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 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm not exactly insulting anti or pro plug suit people i just think that argument got really petty and overblown.

New Sisters if shown nearly at release date would just cause a massive crap storm the likes of which plug suits would seem like a mere nuisance.

I just find it interesting because you'd think Sisters players would almost be happy to get anything new. I realize you can't get too happy about what you get but being too angry about what you do get is a bit much.

Forgive me if i use your post as a springboard. If it means anything I pitched a massive fit about Warhammer Fantasy going kaboom myself. just not here on this site, as a fan of both Tomb Kings and Bretonnians on some level (HAIL SETTRA!).

as for the plug argument, yeah, as a Squabble it's gone on pretty long, but then again, waiting this long for something like this will bring in some scrutiny regardless. and to be fair, in the long run squabbles about shaped plastic as a whole are silly. .(even if i utterly despise those plugs)

but frankly, while as a whole group perhaps they are happy to finally get some attention, the attention is incredibly long overdue to the point of being utterly comical and in my case I'm not going to "just be happy" about it. last time this army got a range retouch of any kind was again, 14 years (the release of the current repentia). I feel like that keeps being sideswiped, what with how often i see "this model is sculpted/looks so much better than the old one." with all of these updated models.

sure it does. it ought to considering we moved two different types of build material, who knows how many processes, and that much a time period since. the models on a purely mechanical level are better whether or not you like them, and I'm one of the ones who REALLY doesn't (in the repentia's case). but I'm not about to just sit here and not say my piece when i become aware of something that rankles me after having to wait this long (like a model quality, or plugs). probably part of why this is charged so much anyway and every little thing gets nitpicked, because of how long this actually took to come about. I know i gave up hope for this a few years ago, and yet here we are.

Theres only so long before excitement about something can turn into " oh? about time." and id say this is one of them. We'll see how the dice falls in the end, but the verbal swords are gettin' drawn on the way.

Excellent points, Bdrone. I will only add that, over the course of this long wait, not a few of us have been told that Sisters are too boring or stupid to deserve to keep existing, or if they do get an update then they need to change because they are so dumb, and so there are years and years of argument behind this thread by fans of Sisters who just want their favorite faction, in the original form, updated with new models, without any conditions of, well they need to earn it by incorporating this or that change. So even the little changes can feel like big deals. Especially when some are arguing beyond whether or not a certain retconned detail is wise but flat out saying it’s not even a retcon. “We have always been at war with Eastasia!”

I know you guys have been through a lot but GW usually updates things nowadays when they put out a new kit (leaving the debate on whether or not they're updated aside - I think they obviously are). So, probably best to brace for a few more changes

Overall, I'm pretty stoked with the recent kits they've been putting out (across all lines) so I think there's reason to be optimistic

Part of the issue is, we’re VERY braced. Braced to the point of being flat out entrenched. I didn’t post about the new Repentia at all for days to give myself time to get used to them.

I mean, I stopped posting just cause I really lost interest in the argument. I'll probably just come back only when the next update is out.

 Manchu wrote:
Part of the issue is, we’re VERY braced. Braced to the point of being flat out entrenched. I didn’t post about the new Repentia at all for days to give myself time to get used to them.

*gestures to the hole Bdrone is sitting in*

you ain't kiddin' there. but then im a frequent pessimist. while i wasn't in forums about it, i can wager to much of the being told the kind of stuff you said earlier Manchu must have just been beyond aggravating and set up your positions. for me, i wanted them as close to the original with the mechanical improvement because of my interest of religious trappings in 40k, hoping as much of it as possible would translate. in that i could have chosen other ports, but here's where i showed up, and i expected the Repentia model to bug me, stating awhile back it as one of my "make or breaks". just not quite on this scale. but i haven't been in this like some others, I mostly just watch from a hole, except times like now.

so, i wonder whats next on the touch up parade, or will they show something new. or some new rule reveals... even if my hearts not as in it, it's still worth sending out the eye.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


And as I pointed out a long time back, go pick up Daemonifuge, it's reprinted, it's illustrated. Have fun. You'll find no plugs on Stern in the sections where she's out of her armor. To further edify you, I'll cruise around and see if there's some pages from it we can post here.

Like here ?

Spoiler:

She doesn't have plugs on her showed skin, indeed.

There's a page where she's totally naked. but that will do. So, next will come the demand for it in a Codex, because this is BL. Or he'll start on the 'but you can't see the back of her neck' which is why I thought of the naked pic, but it's not dakka friendly.

