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 Dysartes wrote:

warl0rdb0b wrote:
The heavy bolter gal is awesome, though I'd have prefered her with fewer bionics, and I can't see many people buying the autogunner just as a ganger if these are priced as the Escher Matriarchs.

That said,it wouldn't take a huge amount of effort to add the top half of a Marine combi weapon to the autogun and mod the muzzle to be a boltgun, although having nothing but high ranking women would be odd in any gang bar Escher.

Is it an autogun? My first thought, glancing at the picture in passing, was drum-fed combat shotgun.

The Orlock combat shotguns are similar, but not quite the same [spoilered because random picture from the interwebz is massive]:

Hoping these are cheaper if they are meant to just be Gangers/Specialists. And indeed, hoping there will be more than 2 sculpts. Maybe 1 Champion and at least 3 Gangers, the latter sold together for a much lower price than individual characters. (Insert Gandalf "There never was much hope. Just a fool's hope" quote here. Inserted. Done.)

I like what they did with those two. That is almost a fireteam of their own, just pack the one with the autogun up with a few belts and ammo packs, and let those two be a Heavy Weapon team. One with the autogun covers the back, while the front is covered by a Heavy Bolter...

And yes, those sculpts are 110% better then the usual GW butter faces we get.

I'm halfway tempted to get a few of them for the Catachans that I have, or add in some Rocket Launchers for a change up.

 Robert Facepalmer wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
Wreckers have access to good weapons and is actualy the best prospect so far

Yeah, I was shocked at how great Wreckers are and how abysmally pants the Arms Masters are.

I've seen this negative opinion of Arms Masters from a lot of people following the rules being shown, and I absolutely don't get it. For a small cost (15 credits) over a Road Sgt you get 3+WS and 2 significant special rules - you don't give up the Group Activation rule either, unlike other specialist Champions so far. Giving Nerves of Steel to allies is great, I do get that it won't have an effect automatically every turn due to being triggered by the Arms Master activating, but it's still very good. Then you get -2 to Bottle Rolls which is huge. Literally a skill from the Leadership tree, taken twice, for free. For that last rule alone, I'd take an Arms Master in every starting gang, it will save you some games across a campaign.

Against that, all you lose is the ability to take special/heavy weapons. That does restrict your options, but a gang needs close combat power as well and your Arms Masters can provide that. If you want a versatile close-medium range shooter, he can access Basic Weapons at the trading post - what's wrong with a boltgun champ? Even from his starting list, which is a non-issue in a world where the Trading Post exists, you can get shotguns and combat shotguns, which especially with upgraded ammo are some of the best basic weapons in the game. I envision most of my gangs taking an equal number of Arms Masters to Road Sgts - the former do close quarters work and the latter get builds around specific special or heavy weapons.

I get that Road Sgts appear to have lost Savant and Arms Masters also don't have it, and Bravado is a mostly-crap skill tree. But Arms Masters (and all Orlock leader/champs) can still pick from Ferocity, one of the best skill trees in the game, and they can all pick a Legendary name. Not all of those have drawbacks, some are very useful little skills, adding them for free is pretty great.

For 15 points more than a Sergeant, you get a 'combat' champion that will get housed by a Stimmer/Death Maiden/Corpse Grinder no problem and has to play bunchball to give out Nerves Scooby Snax.
Ya dun goofed when the double-handed hammer is actually looking like a somewhat reasonable choice. Then you realize at least a third of your gang value is in one T3 2W fig.

Also starts with 1 free Legendary Name (nobody need to earn anything anymore?) so that is almost equal to starting with 2 skills.

 Robert Facepalmer wrote:
For 15 points more than a Sergeant, you get a 'combat' champion that will get housed by a Stimmer/Death Maiden/Corpse Grinder no problem and has to play bunchball to give out Nerves Scooby Snax.
Ya dun goofed when the double-handed hammer is actually looking like a somewhat reasonable choice. Then you realize at least a third of your gang value is in one T3 2W fig.

Nonsense, any decently kitted A2 3+WS fighter in Necromunda has a good chance to take out another fighter on the charge, so combat is often just a matter of tactics and who gets their attacks in first. An Arms Master isn't as capable in melee as a Stimmer, Death Maiden or the leader/champ Corpsegrinders, that is true. It also brings a different set of abilities to those models. Maybe don't pit a melee fighter head to head against your opponent's strongest, most purely-melee champions, when you could at least attempt to shoot the choppy and chop the shooty?

