I should check out soon. It's like so much else in life: it's not as likely to happen if you just flop back and hope it'll land in your lap. You gotta look for, ask about, and make the opportunities.

Also, fluff and player base are arguably all that Warhammer - the Warhammer rules, specifically - has going for it. I personally feel that if there's a mass exodus at the release of 9th, or if WFB crashes and burns afterwards, big-battle Warhammer could dwindle even further than some SGs, 'cos when it's on a more level playing field with other mass-battle fantasy rulesets folk could realise just how clunky and inappropriate it is.

All very well said and a wonderful idea/notion. The thing you are missing is that without support, new players are less likely to play a game. Sure you may have some that join via seeing a game of 8th being played post release of 9th, but few stores are actively going to push a rule set to new players that they eventually can't/won't be able to carry. Company non-support of a rule set isn't a kiss of death, but it certainly isn't packing em in.

EDIT: Steamdragon brings up another similar problem, as well as his Ninja abilities

 streamdragon wrote:
@Vermis - As some people on these boards have pointed out to me, their local GW is their only place to play. This becomes a serious issue when the game you want to play is no longer supported, and sometimes no longer welcome at the store.

It's all fine and dandy to say "just keep playing what you want!". That doesn't always work. My friends have stopped playing 40k and WHFB all together, due almost entirely to 7e's rapid release and End Times respectively. I'd like to get a game in, but have no local GW or FLGS. Which means my entire collection sits essentially useless.

So while "just play what you want" or "once GW dies other games will become popular" seems like common sense, it only works if you have other options in the first place.

I don't think it's that difficult to craft a 180x120cm gaming table. Heck, I know it's not that difficult, because I did when I was 15 years old (with some help from my dad). You can even play on smaller surfaces at lower point games, or even scaling down distances if necessary.

A tabletop game can be played virtually everywhere as long as you have a decently sized surface and a bit of space to move around it. If your local GW is the only shop available, try looking for alternatives. Try to get into contact with your town council to know if there's some space available in any public buildings (a civic centre i.e.). It may take some effort, but then again as Vermis said, don't expect good things to come at you and sit on your lap ready for the taking, sometimes you will have to work your way to get what you want.

You'd be surprised how much a bunch of determined people can achieve if they truly set their sights on a goal and work towards it. As I wrote before, the gaming community should be more willing to take a step forward or two and bend things to their liking instead of letting companies pimp them (us) and dictate what they (we) must do.

In other words, be a gamer, not an indolent and submissive "hostage client".

Korinov,

You can build your own game space, but it doesn't matter if you don't have an opponent. The second half of Steamdragon's point is that all of his local player base has moved away from GW. He can make his own space, but unless someone else wants to play, his minis will still sit unused. He's not "Walking Dead", he's "I am Legend".

My local group is pretty much the same. fantasy is dead, 40K has been shelved, even by the hardest core players due to lack of opponents. Several fantasy players have looked at moving their armies in the second hand market but can't even due that due to the flood of people doing the same.

Personally, mine are sitting in deep storage, waiting for the day my kids might have an interest. Then I will dust them off and find some kind of rule set to use them with.

Steamdragon: is GW their only place to play because it's the only place to play or because it's the only place they play? When GW kicked the 'vets' out of the Belfast store, years ago, I thought I was in the same boat. (that didn't even involve any kind of ragequitting or self-exile over edition changes or army invalidation; it was a pretty clear 'get thee hence') Then one of the ex-vets started hosting games in his home, and we started finding out about a bunch of other gaming clubs around the country, in my case one that was much, much closer than the GW store. I'd just never known about it because I hadn't looked, or asked.
If there are no apparent clubs or informal groups about, well, I did say stuff about organisation and making opportunities.

With all due respect it sounds like your friends are poster boys for the effect I complained about in my previous post. Have they sold all their armies and rulebooks, or like you have they held onto them but just peer at them every so often and grumble? There might be programmed commands that they can only be used with 7th or End Times, but I don't think they've been implanted in the heads of the models.

For all of that, groaning and giving in is definitely an option, but it doesn't sound like it's a very satisfying one.

Gunslinger: why do you need new gamers (or, let's face it, customers) to enjoy an old game that you and a bunch of your pals have enjoyed countless times before?

I swear this kind of thing feels like this at times. Come on through, GW gamers! There's no glass! Come on, boy!

