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dogma wrote:
Ah, ok. Yeah, I was aware that there are design specialties in terms of props, vehicles, et al. I was just a bit flabbergasted by the implication that the Japanese took mecha so seriously that they actually had a career track dedicated to it.

I think in part there may be confusion because as Americans 'mecha' means "big stompy robots" while the Japanese description includes a much wider range of mechanical devices at all sizes.

Ghaz wrote:Yes it was, considering I'm in Cincinnati (N. KY actually) and I know two of the sculptors (John Winter and Jeff Wilhelm) back in the day. John Winter even played 40K and WHFB down at the FLGS and I have a nice Dwarf Standard Bearer and Anvil of Doom painted by him.

Ditto, I've had a number of gaming buddies make trips down to the shop to take a tour and buy some stuff at cost. It always sounded SO cool to me, I totally wanted to go, but sadly didn't make it before FASA effectively pulled the plug.

Polonius wrote:I've been skimming this thread, partially because of the typical tractor pulls between John and HBMC or Shuma & Dogma, but mostly because I'm one of the few sci fi guys who thinks that giant humanoid war machines are a bit silly. Which upsets me, because there is clearly plenty of choices for people into miniatures games involving giant war droids.

Agreed, giant walking robots are a bit silly, but then so is most of 40k. However, it's a LOT of fun, so I sort of put on my imagining cap, and enjoy the game. (I also tend to avoid using the "real" tanks in CBT because then the suspension of disbelief becomes even harder)

I just feel that MEcha, much like Steampunk is not a particularly inspiring source.

I remember how exciting it was when our local Commando was going to the IWM HQ for a visit and could bring us back stuff on the cheap... I'd love to go out there and check it out myself.

Mecha is definitely a niche market... 'realistic' fighting war-machines as opposed to some Gundam and the super-robot genres are even more-so niche. It's not for everyone, but I don't think any real 'hard' mecha fan can argue with CBT's approach.

Arguing for/against Mecha is a bit of a dead horse. The big negatives to making them truly 'realistic' is that they'd be massive targets (a big humanoid walker versus a low-slung tank), the recoil issues would be ridiculous (I.E. a massive gun on, effectively, the top of a big 'tower'), the way proportions don't scale the way most mecha are scaled (I.E. 'real' mecha would need massive oversize feet, not unlike a WHFB giant.), and the basic concept that it's a lot easier to engineer a wheeled system than a complex walker (The wheeled chassis has less moving parts, less stress points, less shot traps, etc.)...

BTech just kind of rolled with this. The biggest advantage of the BTech mecha seems to be the powerplants, but there's no reason they can't be put in larger ground vehicles.

40k, of course, goes a step beyond this as there's Dreadnought-class walkers (including Sentinels and such... Bigger than a man, but still on an comparatively small scale) up through Titans (which range from 'Huge' to 'Oh My!' in size.) 40k, of course, basically says "but it's cool!" to any complaints it's not realistic. This works, of course.

Mattlov wrote:There is no flanking in 40K, just shooting from a different angle. maneuvering behind an opponent doesn't actually give you an advantage in 40K over shooting them from any other angle.

Yes, because all vehicles have the same armour value on their front/rear/side.. Wait a minute!

Balance wrote:Arguing for/against Mecha is a bit of a dead horse. The big negatives to making them truly 'realistic' is that they'd be massive targets (a big humanoid walker versus a low-slung tank), the recoil issues would be ridiculous (I.E. a massive gun on, effectively, the top of a big 'tower'), the way proportions don't scale the way most mecha are scaled (I.E. 'real' mecha would need massive oversize feet, not unlike a WHFB giant.), and the basic concept that it's a lot easier to engineer a wheeled system than a complex walker (The wheeled chassis has less moving parts, less stress points, less shot traps, etc.)...

BTech just kind of rolled with this. The biggest advantage of the BTech mecha seems to be the powerplants, but there's no reason they can't be put in larger ground vehicles.

40k, of course, goes a step beyond this as there's Dreadnought-class walkers (including Sentinels and such... Bigger than a man, but still on an comparatively small scale) up through Titans (which range from 'Huge' to 'Oh My!' in size.) 40k, of course, basically says "but it's cool!" to any complaints it's not realistic. This works, of course.

In original Battletech if you put a Mech power plant in a tank you got such as superior fighting vehicle it was ridiculous.

Apart from anything else, tanks can't fall over.

However the point about mechs is the kewl factor.

dogma wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yep. When you watch a show, pay attention to all of the vehicles and machines in the show, and how they're laid out, whether they're believable for what they do.

For example, you've see Men In Black, right? Every gun, car/spaceship, gadget was designed by someone. In Japan, that someone would be a mecha(nical) designer.

Ah, ok. Yeah, I was aware that there are design specialties in terms of props, vehicles, et al. I was just a bit flabbergasted by the implication that the Japanese took mecha so seriously that they actually had a career track dedicated to it.

Well, there are a *few* guys who are well-known for their mecha (giant robot) design ability:
- Mamoru Nagano (my favorite) does Five Star Stories, along with Brain Powrd, and other stuff
- Hajime Katoki did a number of groundbreaking things in MS-Gundam (Dendrobium, Sazabi), Virtual On
- Yukata Izubuchi did my favorite "Gundam" - MS-18E Kampfer, along with Rune Masquer

And there are others. Often times, a show / movie will select a particular designer for a particular "look" or "style" that hey want to convey. But there aren't a lot of these guys, and they'll do other stuff, as there are only so many mecha-related series active at any given time.