6" range to hand out NoS is hardly bunching up - it's a longer distance than the normal Group Activation range which you want to have a friend within anyway. Buying an Arc Hammer (70) for your Arms Master (95) along with, say, Mesh Armour (15) and a Stub Gun (5) is 185 credits, which isn't what I'd do at gang creation but definitely isn't a third of your starting value either.

Yeah, I agree about that : the Arms Master may be not as obvious good as the Wreckers, but he does fill a role in the gang and have nice synergies with the road sergeant. What I like the best here is that he doesn't replace the road sergeant, exactly because he doesn't have access to the same weapons.

So it's not "sloppy writing". It's a clever rule design.

Just a shame that the stock parts for the Arc Hammer are locked into using at least a partial Servo-Harness.

 Robert Facepalmer wrote:
Just a shame that the stock parts for the Arc Hammer are locked into using at least a partial Servo-Harness.

True, but in that case, you're not investing in a E3 fighter. Since it also boosts S and E significantly.

Wow, love that HB model. I think the scarring was a poor sculpting choice (hard to paint well), but that's just a great design. Don't play necro, but I feel like that character is destined for some RPG etc. role. Maybe a variant Harker or something.

 Dysartes wrote:
Is it an autogun? My first thought, glancing at the picture in passing, was drum-fed combat shotgun.

That's definitely an autogun muzzle brake.

The only similar between Orlock shotgun and autogun is the drum mag, and they're both guns.

Makes for an easy conversion though.

zamerion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Graphite wrote:

zamerion wrote:

Spoiler:

Should've give them a facemask. Protection against toxin gas are my number 1 priority.

Guys. If you are still considering whether to buy Gang Stronghold or not, go check Owen Patten's Twitter. After that the real qestion is how many should you buy. I am getting at least two.

jullevi wrote:
Guys. If you are still considering whether to buy Gang Stronghold or not, go check Owen Patten's Twitter. After that the real qestion is how many should you buy. I am getting at least two.

ZM Tip no. 6 - first person that does a trench run layout for AI definitely wins a prize.*

* No actual prizes are available but it would look cool

The gunk tower is compatible with all the other Sector Mechanicus pieces?

Well... that changes things.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The gunk tower is compatible with all the other Sector Mechanicus pieces?

Well... that changes things.

*pictures HBMC pre-ordering a half dozen instantly*

The HW arms of the standard box fit the arms-master body without too much hassle and the shotgun arm lends itself to conversions pretty well.

I picked one of the forts out.

If you are an Ork player, get yourself a couple... The set is awesome and compatible with that other Ork scenery from the new Ork sets..

 Grot 6 wrote:
I picked one of the forts out.

If you are an Ork player, get yourself a couple... The set is awesome and compatible with that other Ork scenery from the new Ork sets..

The Mek Workshop, and the stuff from Speed Freaks?

Does the volume of terrain stack up well value-wise? I like the look of all the bits, but when I compare it to, say, Kill Team starter box or the 40K Command edition, there seems to be way less terrain included for not that much less money paid (given the extra stuff in those aforementioned boxes).

Disclaimer: Necromunda is a fun game to play regardless of its flaws. If you don't like to see criticism, please ignore this post.

Here are some notes and errors found in House of Iron, which you may want to discuss, declare or solve prior to or while playing.