Ok. So now we have official art that shows both. That establishes the inconsistancy GW usually displays in their cannon. I'm also going to point out that the pages shown don't show her knees, or the back of her uncovered head/upper back.


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 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

It is not official GW material, it is licenced material just like the the computer games, Funko Pop marines and Warhammer leggings. Whatever one thinks about the quality of any of those, it is pretty clear that they're no on same level of canonicity than direct GW stuff.

This argument was slain LONG AGO at hands of none other than Jervis. Yes, they are *just* as canon as any Codex. Direct form GW's mouth. Please keep your Headcanon out of this.

Prove it.

I also find it odd that you would turn to Jervis after you decided to throw him under the bus.

 Mmmpi wrote:
I'm also going to point out that the pages shown don't show her knees, or the back of her uncovered head/upper back.

There's lots more nakedness in that, feel free to buy a copy. That was the parts which were dakka friendly. (Which says a lot that a Dark Eldar arena is one of the more 'dakka freindly' portions of that Graphic Novel.)


And, just, FYI, the mods have made it plain that we're to drop this.

 Manchu wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I'm trying to find the 'many' here with your depiction of just one Repentia in one image.

We are being trolled. That’s the generous explanation.

And yet, you as a mod don't do anything about it?

Maybe he's not the one trolling.


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 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Cover of With Hunter codex. And of course various cybernetics are super common on sisters, starting from the iconic cover of the very first codex.

That's like saying they should be common among gaurdsmen because cybernetics are common there. Not all cybernetics are equally common.


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 Manchu wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I'm trying to find the 'many' here with your depiction of just one Repentia in one image.

We are being trolled. That’s the generous explanation.

I'm at that conclusion too. I'm just gonna block both of them.

Which, hilariously, makes 10 people in the entire history of dakka that I've blocked. They're in good company.

BTW: Should we mention that back in the old days guys like Ross Watson and co actually posted here on dakka? I didn't have people go 'we don't believe you' on the subject of writing gak for anyone when those guys still posted here.

I want to point out two things. If you block them, you immediately concede the argument to them. They've been making solid points this whole time, and once you block them, you won't be able to counter any future points they make.

Second, "The old days" aren't now. Those days haven't existed for almost two decades.


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 Manchu wrote:
Baron, did you know that all Sisters have spikes implanted into their scalps? It’s just that in 99.99999% of the OFFICIAL illustrations you can’t see it.

Show us something that has them with spikes in their scalps.


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 Manchu wrote:
Hey if you want to lob more personal attacks at me, please do it on the Nuts & Bolts board. It’s off topic here and will be deleted going forward. Thanks!

You've been rolling in the mud with us. It's going to happen.

 Manchu wrote:
Especially when some are arguing beyond whether or not a certain retconned detail is wise but flat out saying it’s not even a retcon. “We have always been at war with Eastasia!”

I just got pissed off between them saying that HBMC's work didn't matter (not that he and I did not have differences over it, but...) and calling me a liar. That did not help matters. Particularly when all you have to do is open to the credits page and read my fething name.



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 Mmmpi wrote:

You've been rolling in the mud with us. It's going to happen.

Hrrrm. In your future, a ban I sense. Yellow, in case you've never seen it, is his Mod Voice. Which means that you obey.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Especially when some are arguing beyond whether or not a certain retconned detail is wise but flat out saying it’s not even a retcon. “We have always been at war with Eastasia!”

I just got pissed off between them saying that HBMC's work didn't matter (not that he and I did not have differences over it, but...) and calling me a liar. That did not help matters. Particularly when all you have to do is open to the credits page and read my fething name.

Where is it listed? Considering I have no idea what Baronlveagh's real name is, I've had no reason to believe you. Just like you have no reason to believe that I'm European Royalty, based on that picture of Captain Caveman by my name. Furthermore, I still have no way of knowing that you're telling the truth if you give me a name that happens to be in the credits section, because I have no way of knowing if you're actually that person.

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 Mmmpi wrote:

You've been rolling in the mud with us. It's going to happen.

Hrrrm. In your future, a ban I sense.

A huge difference between a criticism and an observation. Not that you've shown the ability to differentiate between those in this thread.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

I just got pissed off between them saying that HBMC's work didn't matter

It was about the licenced material in general and not directed to any one person.

and calling me a liar. That did not help matters. Particularly when all you have to do is open to the credits page and read my fething name.