Balance wrote:Arguing for/against Mecha is a bit of a dead horse. The big negatives to making them truly 'realistic' is that they'd be massive targets (a big humanoid walker versus a low-slung tank), the recoil issues would be ridiculous (I.E. a massive gun on, effectively, the top of a big 'tower'), the way proportions don't scale the way most mecha are scaled (I.E. 'real' mecha would need massive oversize feet, not unlike a WHFB giant.), and the basic concept that it's a lot easier to engineer a wheeled system than a complex walker (The wheeled chassis has less moving parts, less stress points, less shot traps, etc.)...

For "realistic" giant robots, you typically see things like:
- AT VOTOMS
- Gasaraki Tactical Armor
- Heavy Gear
These are smaller robots, with requisite legs like elephants and giant feet to deal with the square-cube mass rules and ground pressure. They're still silly, but might be feasible.

Giant robots only work because they can (theoretically) go places that tanks can't go - rough terrain / cross country. That's the only real advantage of a humanoid layout.

Aside from the sheer cool factor that stimulates the imagination.

Of course, there's also Patlabor (sort of, maybe, as it frequently pokes fun at the inherent silliness of giant robots while reveling in the silliness).

You forgot Kawamori and Kam. Miyazaki of Macross fame... Kawamori is all over the place, and while his main fame tends to be in the series he writes and the universes he creates as a writer, he has serious clout as a 'mecha-designer' for Armored Core, Gundam (MY favorite Gundam design, the GP-01/FB is by Kawamori) and various other series (including Crusher Joe, which ALSO had designs used in Battletech).

I myself am a huge VOTOMS sucker for its down-to-earth portrayal of the 'walking tank' ethos. Someday I'll find a copy of Gasakari to watch, bc/ those designs are awesome as well.

@Promethium - my design ethos is different from yours, so I'm not as huge on Kawamori, although I do appreciate his AC work.

Similarly, I'm not huge on Fujita.

But we all have to give regard to Okawara for getting the ball rolling.

Prometheum5 wrote:You forgot Kawamori and Kam. Miyazaki of Macross fame... Kawamori is all over the place, and while his main fame tends to be in the series he writes and the universes he creates as a writer, he has serious clout as a 'mecha-designer' for Armored Core, Gundam (MY favorite Gundam design, the GP-01/FB is by Kawamori) and various other series (including Crusher Joe, which ALSO had designs used in Battletech).

I myself am a huge VOTOMS sucker for its down-to-earth portrayal of the 'walking tank' ethos. Someday I'll find a copy of Gasakari to watch, bc/ those designs are awesome as well.

Kawamoris designs are quite neat to look at, but I blame him and the gundam trend for the total lack of "realism" in eastern mech designs. They are basically giant men in suits of ornate armor.

ShumaGorath wrote:Kawamoris designs are quite neat to look at, but I blame him and the gundam trend for the total lack of "realism" in eastern mech designs. They are basically giant men in suits of ornate armor.

That's the point! Gundam are basically designed after classical Samurai armor.

I know, it was cool in gundam. Unfortunately every other copycat show in the era picked up on the design (current vogue in the style is european medieval armor!). It's a case of much too much of an ok thing.

This is why I prefer the renditions used in BTech and things like it - big clunky things that don't dance around in the air like giant people.

The physics that governt BTech are very silly, but the ones in anime are worse...

BYE

The difference being gundam is a series of anime television shows for children and teens. Also if anyone remembers the old battletech show then I don't need to finish this sentence.

Ah c'mon. It had ancient 3D animation. And characters with strange names and even stranger hair-cuts.

What's weird though is that's part of the canon. Not the specifics of what happened (they're referred to In-Universe as a low-rating, badly received holodramatisation of real events), but the characters and the general plotline of what happened.

Heck, Adam Steiner, the main character from the show, is the current leader of the whole Lyran Alliance at the moment!!

BYE

You know all the episodes for it (and street sharks) are on youtube. Its amazing what you can get away with when its a property no one cares about.

I've seen the first one on there. It ranks in the 'so bad its good' category for me.

BYE

ShumaGorath wrote:The difference being gundam is a series of anime television shows for children and teens.

Someone's never seen the original Japanese versions of Gundam. Definitely not made for teens/kids, just translated for them(and that's a stretch when you consider 0083, Zeta, and Char's Revenge) . Unless you mean Gundam Wannabe, I mean Wing, then you're spot on(in which case, why are you watching anything not UC anyway).

Transforming robot-jets. I don't know why you guys still get hard-ons for just regular old 'Mechs when the VF-1 Valkyrie and Starscream exist.

ShumaGorath wrote:You know all the episodes for it (and street sharks) are on youtube. Its amazing what you can get away with when its a property no one cares about

Hey man, Street Sharks are still jawesome.

stonefox wrote:Hey man, Street Sharks are still jawesome.

HATE(not the show, mind).

H.B.M.C. wrote:I've seen the first one on there. It ranks in the 'so bad its good' category for me.

BYE

The whole 14 episode series is like that. Invincible Clanners vs. tissue paper armored Inner Sphere 'Mechs. It really is awful.

It is also about 14 years old now, too.

Man I'm old.