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H.B.M.C. wrote:From what I know, none of those models are new.

The Albatross, the third one you posted there, was released within a few years of TRO:3055 being published. TRO: 3055 was published in 1995. Most things in the BTech range are very old. I've got some tank models that are almost as old as I am (sculpts from '88). The fourth one you posted, the Battle Hawk, is from the same book - a 13 year old publication.

The biggest amount of their newer models - ignoring the Celestials - came about from Project Phoenix. That was 2003, and gave us some very nice models, like the excellent new Thunderbolt and Warhammer IIC.

BYE

Well, HBMC, they're new to me. I started playing before the Clans were introduced, just after they released the Star League Tech Manual. I haven't like most of the sculpts since just past the Clan releases. They all became too bulky and looked like rushed pieces to me. Compare the older atlas sculpt to the newer one. The old one had heft and power, where the new one looks anorexic. No thanks.

Valhallan42nd wrote:Well, HBMC, they're new to me.

That's... great... I guess.

Valhallan42nd wrote:They all became too bulky and looked like rushed pieces to me.

Well, they're not. And they're still not in any way 'new'.

Valhallan42nd wrote:Compare the older atlas sculpt to the newer one. The old one had heft and power, where the new one looks anorexic. No thanks.

Clearly you haven't seen the new sculpt IRL. It's very big. Nothing anorexic about it. But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of a good opinion. Nor do I see how anything you've said in any way refutes what I said:

None of these things are new.

Newer perhaps than the original models, yes, but not new by anyone's standards. Or, to put it another way, you've kept yourself out of the loop for 19 years (yes, TRO:3050's 20th anniversary is next year) and now come back to it and say 'everything new is crap'. Would that be correct?

BYE

Prometheum5 wrote:Well, it's not terribly math-based, but then again, I'M not terribly math-based... I had a bear of a time keeping movement and terrain and skill and whatnot modifiers all in check.

Never occured to you to just put a few dice next to a 'Mechs record sheet? Or even write it down and then rub it out at the end of the turn? I won't deny that you do have to do a lot of quick calculations in your head using tables and tables of modifiers, but keeping track of it all is a breeze after your first few games.

BYE

Prometheum5 wrote:Has CBT legitimately been growing to the extent you claim? Everywhere around me I see it as a dead game that sells no models and has almost no players, and the main CBT community I always visited has slowed down considerably from what it was about 5 years ago... I'm willing to be wrong, but I just haven't seen the success you're mentioning.

Catalyst Labs was running CBT all week long at GenCon. Their events were literatily swamped, to the point that the one event I went to had 4-5 boards with 10+ people per table, and they were turning people away. It also seems to have picked up quite a bit locally, but I agree with you, it's hard to say.

skyth wrote:CBT never struck me as a math-intensive game.

Not math per se, but it definitely had the old skool wargaming modifiers and charts. Personally I'm glad every time I play that 40K has long since moved away from that sort of thing. Unfortunately those sorts of things are EXACTLY what a well done click tech game could do without all the charts, etc.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Newer perhaps than the original models, yes, but not new by anyone's standards. Or, to put it another way, you've kept yourself out of the loop for 19 years (yes, TRO:3050's 20th anniversary is next year) and now come back to it and say 'everything new is crap'. Would that be correct?

BYE

Yes, Negative Nelly, that's absolutely correct, though I'd hardly call myself out of the loop. I have great affection for the older models, the 20 year + models, as you've pointed out. It's not like my FLGSs are not carring CBT stuff. With a very few exceptions, most of the line produced since the Clan invasion is crap. Detail-less sloppy crap.

And I've seen the models in real life, and they're still crap, even though I haven't played with/purchased them. The quality has dropped, unlike other games where quality has improved.

Valhallan42nd wrote:Yes, Negative Nelly, that's absolutely correct

I'm the one saying how great it all is, you're the one saying that everything since the Clans has been crap... and I'm being negative? I've got a message from my pot here, he says you're black.