 Korinov wrote:

I don't think it's that difficult to craft a 180x120cm gaming table. Heck, I know it's not that difficult, because I did when I was 15 years old (with some help from my dad). You can even play on smaller surfaces at lower point games, or even scaling down distances if necessary.

I know how to make a table.

 Korinov wrote:

A tabletop game can be played virtually everywhere as long as you have a decently sized surface and a bit of space to move around it. If your local GW is the only shop available, try looking for alternatives. Try to get into contact with your town council to know if there's some space available in any public buildings (a civic centre i.e.). It may take some effort, but then again as Vermis said, don't expect good things to come at you and sit on your lap ready for the taking, sometimes you will have to work your way to get what you want.

You'd be surprised how much a bunch of determined people can achieve if they truly set their sights on a goal and work towards it. As I wrote before, the gaming community should be more willing to take a step forward or two and bend things to their liking instead of letting companies pimp them (us) and dictate what they (we) must do.

In other words, be a gamer, not an indolent and submissive "hostage client".

As to this, fantastic cheer leading for a daytime kid's show I guess. I mean, it basically ignores that gaming companies actually are in control of what games are available (and thus popular). There's a reason older games have died: they lose support. How many active Necromunda store campaigns do you think there are now versus when they were actively supported by and in GW stores? Mordheim? Gorkamorka? Advanced Hero Quest?

"Hostage client"? I opined on what my friend's were doing, not what GW was doing. My group didn't like what GW was doing, so they've moved onto X-Wing. I fail to see how that's a "hostage client", whatever that means. Doesn't mean I can't lament the way that GW has treated fantasy to the point when my friends sell their armies rather than play.

 Vermis wrote:

Gunslinger: why do you need new gamers (or, let's face it, customers) to enjoy an old game that you and a bunch of your pals have enjoyed countless times before?

Because reality is that everything that does not grow, shrinks. And games that shrink eventually die off.

Personally i am not too worried about 9th. I think their new rules will be a sort of warmachine stile skirmish game, but that actually scales well. There are several aveneus for this, it is not undoable and think what we might of GW, they are not simply going to kill off one of their major ips.

 Vermis wrote:
Steamdragon: is GW their only place to play because it's the only place to play or because it's the only place they play?

I'll have to let them answer that. I can't even give you names, I just know that the issue has come up repeatedly in previous threads about edition changes and the slowly dwindling popularity of certain games.

 Vermis wrote:

With all due respect it sounds like your friends are poster boys for the effect I complained about in my previous post. Have they sold all their armies and rulebooks, or like you have they held onto them but just peer at them every so often and grumble? There might be programmed commands that they can only be used with 7th or End Times, but I don't think they've been implanted in the heads of the models.

I know certain armies have been sold off, or are being sold off. I've considered unloading some of my 6 40k armies because I haven't played in several years and they're taking up tons of space.

I'm fully aware that we could play. I still have my rule books, I still have my templates, I still have my figures and everything necessary. The issue is the desire to play. I have the desire, but find I'm the only one. The lack of desire for WHFB, for example, stems almost entirely from what 9th edition is shaping up to be. Our Lizardman player is justifiably annoyed at best with how Lizardmen have been treated in end times. Hearing "skaven going forward will be unrecognizable from their current iteration" and "old armies will exist but get no support" makes me look at my skaven and go "so basically you're useless to me in 9th". So that removes all desire to look at 9th. When I lose interest in the future iteration of a game, it makes me lose interest in the current because I can understand that there will be no evolution of the game.

So I dropped a bunch of money on X-Wing, because hey, I'll still be playing something with my friends. Which is the desired end result.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I think he meant the "90% the same runour" rather than a rumour monger's accuracy dude..

Yup. It was more of a response to the pleas for calm due to the "reassuring" 90% the same rumor claim. The following sentences are 90% the same yet I don't think most people would view them as meaning the same thing.




In any case, I think most of the rumors are heading towards a much changed game and fluff for Warhammer. Since I've never really played fantasy, I've been largely watching from the sidelines to see how the changes may foretell the future of 40k with the next edition. While I think 40k needs a major fluff advancement like End Times, I'd worry about the legacy support of older models as well. As long as the rules continue to allow you to use them (even if GW stops selling them), I'd be fine with it. I guess we'll find out in about 6 months once things shake out of the fanstasy warp portal.

