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gardeth wrote:I'm just sad to see my lovely Dissintegrators reduced to a shadow of their former glory....

Same, i have 9 of the things, or should i say had


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Str 5, AP 2, Heavy 3. 36"

Gwar! wrote:i.e. Nerfed to bits. Take DL instead.

i.e DE gained a crappy 4th ed star cannon that i can't spam on everything to justify using them.

Farmer wrote:

gardeth wrote:I'm just sad to see my lovely Dissintegrators reduced to a shadow of their former glory....

Same, i have 9 of the things, or should i say had


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Str 5, AP 2, Heavy 3. 36"

Gwar! wrote:i.e. Nerfed to bits. Take DL instead.

i.e DE gained a crappy 4th ed star cannon that i can't spam on everything to justify using them.

Yea my friend laughed his ass off when I told him about Dissies, I guess this is karma for making fun of his star cannons.

Am I missing something here? What's so bad about 3 S5 AP2 shots?

asimo77 wrote:Am I missing something here? What's so bad about 3 S5 AP2 shots?

Compared to a S7 AP2 Blast, quite a bit.

The old Dissies were able to not only decimate hoards, but rip apart TMC and even crack light transports.

The new ones are pointless and are a classic example of GW nerfing a current power model to try and sell the same models to their customers again (i.e. everyone already had 3 Ravagers with Dissies, now they want to make people buy 3 more with DL instead). Another great example is the Carnifex. Everyone had 6, so they nerf them to make them have to buy Trygons.

Not really, personal choice maybe. Again, this is like the 'sustained' fire from the old disintegrators except for better str better AP and better range.

Old: S4 AP3 24" 3 Hvy
New: S5 AP2 36" 3 Hvy

So you lost a blast template...And if I heard properly, there's no charge for taking a disintegrator instead of a DL now.

I don't think it's that big of a deal, sure losing a plasma cannon is never fun, but S5 AP2 3 shots aren't bad by any means. Besides they have a unique weapon, plasma cannons can be found in plenty of IoM armies.

I think the new deldar have enough good stuff going for them to make up for this, just my opinion here.

Gwar! wrote:
The new ones are pointless and are a classic example of GW nerfing a current power model to try and sell the same models to their customers again (i.e. everyone already had 3 Ravagers with Dissies, now they want to make people buy 3 more with DL instead). Another great example is the Carnifex. Everyone had 6, so they nerf them to make them have to buy Trygons.

Good point, Gwar i think you might be onto GW.

To be fair, they do it with all the codexes now sadly.

SW were a great example also. Absolutely NOONE! Took Long Fangs... EVER. So, what do they do? They make them so good that even I start any SW list with 15+3 Missile Fangs.

And Blood Claws. Very Few People took more than the One Compulsory GH squad because they could get 3 Half Price (compared to the Modern Marines) Power Fists on a Cheaper body in an 11 man Squad with 4 attacks each (in 3rd and 4th anyway, 3 attacks each in 5th) and have a 4th Power Fist with a WGBL. Funny that, just enough to squeeze into a SM Pod or Land Raider (which have the 12 Capacity). New codex comes and they nerf you to bits, making you have to buy Grey Hunters (they shot themselves in the foot a bit, since you can use BC models as GH because of the Ubergrit).

'I think I'm paranoid' sang Shirley Manson...rings a bell right now.

GW change things in a Codex to shake things up. SHOCK! HORROR! Otherwise, erm...what would be the point in releasing anything new?

Plus, Long Fangs don't do anything today they couldn't do in 2nd Edition. Just saying. Well, apart from that trick with Logan and a Drop Pod of course.

Mr Mystery wrote:
GW change things in a Codex to shake things up. SHOCK! HORROR! Otherwise, erm...what would be the point in releasing anything new?

It is actually tragic, i'm just getting over the shock right now.

Gwar! wrote:

puma713 wrote:

gardeth wrote:I'm just sad to see my lovely Dissintegrators reduced to a shadow of their former glory....

Can you elaborate on this? I've played against DE maybe once in a blue moon in all of the times I've played 40K. What were they and why have they been so reduced?

They used to be Plasma Cannons.

Sort of. They used to have 2 different firing modes. You could either shoot 3 times at S4, AP3, or once at S7, AP2 and you get a blast template. I made fantastic use out of both modes of fire. It was stylish and there was no good reason to change it.

Is there anyone out there that is okay with the new mandrakes btw? They aren't as awesome as we may have hoped but I feel like they have plenty of potential if used correctly.

Another great example is the Carnifex. Everyone had 6, so they nerf them to make them have to buy Trygons.

Carnifex got slightly less indestructible because it can be run in squads of 3 now for a single heavy support choice. Besides, the upgraded W and T Carnifex in the last book was over-the-top to play against. The glass is half empty to some, half full to others.

I have a couple of simple questions with regard to the Talos; has it been basically established that:

A) It looks to be a must-have unit, in terms of being pretty awesome on the tabletop, stats-wise/points-wise, and its utility/what damage it can do?

-and-

B) There are no plans for a model to be released in the near future? (like the Stormraven, which won't be produced til GK get their codex as far as I heard)

I ask because I am planning to start up a DE army with these new models, and want others' opinions as to whether or not I should put some time and energy into converting a Talos (I love to do conversions and hate the old model) Any thoughts on this greatly appreciated!

-C6

PS-I think I saw a pic of the art from the new book of the Talos - was that on this thread, or elsewhere?