Valhallan42nd wrote:With a very few exceptions, most of the line produced since the Clan invasion is crap. Detail-less sloppy crap. And I've seen the models in real life, and they're still crap, even though I haven't played with/purchased them.

In your opinion. Please stop passing it off as fact.

Valhallan42nd wrote:The quality has dropped, unlike other games where quality has improved.

Yeah, the quality 20 years ago sure was awesome compared to now. Yep, those new models sure can't compete with the glorious old ones.



At the end of the day I'm not going to argue the quality of BTech miniatures. There are loads that are absolute crap - both from an aesthetic point of view to a practical model point of view (the new Blood Asp looks a hell of a lot better than the old one, but I cannot get it to stay in one piece is such a bad model). But it's always been that way. It's not better or worse now than it was back in the old days before the Clans 'ruined everything' (a view I assume you hold, Mr 42nd - the Clans did 'ruin everything', right?).

As Shummy quite correctly pointed out, many of the original miniatures exist as they do because of the dreadful published concept sketches that made it into the TRO's. There are newer models coming out to replace these older ones (the new Fireball is about to come out after years of their being no model for it since the old moulds vanished into the dusts of time) and they're trying to use the newer artwork that has been done since then, improving the look of the 'Mechs without changing them in any significant fashion (look at TRO:3025 and compare it to TRO:3039 - all the same 'Mechs, but they just look better).

But simply saying 'Old is God - new stuff is extra crappy' is just plain wrong, and is an attempt to pass off opinion as fact. If you want to hold that opinion, then fine, it's my opinion that the current Chaos Codex is a steaming lump of Krootox dung that was made as a blatant insult to Chaos players, but that's just my opinion. I'm entitled to it, but it's not fact, and as such I won't try to pass it off as fact.

BYE

Hey now, that Imp was one of the first miniatures I ever painted! My first was the Axeman Learn To Paint set. If it weren't for BattleTech I may not have gotten into 40K.

Clan mechs were awesome. I loved the story of the Clans; and I even repainted my old star league mechs in Clan Blood Spirit colors. But I thank you for trying to pigeon-hole me in order to attempt to invalidate my still informed opinion. I dip hate the inherent power creep in most of my player base, who seemed to think that if it wasn't clan tech, you shouldn't bother with it. My core group switched to more narrative campaigns after that.

Fiction-wise, CBT had a compelling story line and a great setting. I just didn't agree with the aesthetic direction the newer mechs were taking. Like I said, there are a few exceptions in either direction. But taking even the Imp you posted in consideration, it's still more detailed than the other newer models you showed.

Are you honestly telling me you don't like the old Grasshopper, Centurion, Spider, Zeus, Assassin, etc? The Whitworth and Quickdraw, I understand...

Hey I've got an Imp too, and I love it to bits (it leads a unit of other 'egg' 'Mechs - two UrbanMechs and an UrbanMech IIC)... it's still (IMO) an ugly horrible model, one that didn't even improve with the new artwork in TRO3039.

BYE

I enjoy stuff like the old Stone Rhino... I've a few Unseens, and they're slick, stuff like the Urby were alot of fun to model as well.

All my mech models are Unseens except for a very few that were created from the original TRO.

A lot of the models are pretty basic but I like them because they are the original models taken from Dougram and Macross.

Prometheum5 wrote:I enjoy stuff like the old Stone Rhino... I've a few Unseens, and they're slick, stuff like the Urby were alot of fun to model as well.

Man, I remember the Stone Rhino. I loved that model. You could have killed someone with that thing. Just put it in a sock and start swinging...

LOL, good one lormax - thats actually not far from a real possibility!

We stopped stocking and ordering wizkids unless it was special order, about 9 months ago (made a giant dent in our alliance reps paycheck! no more commisions!) We could "feel" these guys dying. I don't think that topps had anything to do with it actually. More like the only good game mechanic they had was Pirates, and the way that was packaged actually was a turn off to many people (i thought it was cool, tons of people said it was lame)

I do know heroclix, mechwarrior, and anything that was good at one point, they systematically decayed. Long and short of it - you can only re-do / reprint batman so many times before the game and "collecatbility" of it really starts to lose its shimmer, and when they moved from the CMG booster style to open window - every box is the same type package, that took the secondary market away because there was no "rare" pulls.