ERRORS:
- Combat shotgun cost: 55 for leader & champion, 60 for arms master. Comment: Price should not be different for different fighters!
- Shotgun cost: 30 for leader & champion, 25 for arms master. Comment: Price should not be different for different fighters!
- Fighting knife cost: 15 for leader & champion, 10 for arms master. Comment: Price should not be different for different fighters!
- Arms master shotgun includes salvo & shredder. Comment: Salvo & shredder is ammo for combat shotgun, NOT regular shotgun. Should be scatter & solid.
- Dog: 0-3 for leader, 0-2 for champs. Comment: Why is this different?
- Sawn-off shotgun (solid & scatter ammo): Sawn-off shotgun now comes included with scatter ammo (same as original profile) and can be upgraded with a new solid ammo. Comment: However no new or old references to this weapon specify any ammo. Is it safe to assume that scatter is default unless otherwise specified? Even affects some new content in the same book (new Orlock Booby trap and some Tactics).
- Throwing Knives (Armoury) has Str S. Comment: Toxin weapon should never have any Str.
- Combi grenade launcher - frag (Armoury) does not have Combi or Single shot. Comment: Looks like they copy-pasted the standard GL frag profile.
- Melta bombs (Armoury) got Scarce & Melta. Comment: Wasn't this fixed in HoC? Scarce and Melta on Grenades doesn't make sense.
- Servitor (Brute) does not list servitor combat weapon. Comment: Is it lost? Still listed in Armoury so probably not.
- Margo Merdena's Leg Blades doesn't have the Melee trait. Comment: Why explicitly and redundantly declare Melee trait when they can't follow their own standards? It would be a lot easier for them to skip declaring Melee completely (all weapons with range E are always Melee).
- All Legendary Names comes with a drawback. Comment: Blade Breaker doesn't have any drawback. Arguably Iron Stare doesn't have a drawback either (could be situational).
- Which fighters can take Legendary Names? "Orlock Legendary Names are special names that can be given to an Orlock Leader or Champion" vs "Any fighter can have up to 2 Legendary names. Any fighter with the Gang Hierarchy (X) special rule can have up to 3 Legendary Names".
- Greaste Monkey (Hangers-on): A Brute or all Wreckers gain an 'overcharge' effect each activation, requiring to pass a test by rolling dice. Comment: Is this optional, or must the test be made each activation? Could be very lethal for the Brute to fail multiple times! How does this work with jump-boosters? Is it in addition or instead? Can the effects be split and used in separate actions? Can they be used simultaneously (stacked)?
- Guilder Contact (Bravado Skill): Gives a discount to hired fighters. Comment: This is presumably applied after committing to paying for the hired gun? Presumably this discount doesn't stack?
- Champion Equipment List does not include power knife. Comment: Why is this omitted? This is available for both Leader and gangers.
- Loot Box (Orlock gang specific terrain)deployment. How or where can these be deployed?
- Arc hammer has Versatile 1" and takes 2 weapon slots without Unwieldy. Comment: What is the purpose of Versatile 1"? Taking 2 weapon slots without being Unwieldy is quite unusual (for close combat weapons). Is this on purpose?
- What is the probability of rolling a natural 1 on a D3 (wrecker's overcharged jump booster and Grease Monkey's overcharge effect)?
- Gang specific terrain is placed in friendly deployment zone or in no-mans-land (if specified). Comment: Some deviations from this rule. Sawn-off surprise follows the rules for Booby traps and can be placed anywhere. Promethium barrels can be placed anywhere at least 3" from enemy deployment zone.
- Heavy stubber turret (Road Relic): Burst mode has Rapid Fire (1). Comment: None of the 7 other Heavy stubber profiles have Rapid Fire less than 2. This is suspiciously similar to the Goliath turret from HoC...
- Sawn-off shotgun now use new 'scatter' ammo (same as the original) and can be upgraded with 'solid' ammo (makes it more similar to regular shotgun). Comment: What does all references to sawn-off shotgun (without specifying ammo) mean now? Most likely if nothing is specified, it only means scatter, but this isn't explained.

NOTES:
- King Hit (Bravado skill) is a weaker version of One Punch (Legendary Name).
- Big Brother (Bravado skill) is a weaker version of Unbreakable Will (Telepathy) and Devotion (Chaos Leader).
- Wreckers are the only specialist juves that can buy close combat weapons from TP/BM. Why?

CHANGES:
- Rebel Lord: Lost 2 digi lasers. Because why? Traded light carapace for mesh. Updated weapon options. Old: (2x master-crafted laspistols + stiletto sword) OR (bolt pistol + thunder hammer). New: 1 melee weapon (power sword, stiletto sword or thunder hammer) + 1 pistol (bolt pistol or master-crafted needle pistol).
- Heavy Rock Cutter: No mention of Orlock specific rarity at the trading post (Rare 8). Comment: Probably Rare (9) like for all other gangs.
- Explicitly specifies the exact number of fighters in the Coin Guild

UNIVERSAL 'HOUSE OF ...' HOUSE GANG CODEX ISSUES

These are flaws in the universal structure of house gangs and can be expected to be repeated for all house gang codexes:

- Gang Hierarchy specifies Cool tests for fleeing the battlefield is in the End phase. This is a change from start of the round.
- House Agents:
- What happens when Petitioning for House Agent and the gang gets fined (2D6*10 credits), but can't pay?
- The fined result (16+) will never trigger because no gang with 10+ Reputation is going to roll for Petition.
- Since House Agents have a variable cost, what is their contribution to gang rating? Their Equipment rule state the free equipment you get for them should be accounted for when determining Gang Rating, but what is the base value of the House Agent? Generic has a rating of 40 or 80 credits? Special Character has rating of 100 or 200?
- Bounty Hunter (Generic):
- Can equip items from the Trading Post, but does not specify any limitation in Rarity. The old (universal) generic Bounty Hunter could use items with rarity 10 or less.
- Promotion: Specialist (Gangers) can be promoted to Champion, but refers to old promotion rules when only the single original Champion fighter type existed. It is unclear what types of Champions a Specialists can be promoted to now, since there are 2 types. Comparing promotion of prospects (new 'specialist' juve fighter), this varies depending on gang:
- Goliath: Prospect can be promoted to Champion or Stimmer
- Escher: Prospect can be promoted to Champion only (not Death-maiden for obvious fluff reasons)
- Orlock: ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Could also note that one of the new Orlock scenarios "Road Block" is particularly flawed.

First, it requires one gang to literally walk across the battlefield in a narrow road and survive and literally walk through the opponent gang. Before either side bottles and fleeing. I'm sorry to say the game don't work this way. When gangs get close, stuff die. I would be happy to see a battle report proving otherwise. Without exploiting skills like infiltrate on 3+ fighters to buypass the whole point of the scenario, or equipment from the black market, this is pretty much impossible.

Second, the defender can sacrifice 1 fighter, then bottle and flee to win and deny the attacker winning. If you house rule the attacker to win if the defender bottles and flees, then the whole point of the scenario is mute, it becomes a standard shoot-out instead. In either case, the attacker is never going to reach the "intended" goal.

Things like 3 dogs for leaders and 2 for champions, and even weapon costs could easily be design choices rather than errors.

Yeah, I don’t see why the boss having more dogs (potentially anyway) is a problem. Might as well ask why they get better group activation.

Other than that it looks like a lot of stuff that needs a FAQ. Even if it’s just a “yes we meant for the prices to be different” kind of answer.

Yeah I thought he was reaching for errors with that dog one when I read it.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Things like 3 dogs for leaders and 2 for champions, and even weapon costs could easily be design choices rather than errors.

In theory you're right. In practice, this is another silly little mistake. I don't buy the distinction as a design decision, although it is an excuse. What would the reason for the distinction be? Overpowered? Not for dogs. Limit amount of pets? Any champion including Orlock can have infinite amount of rats, 2 grapplehawks, 1 gyrinx cat and 1 hacked cyber-mastiff. Adding 2 rather than 3 regular cyber-mastiffs to that list hardly makes any difference?

We all know things like gang-specific discount for weapons and wargear is a thing. But fighter-specific discount? This would be the first time, and again I wonder why? How does this level of detail make any sense? I don't accept random deviations as intended anymore.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Yeah, I don’t see why the boss having more dogs (potentially anyway) is a problem. Might as well ask why they get better group activation.

Other than that it looks like a lot of stuff that needs a FAQ. Even if it’s just a “yes we meant for the prices to be different” kind of answer.

Better group activation is because they are higher rank, have more authority. The limitation in pets has never in the 13 prior books been separated on rank. It was a huge surprise to most people when this limitation was FAQ'ed to be per fighter and not per gang. What makes Orlock so special that their pets are the only ones with this distinction of limitation per rank? Makes no sense to me and is most likely an error. It's not the first time GW mess up the re-print of rules for pets, keep in mind the pet in the previous book had 2 different costs.

It's not a problem though, since dogs (at least the regular cyber mastiffs) are trash tier and it doesn't matter if you take 2, 3 or 100. The more you take, the more you lose.

Uh, players.

Did I miss some previous discussion somewhere?

Have the new "House of" dice sets been discussed? In particular, the new distribution of each type in each set?

Players...Daddy is NOT happy about this stealth development.