I asked you to clarify what you meant by implying that you had/do/will work for GW and you refused to do so.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
There will be no FSM/Doc Thunder style brawls here.

FSM?
Female Space Marines?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
There will be no FSM/Doc Thunder style brawls here.

FSM?
Female Space Marines?

Speak not the Words, lest the Mods fall upon us.

 Mmmpi wrote:

Where is it listed? Considering I have no idea what Baronlveagh's real name is, I've had no reason to believe you. Just like you have no reason to believe that I'm European Royalty, based on that picture of Captain Caveman by my name. Furthermore, I still have no way of knowing that you're telling the truth if you give me a name that happens to be in the credits section, because I have no way of knowing if you're actually that person.

Which is unfortunately, the Crux of the issue. Before, in the long long ago, we had guys like Ross Watson, etc posting under their own names. If you had a question about if *I* was worked on something you could just ask. Unfortunately, that's largely stopped being a thing, due a variety of reasons. I think Warp Rift was the only thing to ever credit me in an article as 'BaronIveagh', and IIRC that was an article on the age of various ship classes in fluff at the time and what classes were succeeded by what, when. (IE before HH changed them all).

 Manchu wrote:
Part of the issue is, we’re VERY braced. Braced to the point of being flat out entrenched. I didn’t post about the new Repentia at all for days to give myself time to get used to them.

Haha, that's fair

Hopefully they'll give another promising reveal soon to help folks dig out a little

This spiraled pretty hard.

The interpretation thing is an important point.

This "wave" of Sisters' releases is all one big interpretation of the army as a whole, from the rules and fluff in the codex to the kind of armour, hairstyles and bionics they have.

Anybody familiar with any kind of creative process should understand that art, design and lore being changed in subsequent iterations should be expected. You don't have to welcome it, but cripes, don't be surprised that a few things have changed in the intervening decades since the last release!

Those changes being "good" or "bad" is entirely subjective. You wanted it to stay exactly the same? Welp, you were the one person that was absolutely guaranteed to be disappointed, to the point that your complaints actually end up looking kind of silly.

Love to chat more but I need to go and get my Model T warmed up. Sure, the dealership was trying to convince me to switch to something called a "Tesla" the last time I was in but I really don't see why?

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Baron, did you know that all Sisters have spikes implanted into their scalps? It’s just that in 99.99999% of the OFFICIAL illustrations you can’t see it.

Show us something that has them with spikes in their scalps.

If I show you one such picture of one Sister with spike implants would that be enough to convince you that all Sisters have spike implants and we just don’t see them because of their hair and helmets? This is the argument Crimson is making about PA interface plugs in art preceding this retcon.


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 BaronIveagh wrote:
There will be no FSM/Doc Thunder style brawls here.

The thing about Dr Thunder is, he was totally sincere. He just wanted to do his own thing. I argued with him pretty hard but, you know, we ended up working kn some of his fiction together.

It is also that because Sisters have been so long out of focus, that studio really has not spend much time thinking about them. In their various get by codices stuff was just mostly copypasted from the older books, little new was added. Now that the studio has undertaken this big overhaul project, they're actually paying attention to the Sisters. They will add new fluff, create new more detailed models, and will think about details that have hitherto been unclear. And this process may produce some answers that differ from those what people's headcanons or various licensed material creators have been coming up with in the past decades.

 ekwatts wrote:
You wanted it to stay exactly the same? Welp, you were the one person that was absolutely guaranteed to be disappointed, to the point that your complaints actually end up looking kind of silly.

You’re not quite getting what’s going on. Up through the Repentia preview, pretty much everything was staying exactly the same. And some of us wanted exactly that. But I don’t think any of us expected there would be no change to Repentia. Personally, I thought they would either get retconned entirely out of existence or changed to something completely unrecognizable. GW did a lot better than I expected by making something not too different from the cool original concept, even if they couldn’t do exactly that concept because of changing sensibilities and market realities. The issue isn’t that these new Repentia are terrible and the world is awful and let it all burn, etc. The issue is, it’s too bad that part of this mostly respectable and acceptable change involved making a pretty huge allusion to Space Marines — something anathema to the brand ID of Sisters.

