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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Steelcity

That's an incredibly powerful bonus for Ravenguard, especially when people realize that 8th is the Alpha Strike Edition and stop thinking assault is useful when most games at tournaments are ending turn 2 with the player that went first shooting the opponent off the board during their first turn.

Conscripts + commissar shuts down most CC armies for something like 120 pts.

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Regular Dakkanaut




Did folks really believe the game was going to be balanced for more than just the release?

Are games really ending by turn 2? It actually doesnt surprise me that much (deep striking 9 inches away with no scatter etc).
   
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Been Around the Block



Sweden

Yes, three out of the four games I have played with my SM so far was over before I had had my first turn. Yes, I did a few bad decisions when it came to deployment, but it wasn't a terrible deployment! Still, the game had already been decided without me moving a miniature. Tyranid big monsters with Onslaught and Swarmlord movement shenanigans, Tau deepstrikers and last week, an Elysian Drop Trooper list that had 11 command squad units with 4 x plasmas deepstriking. 88 overcharging plasma shots that hit on 3:s, rerolling 1:s... hurts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/17 16:35:01


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




So do folks really thing this is better than 7th?

Remove formations (and free rules), remove apocalypse units and 7th isnt bad. It was only all the additional money making schemes GW pushed that mucked up the game- which we will see shortly here in 8th as well.

I guess folks who wanted shorter games kind of got their wish, seems like setup and cleanup times are longer than game time now.
   
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Been Around the Block




sturguard wrote:
Did folks really believe the game was going to be balanced for more than just the release?

Are games really ending by turn 2? It actually doesnt surprise me that much (deep striking 9 inches away with no scatter etc).


Never had a game finish anytime before the actual end of the game.

Nice to see you (and others) jumping to conclusions before the book is even released. I am fairly convinced that the majority of whiners on forums don't actually play the game. That isn't to say that the SM codex is or isn't going to be balanced - we just don't know.

Worth noting that if the RG do use the infiltrate strategem to get up close then the -1 to hit will be far less effective. I still think it isn't the best option thematically because it encourages staying beyond 24" but there you go.
   
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Fixture of Dakka




sturguard wrote:
So do folks really thing this is better than 7th?

Remove formations (and free rules), remove apocalypse units and 7th isnt bad. It was only all the additional money making schemes GW pushed that mucked up the game- which we will see shortly here in 8th as well.

I guess folks who wanted shorter games kind of got their wish, seems like setup and cleanup times are longer than game time now.

Formations and LoW units were not the issue with 7th unless you were an Eldar player in denial.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Umbros wrote:
sturguard wrote:
Did folks really believe the game was going to be balanced for more than just the release?

Are games really ending by turn 2? It actually doesnt surprise me that much (deep striking 9 inches away with no scatter etc).


Never had a game finish anytime before the actual end of the game.

Nice to see you (and others) jumping to conclusions before the book is even released. I am fairly convinced that the majority of whiners on forums don't actually play the game. That isn't to say that the SM codex is or isn't going to be balanced - we just don't know.

Worth noting that if the RG do use the infiltrate strategem to get up close then the -1 to hit will be far less effective. I still think it isn't the best option thematically because it encourages staying beyond 24" but there you go.


Majority of my games end turn 3 to roll offs.

etherway im pretty sure you guys are getting off topic.

super stoked about the grav chute model and game play wise.
   
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 Kirasu wrote:
That's an incredibly powerful bonus for Ravenguard, especially when people realize that 8th is the Alpha Strike Edition and stop thinking assault is useful when most games at tournaments are ending turn 2 with the player that went first shooting the opponent off the board during their first turn.

Conscripts + commissar shuts down most CC armies for something like 120 pts.


If people played with decent tables and terrain, whole armies wouldn't be getting shot of the table turn 1.

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Dakka Veteran




Yes. Paying command points for a strategem that (at least partially) undermines your armies in-built strength seems like something few people would do.

Reminds me of 5th Edition Space Wolves, when the rules writer "made regular infantry cheaper so people could afford the cool Space Wolf Hero characters" and everyone ended up spamming Long Fangs and MSU Las-Plas Razorbacks. Good intentions, but a misunderstanding how incentives in the rules guide list building and game tactics.