I am, quite worried about my armies (Tree Spirits and Dwarves)...
I donno what's gonna happen to them and, if they'll still really exist...
Fantasy was all I played and now, this looks like I got nothing left, all the tables and people in the world won't benefit me if I got no army.
And GW is really the only place I play at, since that's the only place people play Fantasy where I live.

With "Forces of Light", I wonder if GW is going for an even more radical simplification than what we had previously seen suggested.

major forces:
1. Forces of Chaos (DoC, HoC, BoC)
2. Forces of Undeath (VC & TK)
3. Forces of Light (Empire, Brets, HElves, WElves, Delves, Dorfs, OK)

minor forces:
4. Skaven
5. O&G
6. Lizardmen

Note that this matches the early rumor of 6 armies, but GW would only really be obligated to maintain 3 of them as core staples. Lizardmen, etc. would be treated like Sisters of Battle in 40k.

So Skaven trash a bunch of nations (I mean, they're practically the reason that dwarves are so screwed) in End Times, but then get relegated to a "minor force"?

Also, I thought there was a new human faction as one of the 6?

According to earlier rumors, Ogres & Dorfs are folded in with Men - there is no new humans faction.

Now, it's saying that Elves and Men are folded together as "Forces of Light"

As for Skaven, it's not clear if they are standalone or not. I just know they're not Undead, and they're not Chaos. They don't lack the breadth or potential of the Chaos and Undead ranges. They are a minor force from a sales standpoint, regardless of how they sit in the fluff.

I thought Skaven were wheeling and dealing with Chaos, and might get brought into their fold?

I almost wonder if they find a way to over Chaos itself the way they're rolling recently, or get royally burned for dealing with Chaos in the first place.

Maybe that will explain why they're supposedly going to be so different looking when 9th rolls around. Screwing around with things they shouldn't be?

Maybe Skaven pulled one over on Chaos and are the reason for the fractured universe due to massive warpstone bomb? *Purely Speculation.

Looking at some of the army lists, I am thinking that those of us with all the old Rackham models will be able to do a lot of easy and obvious counts-as action. I seem to recall having an ogre or two dressed up like an Empire state troop around here somewhere...

 Wehrkind wrote:
Looking at some of the army lists, I am thinking that those of us with all the old Rackham models will be able to do a lot of easy and obvious counts-as action. I seem to recall having an ogre or two dressed up like an Empire state troop around here somewhere...

I would be doing the ton of uraken I have then, to go with my forest gobbos

The army of light content is very odd! This all seems to head to be character vs character battles

I think you need to stop thinking in old WHFB categories (Brettonia, Empire, ...) and think more along the lines of D&D / LotR: Good - Neutral - Bad.

That forces of light-Idea isn't the worst that can happen. Sure, there will be like 6 factions rolled into one - high elves, wood elves, brettonia, empire, dwarfs, new fantasy-marine-paladins. On one hand it will be pretty hard to get a mono-faction army out of that, since I assume there will be like two units per old subfaction, tops, for quite a while.

On the other hand, that way you might get to paint something different every time you buy a box, which is not that bad as anyone who had to paint 4-5 full squads of boyz/thermagants/IG platoons can tell you. With that "we have to release only a couple units per old faction"-approach it might actually save some factions from SoB-status, since they don't have to make a whole codex and product range and instead can just release some juicy, iconic unit everyone might like to some degree.

 Kosake wrote:
I think you need to stop thinking in old WHFB categories (Brettonia, Empire, ...) and think more along the lines of D&D / LotR: Good - Neutral - Bad.

That forces of light-Idea isn't the worst that can happen. Sure, there will be like 6 factions rolled into one - high elves, wood elves, brettonia, empire, dwarfs, new fantasy-marine-paladins. On one hand it will be pretty hard to get a mono-faction army out of that, since I assume there will be like two units per old subfaction, tops, for quite a while.

On the other hand, that way you might get to paint something different every time you buy a box, which is not that bad as anyone who had to paint 4-5 full squads of boyz/thermagants/IG platoons can tell you. With that "we have to release only a couple units per old faction"-approach it might actually save some factions from SoB-status, since they don't have to make a whole codex and product range and instead can just release some juicy, iconic unit everyone might like to some degree.

Yeah guys, ignore that you've spent possibly years putting together your army, you can now put together ANOTHER army that you COULD have put together before but opted not to! GW is saving you from yourself!