 Crimson wrote:
It is also that because Sisters have been so long out of focus, that studio really has not spend much time thinking about them. In their various get by codices stuff was just mostly copypasted from the older books, little new was added. Now that the studio has undertaken this big overhaul project, they're actually paying attention to the Sisters. They will add new fluff, create new more detailed models, and will think about details that have hitherto been unclear. And this process may produce some answers that differ from those what people's headcanons or various licensed material creators have been coming up with in the past decades.

Yeah, this is right. Whether X retcon was actually always intended won’t even matter. The new levels of technology are making much mre detailed sculpts possible and the market demands that level of detail.

You guys that are using this or that piece of art or contracted fiction as "proof" of whatever side, try to remember that if we're using that as infalliable canon... then Space Marines use Mulltilasers.

Keep in mind even dpictions of Space Marines out of their armor can be somewhat inconsistant.

Sometimes it's depicted as little more then ports on their body, such as with this



othertimes the Black Carapiece is actually outside the Space Marines body, such as most clearly seen on the Wulfen models. So if GW can't be consistant on SPACE MARINES, we can't expect consistany on the other power armor users

 His Master's Voice wrote:

That right there Is what the new repentia should have looked like (I would prefer without the plugs thoe). They are suppose to be wearing the torn and tattered remains of their robes.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Baron, did you know that all Sisters have spikes implanted into their scalps? It’s just that in 99.99999% of the OFFICIAL illustrations you can’t see it.

Show us something that has them with spikes in their scalps.

If I show you one such picture of one Sister with spike implants would that be enough to convince you that all Sisters have spike implants and we just don’t see them because of their hair and helmets? This is the argument Crimson is making about PA interface plugs in art preceding this retcon.

I really think Crimsons point was just that they’ve at least been shown at some point to have power armour ports, so it’s not a complete out of nowhere change. At least one Sister has had power armour ports in the past, and at least one Sister has had spike implants before.

That was exactly his point but there’s not a lot of arguing in good faith going on... just arguing.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
That was exactly his point but there’s not a lot of arguing in good faith going on... just arguing.

You're absolutely right, that was his point, and it is arguing in bad faith.

"One singular example of two cybernetic ports at the nape of the neck and on the skull in the entire history of Sisters-related media which show or describe zero ports and have stated the opposite on several occasions(but I personally don't care about those publications and so have declared them invalid), and which have no actual indications they're specifically ports for armour interface, completely overrides all other said media and renders any objections on that basis moot." is a nonsense argument.

Like others have said, you can make an argument for or against the ports, but arguing they're not a new thing at all is just sheer farce.

 ImAGeek wrote:

I really think Crimsons point was just that they’ve at least been shown at some point to have power armour ports, so it’s not a complete out of nowhere change. At least one Sister has had power armour ports in the past, and at least one Sister has had spike implants before.

Not all ports are plug ports for power armour (eg. cerebral plugs are commonplace - the mutant leader on pg.43 of Codex: Witch Hunters has a simlar port in his head, as does the pointing man on pg.3, but surely they aren't Sororitas power armour users!). There is no reason to assume that the one image of a Sister Repentia with ports was intended to be representing plug ports for power armour - particularly as no other contemporary artwork or models or descriptions had/mentioned such features (and logically if one needs plug ports to interface with her armour, all would).

In the end, if GW wants to retcon any part of the sisters lore, they have the right to do this. This is their trademark, after all.

Some things may change, some things may be more detailed. Times change, and people do as well. It's clear the team in charge now is significantly different than the one before. It's not necessarily a bad nor a good thing. It's just a thing.

We may call it gak or whatever, we're not the people in charge. We're just the customers here. So in the end, we'll take whatever suits us.

Lore and design are one thing, but gameplay is definitely another. If the new repentias are damn good in game, we'll see them on the board, like it or not. And we'll get used to them eventually. If they're not good in game or moderately useful, then I suspect we won't be seeing them a lot like we didn't see a lot of repentias until now.

Do you remember when the plastic dark eldar wyches were out ? And how people complained about how the females look "not feminine enough" and "too muscular" in comparison to the metal ones ? In the end, we got used to the plastic wyches (most of us, anyway). Because they're so convenient as a kit. Sure, there are better looking wyches on the market in metal, resin or whatever. But there are reasons why we don't see them replacing the GW plastic ones - convenience wins over a lot of things, eventually. It will be the same here, I have no doubt about it.

If the new repentias are damn good in game, we'll see them on the board, like it or not.