Rulewise they don't pop out for me as being particulary neat, but I'll get them anyway. I like the fluff and the models, and if they're relatively cheap pointwise it won't be such a bad tactical move...I hope.


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I meant in reference to mandrakes btw

Talos has a pic in the book. Voidraven bomber is top secret with no pic just like the Stormraven. That keeps third parties from spinning something up that will actually look like what GW has planned. When GW finally releases theirs, everyone will likely drool and buy it whether or not they converted one or bought something completely different looking from a third party. Good marketing strategy.

catharsix wrote:

PS-I think I saw a pic of the art from the new book of the Talos - was that on this thread, or elsewhere?

It was posted by Kroothawk somewhere in one of these threads. It looks like a giant spikey scorpion-wraithlord type thing. Looks pretty cool, I think.

What no one actually knows is that GW is the 5th Chaos God and they feed on the emotions of angst against GW's many actually annoying policies which is expressed by complaining about the conspiracy thoery that GW even knows what is good to play with in 40k and then nerfing it to sell more stuff. Luckily for this fledgling god people love to complain(and rightly so, GW has been screwing them for 2 decades now) about just about anything and have the correct amount of angst to wrack up epic post counts.


One clear example of nerfing was when transports got boned in 4th because they were too good in 3rd and so people had to mount all of their models on horses instead... wait a minute... I think they just nerf things they think are too good and in a heavy and off handed fashion. But this is too much thinking for me so I will now accuse GW of conspiracy.

If Disintegrators were S6 or Heavy 4, I would be all over them, but for now, they're just sorta meh. They do, at least, negate FNP, but at S5, they just don't do enough against Marines, MCs, the sort of thing that I would want to target with them. Every other army I can gun down with Splinter Cannons, so the Dissies really lack a purpose that can't be accomplished elsewhere.

Well for MC's you could just used poisoned weaponry, and at least with S5 MEQ's will be wounded on 3+.

Of course I'm trying to be optimistic here

D.P. Gumby wrote:Is there anyone out there that is okay with the new mandrakes btw? They aren't as awesome as we may have hoped but I feel like they have plenty of potential if used correctly.

I love the new mandrakes, people don't like them because they are not overpowered i guess (every thing has to have power weapons i guess or it sucks). The thing people forget is the object of the game is not to destroy all of your opponents units, its to accomplish objectives. Which is why mandrakes are great with their infiltrate and 5++ save, and their weapon causes pinning! I will use them in my competitive list.

BrassScorpion wrote:Talos has a pic in the book. Voidraven bomber is top secret with no pic just like the Stormraven. That keeps third parties from spinning something up that will actually look like what GW has planned. When GW finally releases theirs, everyone will likely drool and buy it whether or not they converted one or bought something completely different looking from a third party. Good marketing strategy.

Or, maybe, just maybe, as they haven't designed the model at that stage, they don't want to trap themselves into a corner where they end up releasing a model that looks nothing like the concept art, which would no doubt lead to just as much complaining on the internet. And anyway, what third party companies are designing models that are intended to be subsitutes for GW's larger vehicles? Obviously you have companies like Gamezone releasing Mournful (Blood) Knights and those Seeker type models and Chapterhouse with some conversion kits, but no one is out there making things that are deliberately meant to substitute Rhinos or "Thundercrow Dropships".

Also, on the subject of conspiracy theories.. People spend years after a codex is released complaining and moaning that a suitable unit is overpowered and that no other options are viable because it's so much better than the rest of the codex due to GW's incompetence in game design, then as soon as GW release an update that brings it back in line, they are accused of trying to sell models by nerfing the "mandatory" choices. It's another case of GW not being able to win either way and people who have been brought up to see conspiracy and plots everywhere reading too much into things.

I liked the older ones better...


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I liked the older ones better...

I think I'd be more into them if they either had more unique infiltrate rules like before or if their ranged attack got even stronger as they got tokens rather than getting FC, fearless, and FNP. Btw do they have Power through Pain?

Yes, as well as fleet, and stealth.

I do see Gwars point though - its a win/win for GW - they create 'diversity' in armylists and at the same time sell the minis 'no one' uses. That's generally why its better to just make a list using units you like irregardless of how 'broken' they are as every dog will have its day.

I'm just pondering how I make a voidraven bomber...

Phototoxin wrote:I do see Gwars point though - its a win/win for GW - they create 'diversity' in armylists and at the same time sell the minis 'no one' uses. That's generally why its better to just make a list using units you like irregardless of how 'broken' they are as every dog will have its day.

The other thing to remember is that the majority of gamers are more casual/less tournament orientated and do just buy models based on what they like the look of. Ten year old boys who go in with their parents to the store haven't spent a few hours researching Dakka and Warseer's tactics threads to plan their purchases in advance.

I'm just pondering how I make a voidraven bomber...

I'd probably start by aiming for something that was a bit like Forgeworld's Void Dragon, but applying the lines and design of the new jetbikes to the hull and wings. Maybe..

Another question - the WWP that blocks TLOS - what do we use to model it? I was thinking of a large flying base (so the centre is easily identifiable for measuring and putting some sort of foci/energy points along the circumference.

@ Gwar Know one you know used long fang I have 3 squads of them in different configs anti tank anti horde and anti marine and the other local players also used them.
I am looking forward to pasting my local de players there is one but I know there will me more when I get back to the store.

xowainx wrote:I'd probably start by aiming for something that was a bit like Forgeworld's Void Dragon, but applying the lines and design of the new jetbikes to the hull and wings. Maybe..

This was my thought exactly.