So now Ultramarines are the hit-and-run chapter and Raven Guard the defensive gun line. The new ITC meta is here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/17 16:47:34


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Well maybe that's true for some, but I have been playing 40k since 1992, so you'd be wrong. I actually don't really care one way or the other how 40k pans out, it just really isnt 40k any longer. Its more AoS and designed to be a 30 minute game more akin to Clash Royale or Magic, than the older variants.

I have moved over to 30k with the hopes that they keep the 7th edition rules going and if not, no biggie, I have the 7th edition rulebook and will continue to use that. I don't go to tournaments any longer but am curious as to how things are going.

I love GW models, I have enjoyed their games for 30 years, but let's face it, they have never been balanced, ever and there is no incentive for them to balance the game now. People loved the 7th edition formations with free rules- that is until the end when everyone called it "bloat". You'll see just as many free rules and formations (now called detachments) as you did in 7th edition. Now I am sure you can sit down with your opponent and design lists to have a semi balanced game, but you could do that in 7th too. Going to a tournament and hoping for a balanced game, well, that might be a different matter however.

And Umbros, there's no need to be condescending towards people, especially with your opinions. We have plenty of proof that GW games have never been balanced, about 30 years of it.
   
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4th Obelisk On The Right

Its cool but with deep strikers landing within 12" and vehicles being fairly quick in most cases, RG will see their -1 bonus for about 1 turn for some of their units an nothing for others.

I mean Tau can bring an entire army that forces -1s and -2s but nobody seems to care about that. So I will say as of right now the rule looks strong, sounds strong, not all that strong.

 
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I don't like the Raven Guard tactic because it doesn't seem to promote what Raven guard are really about. But I'll reserve judgement to see what restrictions there are.

It's the first time it actually has shown what they're about.

They're not "the jump pack Chapter". It's about time that nonsense died.
I meant it supports gun lines and not stealth/ambush tactics.

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 BrotherGecko wrote:
Its cool but with deep strikers landing within 12" and vehicles being fairly quick in most cases, RG will see their -1 bonus for about 1 turn for some of their units an nothing for others.

I mean Tau can bring an entire army that forces -1s and -2s but nobody seems to care about that. So I will say as of right now the rule looks strong, sounds strong, not all that strong.


This. Since 8th dropped, I have been able to bring an army that was completely -1, if not -2, to hit across the board (Shadowsun, Stealth Suits, Ghostkeels, etc.). And it didn't disappear when you got close, and hell it even applies in CC. This has been a thing since the Indices dropped, and never once have I seen anyone complaining about how broken and powerful this list would be or those units are. Is this CT strong? Absolutely. Is it broken? I would say no. You'll be able to make some strong lists using this and the strategem that lets you pay CP to infiltrate units, but nothing unbeatable. Assault armies don't care about this, and shooty armies should be bringing enough dakka to handle an infantry-based SM army (given that this doesn't work on vehicles) though it will take a bit longer to kill off.

The sky hasn't fallen just yet, all that's happened is that CTs actually matter now and will factor into your list building. Since every army is getting them now rather than just SM, there shouldn't be any major issues.

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 Crimson wrote:
 d-usa wrote:


Yeah, somehow the whole "hide in the shadows, strike fast and quick, retreat to the shadows, survive to fight another day" thing became "JUMP JUMP JUMP".

Yeah, jump infantry is a thing that supports the Hit-and-Run strategy, but over time Raven Guard became typecast as non-vampire Blood Angels.

I think the new rule takes the "herp derp we are fast and jumpy" aspect of their tactics and replaces it with a much more appropriate "I know they are out there, they have hit us before, they are going to hit us again, what's that in the shadow, fire over there, I can't see them but I know they are there" flavor that focuses on the effect their tactics have on the enemy.

Except this tactic supports long-ranged gunlines rather than hit-and-run tactics.

Yeah, on the surface it sounds like a nice bonus but...

I'm not saying my way was right, but as I envisioned the chapter, I used to lean heavily on Deep Striking my old Raven Guard army. Yes, Assault Squads, but also Deep Striking Landspeeders, Teleporting Terminators, as well as Tac Squads and Dreadnaughts in Drop Pods. Get in my opponent's face as quick as I could. This new Chapter Tactic won't support those sort of lists anymore. Now I'm not sure if I want to retool my RG, or just look into another chapter?
   