Eh. If I start a Sister’s army I’ll probably play them either way. I’m annoying like that,

So having had a few days to reflect on the repentia shown, I've come to a more thought out view on the repentia shown, as opposed to an emotional knee jerk reaction.

Posing:

Old models were limited to 3 power.
1) Standing straight up with eviscerators straight forward.
2) standing straight up but with one foot forward and eviscerators pointing up a bit.
3) eviscerators overhead, standing straight up but with a foot raised and bent knee.

Very static and very 2D. Turn the models straight on and they disappear :p

New models are more 3D. We've seen running. Full blown swing follow through with feet showing base of support.
Compared to the old poses, the new ones certainly look more interesting.
That said, the I poses are only "okay" to my eye. They don't convey too much action to me, no leaping or even a big wind up for a eviscerating blow.
But these are plastics; the dream of modifications and modelling self styled poses is coming true.


The Plugs:

These are a retcon and not one I'm on board with- just like the retcon of Necrons having Dynasties.
The fluff implications aside, they're harshly huge and we've never seen them in any form of sisters media- to this extent.
Fortunately, plastic (huzzah), that stuff can be scraped off and as for the fluff, there's always headcannon.
Ultimately, the IP belongs to GW and they'll make whatever they want be whatever they want.
I know my girls will be going about Imperium Nihilus using only sheer awesomeness (and a power pack) to move their armour.


Musculature/femininity:

Seeing muscle tone is great. It's cool to see trained and toned flesh lays beneath that power armour. Personally i have no problem with it, i like it. My concern here lies in the scale of it.
The old models look alright in this regard. They're not hugely muscled and can see that these limbs fit inside power armour.
These new models? Well, we won't know until the models are in our hands. My hope is that GW have made them in such a way they they retain this musculature but at a scale that they look like they can fit inside power armour.
I find it doubtful a repentia can live long enough to get so buff they can't fit in power armour.
That said, I could see GW releasing a new unit in thicker bigger armour saying that they're former repentia, to get around such a thing...probably not.

As to the overall female look...the old models need no imagination, nuff said.
The new ones leave (for me) a truck load of imagination required. The faces lack almost all femininity. I'm Army, and even the most buffed up female PTIs I've come across look female in the face. These new ones lack that; so very rigid.
Despite these models wearing short shorts and a generous top- things that usually accentuate female form- what we (I) see is very very little in the tell of feminity.
One of the main draws of the sisters to me is that they're hardcore kicka** women and you can tell from a distance. These new ones make me feel I'm required to get a magnifying glass and go cross eyed trying to determine if they're female or a bunch of transitioning dudes.
This doesn't make me sexist, it just means I like my little toy plastic soldiers that are girls to look like girls because that's what they are.


Clothing:

The other stuff on the new models I can live with, but this is where the line is drawn.
Repentia, to my knowledge (and if I'm wrong then headcannon), are not given the best treatment.
They are given the barest necessities to survive. The simplest and only required of meals to sustain them. The most basic of medical attention after battle just to prevent them from dying.
They are required to look after the only piece of wargear they have (eviscerators) and are given the means for that.
They are not issued any clothing (except in cases of total destruction) and only have the habit/robe that they had when they were stripped of their armour. This robe lasts them the entire time they're a repentia, it gets torn, they tie it up; it's torn from battle, it's torn from the whips of the mistress, it gets reduced to rags- heck, part of the oath of penitent ceremony, the sisters robe is cut to shreds and tied to them.
They wear a mask - not to conceal their identity. Part of the oath of the penitent the sisters declare the penitent to be nameless to them. The hood/mask doesn't represent hiding identity, rather that the wearer no longer has identity.

All of the above is absolutely nailed in the old models.
In the new models, it is an utter and complete failure. No torn robes of their order. One? Mask.
The new clothing does not tie in with the aesthetic of the sisters save for the Eviscerators. No paint job will fix that imo.

Some of us may have seen floating around a pohotoshopped image someone did of one of GWs repentia where instead of the shorts and shirt, it has a torn and ragged robe.
That pohotoshopped image is infinately better looking and complimentary to the sisters aesthetic than the plastic (cad) lump GW showed us. It is my hope that this Photoshop image makes its way back to GW, the designers slap themselves in the faces and change the CAD to this much better look.

Now certainly one could greenstuff and kitbash the repentia to have the ragged robe look, but that is an awful lot of work to get them to a place where they should be starting from. That is all time and effort that I can't afford.