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tneva82 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Wait......50k deaths is considered insignificant?

Well it is for those who see humans just as tools to get rich by exploiting them.

If you care of human lives only for what they gain you personally 50k, 100k, 500k deaths...it's all the same.

TBF, it wasn't until some close to 200 years we abolished slavery. Some societies and cultures took even longer.
It could be worse.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Wait......50k deaths is considered insignificant?

Worldwide? Yes, it is. About 153,000 people die every day worldwide. 50k deaths spread out over 5 months is

This comparison would make sense if all deaths were evenly spread.

If you live for example in Bergamo odds are you've lost someone you know at this point.

The measures in place try to prevent other cities into becoming a new Wuhan or Bergamo.

 Sqorgar wrote:
Worldwide? Yes, it is. About 153,000 people die every day worldwide. 50k deaths spread out over 5 months is

You do understand that the death rate is exponential and not linear, right? You're saying 50,000 over 5 months (which is itself inaccurate because not only is it not clear whether it began spreading in November, but if it did they haven't attribute any deaths to it. In order to maintain data integrity and ensure accurate and consistent reporting you have to measure time from the first attributed death, which was January 11th, a bit over 2 months ago) as though in another 5 months there will be only another 50,000 deaths. There won't be, if unchecked the number will be much higher. Do you understand what exponential growth is?

 Sqorgar wrote:


In 2016, there were 15.2 million deaths from heart disease worldwide. 50k is about 4% of heart disease, and I don't see anybody trying to regulate or outlaw sugar (it doubles your rate of heart disease! We could save millions of lives!), much less shutting down all of society and putting literally millions out of work:

.
There's a whole lot of factors being missed here. First, yeah there are efforts being made to reduce and limit sugar consumption in many developed nations and in many US states. Second, sugar is one factor among many with regards to heart disease, and doubling one's risk doesn't necessarily mean much if the original risk was miniscule to being with, and the dancing lady you linked isn't giving us much data on that.

As for the flu, yeah it kills a ton of people every year and we devote *enormous* amounts of resources to managing that every year and seasonal buildups of related medical resources, and that death rate is *with* tens of millions of widespread and easily available vaccinations. If Covid-19 achieves the same infection spread however however, instead of killing 50k people, it will be killing millions of people (the *lowest* consistent fatality rate I've seen for Covid-19 was 2%, with the flu averaging 0.1%), and will collapse the medical system's ability to respond (and to treat other issues). If *that* comes to pass, the economic consequences will similarly be orders of magnitude larger than those we are seeing now. There's a reason these responses are being taken, it's because of the very real threat that to not do so would result in substantially greater harm.

If we have a recession and mass job loss and only 50k deaths, it may look like an overreaction to some if viewed through the lens you're advocating, but if the alternative is a very real risk of a couple million dead and a long depression, then people are going to err on the side of caution.

That said, with this thing where its at, there's a substantial portion of the workforce that simply will not engage in many of those currently shut down jobs ( and a similar lack of demand for the products of services of such jobs) with the risk of contracting Covid-19 around, simply because people don't wanna play that roulette game, rational or irrational. Lifting stay at home orders won't bring that economic activity back in and of itself.

tneva82 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Wait......50k deaths is considered insignificant?

Well it is for those who see humans just as tools to get rich by exploiting them.

If you care of human lives only for what they gain you personally 50k, 100k, 500k deaths...it's all the same.

I get the distinct impression that you are seeing what you want to see in my posts, not what is actually there. I've repeatedly said that we will lose MORE lives from the resulting worldwide depression than we will from the disease - and unlike an act of nature, like the coronavirus, the depression is something which doesn't have to happen. Something we could prevent wholesale if we act appropriately, not just "flatten the curve". These are people who don't have to die and shouldn't have to die due to the poor decisions of a panic stricken mob trying to virtue signal their way through tragedy.

Temporary lock while I work on some things...

Alright, I'm re-opening the thread. Please note a few things:

1. Deceptive links (putting a url behind text that doesn't correspond to the text description) is not allowed on Dakka.

2. We are really crossing the line of political discussion. While I know a lot of things feel intertwined with this issue, and we're all feeling the effects, this is not the venue to discuss that aspect of the coronavirus crisis. So, please try to avoid political posts, or we'll simply have to lock this thread and take the discussion elsewhere.

3. Finally, the last page or so has gotten really off topic in general. There's a lot to discuss about coronavirus here - if you want to discuss other tangential things, please do so in another thread.


Thanks all... let's stay on track, please!

Folks, if I can haud mah wheesht on politics, should be a doddle for you,

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Folks, if I can haud mah wheesht on politics, should be a doddle for you,

English ^%*&^%^ do you speak it ?

Really I have no idea what you just said.