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Oklahoma

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I don't like the Raven Guard tactic because it doesn't seem to promote what Raven guard are really about. But I'll reserve judgement to see what restrictions there are.

It's the first time it actually has shown what they're about.

They're not "the jump pack Chapter". It's about time that nonsense died.
I meant it supports gun lines and not stealth/ambush tactics.


And Raven Guard, in canon if not in always in playstyle, fit very well with the new rule. "Ima jumping in your face" is not a stealth/ambush tactic.

Gunlines firing from the shadows and supporting other units is Raven Guard in practice.
The assault wing being able to charge rapidly by getting rerolls on jump pack charges is Raven Guard.
Charging rapidly enough to prevent overwatch is Raven Guard.

A "everyone jump pack all the time" army exists, it's called Blood Angels. But Raven Guard have always been depicted as an army that strikes rapidly and strikes from the shadows, but also an army that uses all tools at their disposal. Including big guns shooting from the shadows that you can't see well enough to fire back, and while distracted you get charged by other units. Raven Guard are sneaky, but they are also about synergy. They were never a one trick pony, and I like that the rules represent that.

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 GI_Redshirt wrote:
 BrotherGecko wrote:
Its cool but with deep strikers landing within 12" and vehicles being fairly quick in most cases, RG will see their -1 bonus for about 1 turn for some of their units an nothing for others.

I mean Tau can bring an entire army that forces -1s and -2s but nobody seems to care about that. So I will say as of right now the rule looks strong, sounds strong, not all that strong.


This. Since 8th dropped, I have been able to bring an army that was completely -1, if not -2, to hit across the board (Shadowsun, Stealth Suits, Ghostkeels, etc.). And it didn't disappear when you got close, and hell it even applies in CC. This has been a thing since the Indices dropped, and never once have I seen anyone complaining about how broken and powerful this list would be or those units are. Is this CT strong? Absolutely. Is it broken? I would say no. You'll be able to make some strong lists using this and the strategem that lets you pay CP to infiltrate units, but nothing unbeatable. Assault armies don't care about this, and shooty armies should be bringing enough dakka to handle an infantry-based SM army (given that this doesn't work on vehicles) though it will take a bit longer to kill off.

The sky hasn't fallen just yet, all that's happened is that CTs actually matter now and will factor into your list building. Since every army is getting them now rather than just SM, there shouldn't be any major issues.



Couldn't agree more with this. As mentioned above, they seem strong but not broken. Wait for the rest of the CTs to come about before declaring everything is broken and flipping the table.

There are lots of ways around this CT in particular and even plenty of ways to avoid the Ultramarine one too. Other factions or units have these abilities already, some of which are more powerful than the CTs anyway.
   
Made in fr
Omnipotent Necron Overlord





From the most twisted corners of your psyche

Yeah, Raven guard are not an assault army. They are an ambush army. Its just that jump packs were a part of their ambush tactics, which is why people (wrongfully) associate them with jump pack assaults.
RG were about sudden strikes from the shadows and covert ops.
Having a hit modifier represents that well.
If you want an assault army go play Blood Angels or Space Wolves.

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Longtime Dakkanaut






I don't think the basic game structure even allows for proper implementation of a hit and run mechanic, the Tau jump packs being the closest exception.

A constant defensive bonus granted to a unit that manoeuvres to stay at a certain range from an enemy is as good a representation as any other.
   
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 His Master's Voice wrote:
I don't think the basic game structure even allows for proper implementation of a hit and run mechanic,


Ultramarines certainly got very good at it (or at the very least a lot better than Raven Guard).
   
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Courageous Space Marine Captain






Wonderwolf wrote:
 His Master's Voice wrote:
I don't think the basic game structure even allows for proper implementation of a hit and run mechanic,


Ultramarines certainly got very good at it (or at the very least a lot better than Raven Guard).


Hit and run tactics isnt the same thing has hit and run 7th edition. (getting into CC then leaving to do something else)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/17 17:21:33


 
   
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Riverside CA

I think the Raven Guard CT would work with Incerptor Squad using the 12"-18" hit and run tactic.

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Left Coast

I was looking at the sprues for the new First Strike 'Easy to Build" starter and all of the models have tabs for slotta bases. Can anyone confirm GW is packaging 32mm slottas in that kit? I've got a bunch of Genestealers that I want to put on 32s, so I'm hoping GW does a general release of 32mm slotta bases.