We are shocked it lasted this long. The month we stopped stocking it - we took all the clix and moved them into the warehouse and off our show floor. Anybody who asked for clix, we said we couldnt stock it because demand was down (not a lie - it was true) and then recomended that if they had time to try a 40k demo, and also mentioned this cool game we heard called "monsterpocalypse" that was coming soon.
Never lost a customer and just stopped selling clix.

By the way, this is 100% true based on the email we got a week ago, along with thier public info. Topps plans to somehow (im still suspect) keep the heroclix game going. but unless they make a change in the game play, and packaging - it wont live long.

Even if it stays around we will be weary about stocking it in mass again, because really - we all think that a bunch of boneheads run that place. WHO THE HECK APPROVED HALO CLIX FOR RELEASE!?!?! what a ruined oppertunity - it was like buying action figures at walmart because the games rules were #1 horribly written and near impossible to understand #2 the ones you could understand made the game completly novice and made no sense with the "fluff" of halo. Dont get me started on horror clix.

Good bye, and its about time!

If anybody needs me i'll be over here playing real games that are good for our hobby, and industry.

Yo, there are quite a few of the Project Phoenix models that suck. The Crusader and Wolverine, for example.



The Veritech Reseens (Stinger, Valkyrie, Wasp) are all fugly looking too.

Monsterpocalypse?

I thought that was another Collectible Pre-Paint nightmare?

Privateer press has pretty much said if you buy a case, you've got the whole set or near enough that it won't count.

I've got faith they can make it work, and I'm not even a PP player. The D6 Generation interviews are pretty enlightening.

Sounds fair enough. Is how I buy my Magic Cards. Buy a Booster Box on release, and if I miss anything critical, singles order it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:Well, HBMC, they're new to me.

That's... great... I guess.

BYE

Actually there is a case to answer, and an explanation. Especailly for someone who likes to play around clan invasion timeline.

The Unseen.

In case you did not know Battletech shared a lot of its most endearing models with Veritech, Crusher Joe and other Japanese cartoon robots. Due to a lawsuit in the mid 90's FASA agreed to drop all these images from their product line and artwork.

Frankly I still think the early 80's designs Unseen or not have more character than the later stuff. With barely a handful of exceptions.

Battletech standard to look crap with 2750, which didnt have the character of the 3025 and 3026 designs. Some 3050 designs have animage to them, others dont looki so hot. Since then the mechs have gone downhill especially of late with the Dark Age crossover where mechs were redesigned as toys for kiddies. the game is still great and the storyline can deliver (when not written by Stackpole) but something is missing in the newer style.

The "buy a case" theory on MONNP-POC does work.

only once - in about 30 cases weve seen we have not got 1 of each of all the 12 monsters (12 boosters per case)

and I do like the example of how you equate it to magic players... it's a numbers / ratio / probability system.

As for Mon - Poc being a nightmare... nope there doing better with mon poc then with warmachine as of late - and the games mechanics are really sound (even if the flying saucer is a little bit broken!) and the sales are ridiculous, event participation is very high, and there even thinking of pushing set 2 forward to make the compitition more intense for about 5 months because that would create more possible Monster X vs Monster Y match-ups.

MonPoc will do well for a long while, barring they dont go all mechwarrior and do open window product and/or don't ever! ever! re-print anything!

by the way - the buy th ecase thing only works for the monsters. Collecting the units you desire is very tough and it is far better to buy singles at $4 each or trade extra monsters for them because sometimes we see as little as 1 copy of some units per case opened!

Reprints aren't horrible, provided there's a mechanism for controlling reprints. Look at Magic - there are things that are reprintable, and things that are not. It works pretty well for them.

And when it's reprinted, you know it's a reprint, so the value of the older cards isn't hit so hard.

