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H.B.M.C. wrote:Please God, someone make him stop talking...

BYE

I hate to agree with him, but the best mech designs CBT had were the ones they stole.



Honestly. Look at this thing. LOOK AT IT.

That is because those mechs were designed by professional mecha designers, rather than an amateur who barely passed high school art classes.

I, too, am a fan of the classic unseen designs. Sure, they were stolen, but that was what caught my eye to begin with. And FASA certainly took the designs and made them work in a much more gritty universe than the original source material. That is not to say that there haven't been good designs that were original, and to be perfectly honest, I actually like the 3025 Commando. It's an iconic Lyran 'mech to me. The 3050 Clan 'mechs, as a whole, represent some really great designs that have since become an inseparable part of the CBT universe.

As for LAMs, I am glad they are gone. The truth is that they were broken. Giving up 10% of your mass to permanently gain a Gunnery advantage over your opponent was too easy to do. Sure, it required a skilled pilot to so without making the game last 10 hours, but always getting to hit your opponent on lower numbers than he could hit you was just too big of an advantage.

JohnHwangDD wrote:That is because those mechs were designed by professional mecha designers, rather than an amateur who barely passed high school art classes.

Professional mecha designers? That's a career path?

dogma wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:That is because those mechs were designed by professional mecha designers, rather than an amateur who barely passed high school art classes.

Professional mecha designers? That's a career path?

Yes, God bless japan.

ShumaGorath wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Please God, someone make him stop talking...

BYE

I hate to agree with him, but the best mech designs CBT had were the ones they stole.



Honestly. Look at this thing. LOOK AT IT.

Am I the only one who see the irony in the fact that ShumaGorath chose to show a Commando when he said that they're best designs were the one's that they 'stole'? Well guess what, they did not 'steal' the Commando. That's an in-house, original design from FASA.

I know, I was showing a terrible design... I even made a humorous and over reactionary comment under it..

That's not what you wrote...

I love the commando, one of my favorite mechs. I also love the gritty, "hard" sci-fi edge of CBT. I also love small furry animals, but only when it gets cold enough, which it's definitely doing right now.

I said the best CBT designs were the ones they stole, then I showed one of their worst in house designs to enunciate my point. I should have been clearer I guess.

Yeah, I wouldn't call the ones they stole (and they didn't steal them either, but that's another story for another time) the 'best' designs.

Things like the Griffon, Wolverine, Crusader - they were all crap. The Thunderbolt is the worst of them (have you seen the miniature? Uuhgg... it's like metal Possessed Marines bad).

The Marauder is also really stupid looking, but has the nostalgic awesomeness. The best design was the Warhammer, and the current one can't hold a candle to it sadly.

But the Commando as your example Shummy? The Commando is a great little thing (the artwork you posted isn't, but we've already established that the earlier TRO artwork was pretty poor). There are far worse things tham the Commando (the Imp for example, or another one that looks like a tea-pot), and many, many better designs.

And as for John's typically inane comments (especially inane given he doesn't even understand BattleTech) - claiming that since the Macross designs left the game has 'sucked' is like saying since GW stopped making Chaos Dwarfs Warhammer has sucked.

BYE

Prometheum5 wrote:Haha, HMBC, you're terrible to poor DD, but he's not all wrong.

No. He always is. All the time.

Prometheum5 wrote:The Macross and Dougram imports did make some truly cool minis before Battletech got quite so 'hard'...

I'm not saying they didn't, what I'm disagreeing with is John utterly stupid notion that BTech w/o Macross Designs = Teh Suck! Actually, my example about Chaos Dwarfs is inadequate in showing just how silly John's assertion is.

Try this one instead:

Saying that BTech sucks since the Macross designs went bye bye is akin to saying 40K sucks since the the original Land Raider and Rhino artwork went bye bye.

And I'm not really sure when BTech became 'hard' sci-fi. They still have magical faster than light travel and a system of physics that doesn't make sense - often called FASA-physics or FASyics. They don't even have mobile telephones...