   
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Dakka Veteran




 Desubot wrote:
Wonderwolf wrote:
 His Master's Voice wrote:
I don't think the basic game structure even allows for proper implementation of a hit and run mechanic,


Ultramarines certainly got very good at it (or at the very least a lot better than Raven Guard).


Hit and run tactics isnt the same thing has hit and run 7th edition. (getting into CC then leaving to do something else)



In the abstraction of a tabletop game, the 7th Edition rule and the UM chapter tactics give you a good verisimilitude or "feel" of "going in, doing damage, retreating before retaliation, unconcerned with holding territory".

New Raven Guard tactics will likely give you a good verisimilitude of a defensive army dug in and hard to move, unless you get close and personal.

It isn't war simulation. It's eliciting a game play feel the emulates it with plastic toys.
   
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Champaign, Illinois

 Fango wrote:
I was looking at the sprues for the new First Strike 'Easy to Build" starter and all of the models have tabs for slotta bases. Can anyone confirm GW is packaging 32mm slottas in that kit? I've got a bunch of Genestealers that I want to put on 32s, so I'm hoping GW does a general release of 32mm slotta bases.

I got a reiver kit, it came with slotted 32mm bases.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/17 17:29:11


 
   
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Dakka Veteran






 Blood Hawk wrote:
 Fango wrote:
I was looking at the sprues for the new First Strike 'Easy to Build" starter and all of the models have tabs for slotta bases. Can anyone confirm GW is packaging 32mm slottas in that kit? I've got a bunch of Genestealers that I want to put on 32s, so I'm hoping GW does a general release of 32mm slotta bases.

I got a reiver kit, it came with slotted 32mm bases.


I got the individual Imperial boxes as well as First Strike. All 32mm bases are slotted.
   
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Forgive me if this was covered earlier and I just missed it, but does the new SM Codex offer any information on the new "Primaris Founding(?)" chapters?

I don't really want to mix up my old school SM figures and the new Primaris figures in my existing RG army. What I'd like to do is start a whole new a "pure" Primaris chapter. From what I've read I think these exist, but do we have any info on color schemes, symbols, or chapter "personality" yet?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/17 17:35:23


 
   
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Florence, KY

I believe it was mentioned they're using these bases...

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/BLOOD-BOWL-BASES-CLAM-2017

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armagedon

Ha awesome, started building a stealthy chapter with dark imperial and first strike box was planning on adding more inceptors and reivers, along with a couple of gunship and maybe scout snipers. Good to see my army has the pretty perfect trait to match the build. Stocked for 8th still it all seems excellent. As for people getting tabled turn 2 try terrain lol.
Or jokes a side. Me n my friends play 40k n AoS as follows: Roll to see who deploys first then alternate units till done then roll to see who goes first.
Player 1: movement phase, psychic phase. Player 2: movement phase, psychic phase. Player 1: fires with a unit. Player 2: fires with a unit. Back n forth till everyone has shot. Player 1: charges with a unit. Player 2 charges with a unit. Back n forth till everyone has charged. Resolve charges as normal. Resolve moral as normal. Next turn: swap who goes first. Repeat for 4-6 turns. Imo game is much more fun n fair this way. No one waits ages to play or gets shot off the table based on a single dice roll. Sorry for off topic but it's worth trying the game like this imo.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/17 17:46:05


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Sioux Falls, SD

This was mentioned upthread, but Reivers have the Assault symbol on them. This isn't the first time an Elites unit had that symbol (Assault Centurions had it as well and they were Elite), so I know someone said Guilliman changed things, but he really didn't.

Back on topic. I am glad Raven Guard finally got some actual fluffy rules. Their Chapter Tactics and the Strategem that was revealed really fit their identity as the Stealthy Chapter. Blood Angels are the Jump Pack Chapter (and the WE GO FAST Chapter). Raven Guard Scout Snipers are going to be pretty sweet now. Prepare to see a lot of them. Hopefully my Crimson Fists get something just as fluffy. How does one represent the never back down and hold the line chapters?

Anyway, the prices are in line with what I expected, if not cheaper. The Reivers are probably expensive due to their weapon and backpack options. The Aggressors being only 50 US$ makes me worry that the kit won't have many options (Flamer fists have been mentioned, and it seems like the missiles could be swapped for something else).

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