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Holy hell those are strong. Inching closer to hoping for a "If everyone is broken no one is" approach now.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

 Crimson wrote:


Wait, what? This is insane!

Nah, don't worry. It's going to be balanced, like, totally. And all chapter tactics and other armies' special rules will be equally powerful. No need to worry...

Its not that bad. If they are 12" away they are within rapid fire range without the hit penalty.

Reread its more than 12" away, not less than, and I'd say a -1 penalty to enemy shooting is pretty damn good. Defintely better than the smurfs tactic.

Daedalus81 wrote:

changemod wrote:
Yeah that chapter tactic, a lot like the ultramarine one, seems only tangentially relevant. It fits the chapter playstyle, but is a really indirect way of doing so that more directly suits castling up a heavy gunline.

More weird than anything.

Assuming they can take devastators.

I don't see why they couldn't. The post specifically references devastators as part of the Raven Guard and they're ostensibly a codex chapter in the fluff as well. While I suppose it's possible that GW will borrow FW's schtick and come up with variant force org limitations and benefits based on a Rites of War equivalent, I think it's unlikely.

Eh, it depends on the situation. If you are against an assault army the UM ability would be more useful. If you against a shooty army the RG ability would see more play.
To me it looks balanced.

I like the over reaction to the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic when people couldn't read that one part about vehicles.

I like it. They did say they wanted Chapter Tactics to apply as a general whole to units though I will miss the small Jump Pack bonus.

 warboss wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

changemod wrote:
Yeah that chapter tactic, a lot like the ultramarine one, seems only tangentially relevant. It fits the chapter playstyle, but is a really indirect way of doing so that more directly suits castling up a heavy gunline.

More weird than anything.

Assuming they can take devastators.

I don't see why they couldn't. The post specifically references devastators as part of the Raven Guard and they're ostensibly a codex chapter in the fluff as well. While I suppose it's possible that GW will borrow FW's schtick and come up with variant force org limitations and benefits based on a Rites of War equivalent, I think it's unlikely.

It's possible. The index does give a list of units a chapter may take, so it could be that the Raven guard might be missing some options.

Can't even imagine what kinds of special rules, relics, and stratagems Chaos Space Marines and Death Guard will need to get in order to compete with Ultramarines and Raven Guard, especially considering that a lot of CSM and DG units are already (as is ever the case) unfortunately a bit overpriced.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 warboss wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

changemod wrote:
Yeah that chapter tactic, a lot like the ultramarine one, seems only tangentially relevant. It fits the chapter playstyle, but is a really indirect way of doing so that more directly suits castling up a heavy gunline.

More weird than anything.

Assuming they can take devastators.

I don't see why they couldn't. The post specifically references devastators as part of the Raven Guard and they're ostensibly a codex chapter in the fluff as well. While I suppose it's possible that GW will borrow FW's schtick and come up with variant force org limitations and benefits based on a Rites of War equivalent, I think it's unlikely.

It's possible. The index does give a list of units a chapter may take, so it could be that the Raven guard might be missing some options.

The article specifically references RG devs. There is no way GW would just remove them from the list of possible units (even 6th/7th edition pants on head stupid GW at the height of Kirby we own the shape of an arrow hubris).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I like the over reaction to the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic when people couldn't read that one part about vehicles.

I like it. They did say they wanted Chapter Tactics to apply as a general whole to units though I will miss the small Jump Pack bonus.

I won't. It was stupid and unthematic for the Raven Guard as a whole.

For Shrike and his boys, it's appropriate.

I don't like the Raven Guard tactic because it doesn't seem to promote what Raven guard are really about. But I'll reserve judgement to see what restrictions there are.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I don't like the Raven Guard tactic because it doesn't seem to promote what Raven guard are really about. But I'll reserve judgement to see what restrictions there are.

It's the first time it actually has shown what they're about.

They're not "the jump pack Chapter". It's about time that nonsense died.