Prometheum5 wrote:I admit that my experience in Battletech really blossomed during the civil war (even tho I typically preferred being a Kuritan), but the early stuff always seemed pretty rad as well.

Some of it. Once again, ignoring the artwork from the early TRO's (so TRO 3025, TRO 2750 and TRO 3050), there were a lot of great designs. The only really truly bad set of designs came from TRO 3055. You look at them and wonder 'What were they thinking?'. They've improved them a bit since then with the rerelease of 3055, but they're still some screwy artwork in there - sometimes a bad design can't be prettied up.

And their attempts at redoing some of the old stuff has been hit-and-miss. Some of them, like their redone Warhammer, doesn't really capture the menace of the original one. Their Marauder might as well be a different machine. It's not bad, but it's not a Marauder. Things like the Crusader and Shadow Hawk got better, the Phoenix Hawk looks great, the Locust is basically the same, and the Thunder Bolt is very cool, leaps and bounds above its hunchbacked malformed anime origins.

BYE

Alright, you raise some fair points... I definitely think that even with the shoddy artwork the Unseen era was better than the current tho... the Dark-Age and anorexic spikey designs of the current age have just utterly killed CBT for me... after the civil war most of the fun and interest in the fluff just seemed to evaporate, and I was sorely disappointed with the Project Phoenix designs and most of the models.

BT could also have done very well with a more customizable miniatures system. The omni-mechs tried to provide modelers with more to do without hard resculpting and hacking, but then you have the hacks that say the Clans killed BT, so what are you gonna do?

ut the Commando as your example Shummy? The Commando is a great little thing

But its a little man made of boxes and random lines with a hat! It's one of the silliest designs in all of CBT.

I probably should have posted the urbanmech though. The walking trashcan is classic.

All I know about BattleTech is the Mad Cat is so totally full of win, and anyone who disagrees needs to be drug out into the street and beat to within an inch of their life. Then stepped on by a Mad Cat.

Actually I liked the artwork from TRO 3025. The best artwork is in TRO 3057 and 3058 IMHO. All are from the same artist (Duane Loose).

ShumaGorath wrote:I probably should have posted the urbanmech though. The walking trashcan is classic.

You don't dare decry the holy name of the UrbanMech!!!!

Everyone loves the Urbie. It's a piece of junk, but it is so much fun!!

BYE

Prometheum5 wrote:Alright, you raise some fair points... I definitely think that even with the shoddy artwork the Unseen era was better than the current tho... the Dark-Age and anorexic spikey designs of the current age have just utterly killed CBT for me... after the civil war most of the fun and interest in the fluff just seemed to evaporate, and I was sorely disappointed with the Project Phoenix designs and most of the models.

Some of the Dark Age designs are bad, you're right there.

But don't let the presence of the Dark Age Era ruin it for you. Dark Age is a destination - somewhere many, many years off in CBT's future. For the moment, we've had the end of the Civil War all the way through to the Jihad, which is about halfway through now, and that's being written by the guys who have always written BTech's fluff, so it's good!

The Phoenix Designs were a compromise. Some of them are definate hits (the Marauder II looks scary, the Locust is a virtual copy, the Thunder Bolt is great), some were 'meh' like the Marauder, and some were no where near as good as the originals (Warhammer's a big one here, except the Warhammer IIC, which is a lovley model).

Prometheum5 wrote:BT could also have done very well with a more customizable miniatures system. The omni-mechs tried to provide modelers with more to do without hard resculpting and hacking, but then you have the hacks that say the Clans killed BT, so what are you gonna do?

BTech could've done with a massive privatley own miniature production company... but what they've got is a group with 3 permanant staff, some people who help out with the casting in their free time, and a stack of free-lance sculptors. Omni-Parts are coming - they've made parts for about 5 Clan Omni-Mechs and have another 12 or so awaiting release - but sadly Iron Wind Metals isn't Citadel Miniatures.

BYE

I know the Omni-mech parts are in the works and that the BT sculptor pool is small... I used to be a big member over at Lords of the Battlefield and loved to see what was in the pipeline and chat with some of the guys working on it.