Scots slang, as it happens

Good gentle sirs. If one can hold one’s tongue, despite being a distinctly political beast, the exact orientation and leaning being irrelevant for this instance, then one imagines, good sirs, you should find the identical task of far greater ease

Punctuation.

Applied liberally!

Remember guys, on topic please

In other news, we now have issues with ventilators here.

The world is short of ventilators now. They are pretty specialist equipment in normal times.

Fun fact about those stimulus checks...

For those not in the industry, some people may be in for quite a rude surprise. If you use a retail tax place and pay the tax prep fee through your refund this might just cause a bit of trouble for you.

See, when you pay the fees through the refund, the company opens a temporary bank account for you. In the tax return, they tell the IRS to direct deposit your refund into that account. They take the fees out and then send the remainder wherever you tell them to. Then they close the account.

The problem - The new stimulus checks will be going to be direct deposited into the account listed on your most recent tax return. Thus, if you did this at the retail places, they'll be trying to deposit it into an account that doesn't exist any more. What happens from there, I don't know.

So who predominately pay the fees through the refund? Lower income people with children. The very people that desperately need the extra money and are more likely to have been laid off or had their hours reduced.

The problem - The new stimulus checks will be going to be direct deposited into the account listed on your most recent tax return. Thus, if you did this at the retail places, they'll be trying to deposit it into an account that doesn't exist any more. What happens from there, I don't know.

Generally refunds that fail to direct deposit are returned by the banks, they're then issued as a paper check to the taxpayer.

I've had to explain this to taxpayers before. It usually goes through the system without a hitch, but I expect there will be problems that crop up, and quite a few phone calls I'll have to answer.

This also takes more time. (More time the the extra time paper checks take).

Plus the checks would be mailed to the address on the return and the people in this category are significantly more transient than other groups.

Regardless, they may not even realize this is how things work and it will come as a rude surprise.

That seems very much a US problem. Bureaucracy's a bitch.
I do agree with Mad Doc though. I have an opinion about almost everything. I like to think I've managed to keep politics out of my posts and stuck to facts and my (I like to think logically following) interpretion of them.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Folks, if I can haud mah wheesht on politics, should be a doddle for you,

Oh no. Neurological deterioration is a sign of Coronavirus! He’s one of them!


Remember, hand sanitizer is for external use only, Mad.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Folks, if I can haud mah wheesht on politics, should be a doddle for you,

Oh no. Neurological deterioration is a sign of Coronavirus! He’s one of them!


Remember, hand sanitizer is for external use only, Mad.

It's a scot. He will be fine .

So has anyone here in the uk been stopped by the police while driving around yet. Seems they are out in force now checking where people are going.

Been given travel papers by my company which should help as we are a direct defence company. Still would sooner be at home with the family but hell we’ve all got a part to play in this horrible saga I guess.

So, Italy just recorded 900+ deaths in a day (COVID-19 attributed)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52058788

Getting quite scary now, particularly with the UK closely mirroring what has happened In Italy.

Shops have been quieter due to restrictions on number of people allowed in store at any one time. There are still empty shelves and people are still being gakheads over TP and cleaning materials.

I shall be venturing out to the shops again tomorrow, and will be the first time I wear a face mask. My wife is in an at risk grouping so better safe than sorry even though ill be keeping my distance.

My work has also been suspended and, as I am self employed, having to wait on the recently announced taxable grant to kick in. I am actually concerned that I have been too zealous in my accounting. And it transpires If I had set up a limited company and paid myself from that via PAYE I would now be able to claim 80% of my own wages. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Could be worse, I have spent the last few days in the garden, making it habitable again. And am now beating the washing pile.....The ironing tower continues to grow.....




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xKillGorex wrote:
So has anyone here in the uk been stopped by the police while driving around yet. Seems they are out in force now checking where people are going.

Been given travel papers by my company which should help as we are a direct defence company. Still would sooner be at home with the family but hell we’ve all got a part to play in this horrible saga I guess.

Trade Plater here. I know of a few drivers who have been turned around. I can actually see the Police DVLA and HMRC getting some interesting collars during the lockdown.

 xKillGorex wrote:
So has anyone here in the uk been stopped by the police while driving around yet. Seems they are out in force now checking where people are going.

Been given travel papers by my company which should help as we are a direct defence company. Still would sooner be at home with the family but hell we’ve all got a part to play in this horrible saga I guess.

That's ridiculous. What legislation gives them the right to decide if I'm on a necessary journey or not? Thats too far. Fine, give them powers to disperse crowds, and stop people congregating in towns, but policing peoples journeys? And how are we supposed to prove where we're going?

The legislation is likely bundled with the emergency powers they've been given recently.