Anyone else feel a little like... here we go

bloat alarm bells, broken untested combo alarm bells ringing

 Latro_ wrote:
Anyone else feel a little like... here we go

bloat alarm bells, broken untested combo alarm bells ringing

Yes, but I hope it's a fake alarm. (Yet, knowing better, it probably isn't. Ah, good old centurion devastators... ere we go again)

 Kanluwen wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I don't like the Raven Guard tactic because it doesn't seem to promote what Raven guard are really about. But I'll reserve judgement to see what restrictions there are.

It's the first time it actually has shown what they're about.

They're not "the jump pack Chapter". It's about time that nonsense died.

Yeah, somehow the whole "hide in the shadows, strike fast and quick, retreat to the shadows, survive to fight another day" thing became "JUMP JUMP JUMP".

Yeah, jump infantry is a thing that supports the Hit-and-Run strategy, but over time Raven Guard became typecast as non-vampire Blood Angels.

I think the new rule takes the "herp derp we are fast and jumpy" aspect of their tactics and replaces it with a much more appropriate "I know they are out there, they have hit us before, they are going to hit us again, what's that in the shadow, fire over there, I can't see them but I know they are there" flavor that focuses on the effect their tactics have on the enemy.

Prices for the first week are out there.

SM codex - $50
SM data cards- $15
Primaris agresors - $50
Reavers - $60
Redemptor Dread - $65
All prices US$.

Tau armies be like " dang wish I took more markerlights "

 d-usa wrote:


Yeah, somehow the whole "hide in the shadows, strike fast and quick, retreat to the shadows, survive to fight another day" thing became "JUMP JUMP JUMP".

Yeah, jump infantry is a thing that supports the Hit-and-Run strategy, but over time Raven Guard became typecast as non-vampire Blood Angels.

I think the new rule takes the "herp derp we are fast and jumpy" aspect of their tactics and replaces it with a much more appropriate "I know they are out there, they have hit us before, they are going to hit us again, what's that in the shadow, fire over there, I can't see them but I know they are there" flavor that focuses on the effect their tactics have on the enemy.

Except this tactic supports long-ranged gunlines rather than hit-and-run tactics.

 Latro_ wrote:
Anyone else feel a little like... here we go

bloat alarm bells, broken untested combo alarm bells ringing

Yes. Curious that the LVO/ITC-playtested edition seems (at first glance, hopefully it'll be wrong) to be heading for the dumpster faster than even 7th.

But worse is, I feel, the false incentives given by the Chapter Tactics. Seems to make/strongly favour Raven Guard as a long range heavy weapon gunline, not unlike 5th Edition Space Wolves Codex turned Wolves into a Las-Plas Gunline mono-build army.

Doesn't inspire confidence.

 Crusaderobr wrote:
Tau armies be like " dang wish I took more markerlights "

Basically no. Tau Players are like "I've given up already" or "why would I care, I get to deep strike my R'Varna within 12".

IG might struggle a bit to hit ravenguard. But SM infantry shooting isn't much of a threat to IG in return, so they won't be too fussed. Just whip the conscripts to within 12".

Hahahah what? So I have to buy units to give very nearby units -1 to hit with my Tyranids. Crowy McCrowface Marines get that for free??? Aha. Aha. Great.

 Latro_ wrote:
Anyone else feel a little like... here we go

bloat alarm bells, broken untested combo alarm bells ringing

Yup. This is what I've been waiting for. If the Indexes were theoretically balanced, arbitrarily giving one army a -17% chance to be hit has to upset the balance. We'll see. I'm just passively assuming that the armies with Codexes will be at a higher power tier than those without. I'm half considering just not playing until next year when all the rules are out. Either that or instituting a no-Codexes unless both players have one house rule. Depends on how things pan out.

 Crimson wrote:

 d-usa wrote:


Yeah, somehow the whole "hide in the shadows, strike fast and quick, retreat to the shadows, survive to fight another day" thing became "JUMP JUMP JUMP".

Yeah, jump infantry is a thing that supports the Hit-and-Run strategy, but over time Raven Guard became typecast as non-vampire Blood Angels.