But don't let the presence of the Dark Age Era ruin it for you. Dark Age is a destination - somewhere many, many years off in CBT's future. For the moment, we've had the end of the Civil War all the way through to the Jihad, which is about halfway through now, and that's being written by the guys who have always written BTech's fluff, so it's good!

I think the problem here is really just a personal one... I don't like it when an established universe that I'm attached to undergoes a drastic change from what I love most of the time. It's a neurosis and I know it, but when the Wobblies started dropping nukes I lost alot of my passion for the CBT universe. Maybe that's why I like 40k so much, the universe is totally static and the fluff is basically stagnant

BattleTech at one time did have a good sized company producing their miniatures for them called Ral Partha. However as Partha became more dependent on FASA for their profits in heyday of M:TG, FASA forced Partha to sell the company to them or else they'd pull the BattleTech line that kept them afloat. Three years after that, FASA themselves closed killing not only themselves but Ral Partha as well. Iron Wind Metals basically had to start again from scratch, but with the long term BattleTech deal, along with acquiring the B5Wars line seems to be poised to move up the ladder again.

It was sad to see Partha die...

Yes it was, considering I'm in Cincinnati (N. KY actually) and I know two of the sculptors (John Winter and Jeff Wilhelm) back in the day. John Winter even played 40K and WHFB down at the FLGS and I have a nice Dwarf Standard Bearer and Anvil of Doom painted by him.

My Uncle's a huge RalPartha fantasy goof so he still pines over their demise.

I've been skimming this thread, partially because of the typical tractor pulls between John and HBMC or Shuma & Dogma, but mostly because I'm one of the few sci fi guys who thinks that giant humanoid war machines are a bit silly. Which upsets me, because there is clearly plenty of choices for people into miniatures games involving giant war droids.

AS for the differences in setting, I think it's like Aristotle wrote. Audience's believe the impossible before the they believe the improbable. Having demons appear out of the warp is impossible, while having giant walking mechs is incredibly improbable. Both type of settings work well, but the improbable setting can often seem more familiar: after all nearly all the rules are the same. The 40k universe is so alien to us that it's hard to really relate.

Partha UK still exists as far as I know. Lemme check...

Yep, here they are. And their online store. Not the same as it once was, obviously, but the name is still out there. I think they probably act more as the European distrubutor for the stuff that Iron Wind makes.

And Polonius, there's no pulls between DD and myself. There's simply the stuff the Supreme Black Hole Of Anti-Intelligence says, and then me reacting to it... and then nothing as he can't fight his own battles and chose to ignore me. This is fine though. I'm quite happy for him not to see my posts. Way more fun that way.

BYE

Yep, Ral Partha Europe is a separate company. You can read a little of the company's background here. Also check out this article about Partha's early days. The part about the cat using the linotype box as its kitty-litter box is hilarious.

Ah! That explains the E-mails I've received from Mike Noe. Thanks Ghaz!

BYE

dogma wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:That is because those mechs were designed by professional mecha designers, rather than an amateur who barely passed high school art classes.

Professional mecha designers? That's a career path?

Yep. When you watch a show, pay attention to all of the vehicles and machines in the show, and how they're laid out, whether they're believable for what they do.

For example, you've see Men In Black, right? Every gun, car/spaceship, gadget was designed by someone. In Japan, that someone would be a mecha(nical) designer.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yep. When you watch a show, pay attention to all of the vehicles and machines in the show, and how they're laid out, whether they're believable for what they do.

For example, you've see Men In Black, right? Every gun, car/spaceship, gadget was designed by someone. In Japan, that someone would be a mecha(nical) designer.

Ah, ok. Yeah, I was aware that there are design specialties in terms of props, vehicles, et al. I was just a bit flabbergasted by the implication that the Japanese took mecha so seriously that they actually had a career track dedicated to it.

Polonius wrote:I've been skimming this thread, partially because of the typical tractor pulls between John and HBMC

Given that I choose not to interact with or otherwise respond to HMBC, there isn't any tractor pull.

Nevertheless, it amuses me that I figure so prominently in his life that he would even continue to pay any attention to me at all.
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