@Bolded. I play Skaven, Beastmen, Tyranids, IG and Orks. Oh, and SoB. Painting a billion of a single model isn't anything that someone selecting those armies is surprised by.

 Kosake wrote:
I think you need to stop thinking in old WHFB categories (Brettonia, Empire, ...) and think more along the lines of D&D / LotR: Good - Neutral - Bad.

That forces of light-Idea isn't the worst that can happen. Sure, there will be like 6 factions rolled into one - high elves, wood elves, brettonia, empire, dwarfs, new fantasy-marine-paladins.

Or, it could be 2 factions, like what we saw in the global Warhammer Fantasy "Storm of Chaos" campaign:
- Disorder (DoC, HoC, BoC, CD, DElfs, Skaven, Orks, VC, TK)
- Order (Empire, Brets, DoW, Dorfs, HElfs, WElfs)

Speaking of, if we get models for Witch Elfs of Slaanesh, that would be pretty cool.

Shotgun wrote:Korinov,

You can build your own game space, but it doesn't matter if you don't have an opponent. The second half of Steamdragon's point is that all of his local player base has moved away from GW. He can make his own space, but unless someone else wants to play, his minis will still sit unused. He's not "Walking Dead", he's "I am Legend".

My local group is pretty much the same. fantasy is dead, 40K has been shelved, even by the hardest core players due to lack of opponents. Several fantasy players have looked at moving their armies in the second hand market but can't even due that due to the flood of people doing the same.

Personally, mine are sitting in deep storage, waiting for the day my kids might have an interest. Then I will dust them off and find some kind of rule set to use them with.

I understand Steamdragon's case or yours are (maybe) already beyond 'salvation' because the potential opponents have just switched to other games and never looked back, specially if they've already sold their armies.

I was talking more about local communities/clubs that are currently wondering what will happen if GW ends up deciding to discontinue Fantasy. To be honest, I find the "game is no longer supported, I'll sell my minis" a bit underwhelming. If you truly enjoy the game, the minis and the background behind it all, you have several editions to choose from in order to keep playing. There are also a bunch of alternative rulesets you can try if you're not really satisfied with what the already existing WHFB editions offer you. I will never understand why people get so attached to "official" and "supported" products, like if that's the only way of having fun.

streamdragon wrote:As to this, fantastic cheer leading for a daytime kid's show I guess. I mean, it basically ignores that gaming companies actually are in control of what games are available (and thus popular). There's a reason older games have died: they lose support. How many active Necromunda store campaigns do you think there are now versus when they were actively supported by and in GW stores? Mordheim? Gorkamorka? Advanced Hero Quest?

Games die after losing support because the community can't be half-assed to make a bit of an effort to keep them alive, as simple as that. Gaming companies are in control on what's available because the lazyass and submissive community will let them be. After years of wargaming I've got the solid impression than the "average GW gamer" is, for the most part, someone who will whine like crazy at any and every kind of change the game may endure, but will never, ever do something productive about it. Along the lines of "wow this new edition is absolute garbage, most of my gaming mates think the same as me, but instead of keep playing the previous edition with some agreed tweaks, we'll actually play the new garbage edition because Papa GeeDubs tells us so". That's what I call an "hostage client", by the way: someone so invested in his/her loyalty to a certain company/product, that even unconciously admitting he/she's being sold garbage, he/she'll swallow it.

Doesn't mean I can't lament the way that GW has treated fantasy to the point when my friends sell their armies rather than play.

And instead of selling their armies, why don't they try to go back to one of the older editions? The books are there, the minis are there, the players are there. Where's the issue?

 Vermis wrote:
When GW kicked the 'vets' out of the Belfast store, years ago...

Wow, I didn't know that one. Care to elaborate on it a bit further? I don't mind if it's via PM.

I'm a big fan of variety. If one sprue contains a few figures of different sizes/ types, I'd be quite happy.

Even happier if I only need a few of them as opposed to 60+ to make them viable in game.

Minion miniatures was originally talking about having sprues laid out similar to this- one large guy, a couple mid/ human sized figures, and a handful of tiny guys with options for each, and to me it was a great idea.

If GW could actually pull something similar off, and not make me break the bank in order to play, I'd probably end up wanting to sample things from a few factions.

We'll see if that's how they want to play...

StraightSilver wrote:
Isn't that standard now in WHFB since the End Times started?

It's not slightly interesting that the starter has models from different armies ?