I think the new rule takes the "herp derp we are fast and jumpy" aspect of their tactics and replaces it with a much more appropriate "I know they are out there, they have hit us before, they are going to hit us again, what's that in the shadow, fire over there, I can't see them but I know they are there" flavor that focuses on the effect their tactics have on the enemy.

Except this tactic supports long-ranged gunlines rather than hit-and-run tactics.

It's nice for Raptors. They like to hide in the underbrush and snipe people, right?

I didn't have a good feeling about chapter tactics the moment the Ultramarine one was released. And I don't mean balance-wise. That little hope never bloomed in me in the first place. But the whole let's run away and shoot'em thing doesn't seem like an Ultramarine thing to me. Yeah yeah, 5th ed Marines and all that, but it's an approach I'd associate more with Raven Guard or White Scars. Morale bonus, why would Ultramrines be more stalwart than, say, Imperial Fists?

And here we are with something that could work for Raven Guard, but since it does incentivize gunline tactics, it strikes me more like an Imperial Fists thing (as in they know better than anyone else how to use cover/fortify a bush).

I am actually looking forward to more teasers now, just to see what the game designers do with the other chapters.

Regarding the: "instituting a no-Codexes unless both players have one house rule". Now you know how we who played SoB felt about formations in 7th!

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Hahahah what? So I have to buy units to give very nearby units -1 to hit with my Tyranids. Crowy McCrowface Marines get that for free??? Aha. Aha. Great.

For now you do, yeah.

Who knows with the codex. You might get something for one of the Hive Fleets that makes them immune to Overwatch.

That grappling hook is officially the second flimsiest part I've ever seen on a GW model.

The first is the Slaanesh chariot with 6 whips.

So, the counter to Raven Guard will be Dark Reapers and Maugan Ra (they ignore all to-hit modifiers). Got it. (jots down notes).

While I think it seems quite strong, I also enjoy that the two major tactical strengths of the Raven Guard are in opposition to each other.

1) Tough to hit over 12"

vs.

2) Pay CP to infiltrate units (which seems to be the gist if I read it right)...meaning you're placing them quite a bit closer to enemy units - where they're less likely to benefit from the initial chapter tactic.

I do think that Raven Guard devastators in cover sitting in the backfield will be a tough nut to crack.

Chikout wrote:
Prices for the first week are out there.

SM codex - $50
SM data cards- $15
Primaris agresors - $50
Reavers - $60
Redemptor Dread - $65
All prices US$.

Codex as expected, Reivers as expected. Given that, we may actually hope for a slightly lower hardcover price for future codices if the "almost as big as the rulebook" Marine codex is cheaper than the 7th ed one.

 Latro_ wrote:
Anyone else feel a little like... here we go

bloat alarm bells, broken untested combo alarm bells ringing

Firstly, I don't think a strategem, warlord trait, and army mechanic per subfaction constitute bloat personally. YMMV. That said... anyone who thinks GW got rid of dozens of $50+ USD books for any reason beyond the ability to sell you new dozens of new $50 books is naive. No where did GW state that they'd keep the level of detail at the get you by 3rd edition rulebook style index entries. I fully expect them to come up with similar rules for various craftworlds, ork waaghs, septs, tombworlds, forgeworld, etc. They're simply playing musical chairs with where they put the rules (dozens of unit stat sheets instead of once in the rulebook for example).

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Hahahah what? So I have to buy units to give very nearby units -1 to hit with my Tyranids. Crowy McCrowface Marines get that for free??? Aha. Aha. Great.

For now you do, yeah.

Who knows with the codex. You might get something for one of the Hive Fleets that makes them immune to Overwatch.

It's fine I just wouldn't take any guns vs Raven Guard. :-D

 Latro_ wrote:
Anyone else feel a little like... here we go

bloat alarm bells, broken untested combo alarm bells ringing

Ah yes,

Now is the time we scream and babyrage about Codex Creep with only the very first codex in the new edition.