Indeed. And I would argue that with Magic, you eventually get a repetition of the ability you want, even if it's not a reprint of the exact card.

excuss me. Not REPRINT I agree that reprints are ok if handled properly.

I should be saying RECREATE.

as in heroclix Re-CREATES the same models but it really breaks down th e"excitment" and fluff of it. as in I have 8 different batmans, when i open the 9th one its - "another batman" not "SWEET! I GOT BATMAN!"

so monpoc should just make new monsters and not re-create monster. advantage to monpoc becaus ethier universue is unlimited unlike comic universe is sort of forced to use charecters people want to see.

Oh, OK.

Tho, depending on the versions, there'd be a lot of excitement: "SWEET! I GOT GOLDEN-AGE SUPERMAN - I AUTOMATICALLY WIN!!!"

I know what you mean Gorilla.

Even with Mageknight, some of the supposedly 'new' beasties in each expansion were just plain old repaints of existing models with a different name. Sure, they had new abilities and stuff, but still it's somewhat 'meh'

Having said that though, I daresay the cost of constantly producing an entirely new batch of models for every expansion (beyond the first few of course, which I'd expect to be planned somewhat in advance) is something of a financial necessity. Otherwise you might never break even on startup costs if you find yourself constantly revisiting them.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Oh, OK.

Tho, depending on the versions, there'd be a lot of excitement: "SWEET! I GOT GOLDEN-AGE SUPERMAN - I AUTOMATICALLY WIN!!!"

And see - that is funny, because it's exactally true!

lets not go into the balance of power in this thread though.


HERE IS A FUNNY STORY: Our partner warehouse (not to be nammed) actually got some serious hatemail from alliance, and it all stemmed too how we do such a better job and alliance claimed they were "acting too aggressive" on wholesale pricing - and alliance used this as a reason to not pass wizkids product thorugh to them (wizkids was exclusive to alliance only as of early 2008)

well - looks like alliance lost it's bargaining chip!

funny that a company that is owned by DIAMOND was telling somebody else they were "too aggressive" when they did the same stuff back in the day to become the mega comic monopoly!


I think the best thing about this situation is, that it's NOT one of the companies that we give a hoot about, I only wish we could have warned people to stop buying thier stuff when we realized this would happen. But nooooo they insisted and I can't recall how many times we handed them a phone number of a "competion" store across town that was still determined to stock the WK products.

My personal friend who owns a store in a different area alltogether said he found out about the wizkids thing a week early because his primary busines is sports cards and he has a TOPPS direct account, and the news sort of grapevined over to him. The realization he came too was In his own words "Oh crap I have $7000 of wizkids products here that i need to FIRESALE before people wont even take it for 50% off!" (he has a very "impressive" stock of heroclix alone)

Sad, but not that surprised to see it. I knew it when I heard Wizkids site got hacked and was handing out spyware for a time, and it took forever to get it fixed.

Switching to Mage Knight 2.0 kinda killed off the game, and none of the alternatives they produced ever panned out except Mechwarrior for a time, Pirates and HeroClix.

They put a ton of effort into stuff like CreepyFreaks, but none of it ever panned out. If they had just switched to generic toy products they might have come through.

Really I feel bad for the FLGSs that are now sitting on a ton of dead inventory.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Remember the baseball clix? :lol: I was also really upset to see MK 2.0 tank, as the heroes and items were genuinely neat ideas blurring the line between wargame and RPG, but the actual mechanisms were just terrible.

Prometheum5 wrote:Remember the baseball clix? :lol: I was also really upset to see MK 2.0 tank, as the heroes and items were genuinely neat ideas blurring the line between wargame and RPG, but the actual mechanisms were just terrible.

OH YEAH! I totally forgot about sports clix!

I have a ALEX RODRIGUEZ here in this desk... i think it was a super rare! W00T!

yeah, looking at this really sums up the life of wizkids for me..........

Update: Looks like catalyst is putting in an offer to acquire the games.