Because that is most certainly new for a WHFB starter set isn't it ?

 Korinov wrote:

And instead of selling their armies, why don't they try to go back to one of the older editions? The books are there, the minis are there, the players are there. Where's the issue?

Just because the older editions are seen as being better than the new one doesn't mean that it's seen as good. People might want to play the game and hope for better rules in the future. If systems are not supported (through the company, online, or a local club) then a lot of the support falls onto them (the gamers) and it just might not be worth the effort for them, simple as that. Not everybody wants to do the work they would need to do to play the game. It might be a willpower thing, laziness, convenience, not wanting to keep up with the bookkeeping/logistics, or anything.

Some people might just want to play the game and it might be easier or simpler for them or just make them happy enough to just complain if things don't work out (or play video games or just drop the game and switch to another activity while missing the game). You might be willing to do the work, other people sure do (see all the rules online) but for someone else it just might not be worth it. Not everybody copes with these problems in the same way and your solution, no matter how simple and easy it is to you, might not be worth it for somebody else.

For example: cooking a quick, cheap, simple, and healthy meal at home should be possible for most people but they also have other needs/wants and constraints that make it hard for them and no matter how many recipes one were to send to these people they would still not manage. And here were are talking about a game played in our free time, not something essential to our survival. There are other options that just might be easier to access without all the additional hassle.

So while the points you (all of you who say to not be fixed upon one game) make are useful, they are also not always applicable and you might not understand why some people would give a company that power these people do it probably for some type of convenience/security.

Think of the difference between a freelancer and a salaried employee. Both get money for work and there is a security/freedom tradeoff that people make and some people thrive in one environment while others prefer the other one, neither is wrong or right.

You might not understand why people do it but you should understand that people do it.

Unsupported games die for a very simple reason. No new blood. It is a fantasy world to say a player base can keep a game alive - it just isn't so. Several reasons:

1) no models available for new players. If I play C3 with a new person how the heck are they supposed to buy the models at an affordable rate. Now try BFG or Epic etc etc

2) In a gaming circle most people tend to move on to the newer version of the game. That again is reality. Finding someone willing to write out a list for 6th or 7th isnt as easy as you make out.

3) Many smaller games are just not that popular and get dropped by most gaming groups as others in the group werent that interested in playing them. I for instance have never seen hero quest in either UK or US. Never seen it. Heard people talk about many many time. Necromunda, maybe 3 or 4 times. Mordheim I have seen re-org several times successfully because new players cannablise existing GW models to make a war band. Never seen Epic either - even though I have owned several models. Warmaster - briefly appeared and died. HOTT and the other 15mm game similar? Had 3 or 4 armies of those.

4) In the US, the majority of gaming takes place in stores. Clubs are few and far between. Huge diff between here and UK - fyi, I am English but live in US so have seen both sides.

 fullheadofhair wrote:
Unsupported games die for a very simple reason. No new blood. It is a fantasy world to say a player base can keep a game alive - it just isn't so. Several reasons:

1) no models available for new players. If I play C3 with a new person how the heck are they supposed to buy the models at an affordable rate. Now try BFG or Epic etc etc

-snip-.

This is the biggest one for me. It's easy to talk about keeping a game going, but if part of the appeal of the game is the setting and its aesthetic, not having access to models that have the right visual themes is a problem. For example, some people might be happy using the relatively cheap(not a slight against their quality) Perry WotR figures to build an Empire army, but goddamnit I want my pseudo-gothic, skull-encrusted not-Landsknecht with steam-driven tanks and ridiculous mythical-chicken cavalry. Even finding enough models of the right aesthetic to put together a human Mordheim warband without any GW figures at all is a stretch, let alone the three+ that typically take part in a campaign or an entire tabletop army. There's been a group of people wanting to try Epic in my area for the last two years, but only one actually has an army and the rest of us haven't been able to find/win a decent ebay auction or locate a secondhand army anywhere, and not many of the "not-Epic" 6mm models out there actually look like the GW factions. BFG looks to be finally getting out of the slump it was in for a while with no 3rd party models and ridiculous ebay prices, but there still aren't a lot of options if you want Gothic space-cathedrals and organic-designed solar-sail space elves, and those that there are ain't cheap because they're from small companies working in resin.

If all this was about was chucking some plastic on a table and moving them about with friends, sure no problem, but for a lot of folk model ranges are not interchangeable.