Proof might be suspect, but it might be enough to remind people not to make non-essential journeys; keep the attitude up that this is a serious problem and not just going on as normal and also to perhaps try and encourage/enforce people not travelling as far for things like essential services.

In an ideal world government would be able to say only shop at the nearest supermarket/retail outlet to you. Instead people are still travelling longer distances for ideal supermarkets/retail outlets. Perhaps a favoured one; one that holds more stock; or just cheaper prices.


I know we regularly travel further to get to an Aldi instead of the local coop because of the significant price saving

 Sqorgar wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Wait......50k deaths is considered insignificant?

Well it is for those who see humans just as tools to get rich by exploiting them.

If you care of human lives only for what they gain you personally 50k, 100k, 500k deaths...it's all the same.

I get the distinct impression that you are seeing what you want to see in my posts, not what is actually there. I've repeatedly said that we will lose MORE lives from the resulting worldwide depression than we will from the disease - and unlike an act of nature, like the coronavirus, the depression is something which doesn't have to happen. Something we could prevent wholesale if we act appropriately, not just "flatten the curve". These are people who don't have to die and shouldn't have to die due to the poor decisions of a panic stricken mob trying to virtue signal their way through tragedy.

Except if you lose millions of people, you get the deaths AND the depression as consumer spending drops precipitously, because there are millions fewer consumers.

 xKillGorex wrote:
So has anyone here in the uk been stopped by the police while driving around yet. Seems they are out in force now checking where people are going.

Been given travel papers by my company which should help as we are a direct defence company. Still would sooner be at home with the family but hell we’ve all got a part to play in this horrible saga I guess.

We had a customer who ordered a filter and oil(personally I'd argue they do count as essential) for his car ring up to cancel as the police had sent him back home. Also heard from another guy he'd been stopped on his way to pick up a takeaway(not essential) last night. In that instance the police took his name and told him he would get a fine if they had to stop him again. I guess they have started to get tired of people not following the restrictions.

And to be fair the message really is not getting through to some. Today we turned people away who wanted paint(twice for bodywork, once for caliper paint), body filer, aluminium mesh, a fiberglass kit, oil for a strimmer and cables for a sub. Had one guy who got his mate to give him and his son a lift to the shop, and another pair who arrived in different cars but then had a good chin wag while sat in the same car Also had a lot of people who fall into the "at risk" age bracket knock on the door.

But the area manager has given us the green light to close early tomorrow(Saturday is usually our busiest day for over the counter) and the shutters are staying down on the shop front. Head office is also looking into furloughing some staff with the government scheme once they figure out how many are needed to supply the NHS and other key workers through the national garage chains. So fingers crossed.

Why shouldn't you be allowed to go further to a shop of your choosing? Who are they to determine whether you're going too far? This is my point, while the loss of liberties disturbs me, I'd accept them in the current circumstances, provided they remain temporary, but arbitrary stop checks and inquiries into people's business is something that should not be happening. Its not like you can go about business as usual.. All the businesses are closed.

How exactly do I prove that I'm going shopping? Do I show them shopping bags? And if I'm not near my nearest shop, how are they to prove I don't need something that shop doesn't have or has run out of and have to find somewhere else?
And then what if I refuse to tell them where I'm going, or refuse to turn back if they deem my journey unnecessary? Will I be arrested? And if so, charged with what? Its ludicrous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:

In an ideal world government would be able to say only shop at the nearest supermarket/retail outlet to you.


I know we regularly travel further to get to an Aldi instead of the local coop because of the significant price saving

Then we differ wildly on what constitutes an ideal world.

Although the second point shows that you don't really believe that.

Its because idiots attended national parks and tourist attractions in record bank holiday numbers. Those same idiots are unlikely to have the mental agility to compose a plausible reaason why theres 6 of them taking the dog for a walk with a portable barbeque and cooler full of beer.

While portions of the general public continue to behave like morons, we have to accept that the state has no choice but to tar us all with that same brush.

Its a sad truth that anything relying on large numbers of people exercising good judgment and consideration for others is doomed to fail. Way too many people are treating this like an extended Sunday instead of a public health crisis.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:


Then we differ wildly on what constitutes an ideal world.

Although the second point shows that you don't really believe that.

Of course when I'm saying "Ideal world" I mean in reference to the containment of the potential spread of the virus - which is the whole point of the heavily restricted movement of people we are undertaking right now at a national and global level.

In theory if we shut down all civilian movement much earlier for a week we could likely have halted much of the infection in its tracks even to the point of full containment. However even strict nations like China aren't equipped to react that fast nor to prevent infection simply spreading through police, services and armed forces used to control public movement.


Again these are not liberties to live by as a society; but ones to enact/work toward (even at a basic level) for emergencies.