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H.B.M.C. wrote:What did it do to you?

I had the Wolverine.

And it sucked. HARD.

I see this Griffin running around, blasting me with a PPC, and all I got is this dinky AC/5. Sure, if I get close I can do some more damage, but then that damn PPC can't miss!

I know there are other variants. But I never use a Wolverine unless I am forced. In fact, I almost never use the "Classic 55-tonners" because I don't really like any of them.

That's a shame, because there are some very good versions of the Wolverine. Not so much the Shadowhawk or the Griffin, but the Wolverine definitely.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'd get all three:

Current Intro
25th Ann
Clan

You've then got a reinforced Battalion of Inner Sphere 'Mechs (4 Companies + Command Lance), and a full Trinary of Clan 'Mechs (including one Nova of 5 'Mechs and 5 Points of Elementals).

The plastic miniatures aren't the highest quality in the world, but really that doesn't matter. Aside from a few bigger mould lines here and there they look good once painted, and with two of each type you can paint one set one colour and the other set another colour and have two distinct forces. With 67 'Mechs to start with you'll be playing a lot of games before you even think about buying another 'Mech.

As for what scenario to start with, the Introbox's scenario is a good one - Cicada & Enforcer vs Hermes & Hunchback. It's the one I first played and it changed the way I viewed the game completely - I played the side with the Cicada, but thought it was 'crap' because it had low armour and pathetic guns. I quickly learnt what speed in BTech was all about, and the Cicada is now one of my fav 'Mechs. In the Introbox, the Cicada config they give you for the demo scenario is simply the best Cicada variant ever made - decent armour, speedy, and great firepower. You'll respect what it can do by the end.

How is speed best used in this case? It seems good to move to cover, gain a 'hard to hit' bonus etc. But with crap guns... what's the use? Or is it due to good range? (haven't got the sheet with me here or i'd check)

Yesterday i did a one on one. Was hilarious. :p My Hunchback. (i think it was the hunchback -> humanoid one with a heavy las, small las and an autocannon) was pulverized for the most part.
Trying out the rules i ran forth as did my brother but only then i realized the difference in armaments. Exchanging fire my brother quickly gained the upperhand. All my hits were on his torso but he pretty much brought my head to 1 point, destroyed an arm, severely damaged another arm and a leg. Plus left and right torso halves went bye bye too. I backed away and was almost gone from the table while backstepping, when i fired a last shot with my autocannon. Hit the torso again and wrecked his mech! Hilarious.

My impression of the game was good so far i think i'll ask my brother to do do a 2 vs 2 before trying out the extended rules.

Small side question. In Total Warfare, am i correct that the basic rules are also included in it. Basically it has all the advanced rules but also the 'normal ones'?

Darthvegeta800 wrote:How is speed best used in this case? It seems good to move to cover, gain a 'hard to hit' bonus etc. But with crap guns... what's the use? Or is it due to good range? (haven't got the sheet with me here or i'd check)

Speed means higher target numbers. The faster you go, the harder it is for them to hit you. The Cicada has a movement of 8/12, it's one of the fastest 'Mechs around and really damnd fast for a Medium 'Mech. Let's assume for a second that you move 12 in a straight line - that's a +4 modifier right there. So if your opponent has Gunnery 4, he's at 8 To Hit before you even factor in the range between you, whether he moved or not, and any cover that might be there.

Now speed is no substitute for armour - a Dasher moving 20 hexes in a single turn, granting it a +5 modifier, will die horribly if an AC/20 slug hits it anywhere - but if you don't have much armour, speed is what you need to survive. Slow things with long-ranged weapons should be sitting in cover. Fast things, regardless of whether they have good armour of not, should be moving.

Now let's take a look at the Cicada. The original version presented in the 4th Edition Intro Rules was CDA-2A Cicada. 8/12 movement, only 64 points of armour, and packing 2 Medium Lasers and a Small Laser. It was a slash-attack 'Mech, run past, fire guns, run away, come back in for another pass next turn. In the current Introbox, the one you have, the Cicada is the CDA-3MA Cicada. It retains it's 8/12 movement, has over twice the armour (136), keeps both Medium Lasers, upgrades te Small Laser to a Small Pulse Laser and gains a Snub-Nosed PPC, one of the coolest BTech weapons they've invented in a while. Best of all, the 'Mech is heat neutral. It's total weapons heat from an Alpha Strike is 18, and running it maxes out at 20 heat, which is exactly what its 10 Double Heat Sinks can handle. This machine is dangerous. It's downside is that it has an XL engine, and you'll understand why that can be a liability when you start using critical hits and internal system damage, but aside from that one minor point, this machine is a major improvement over every version of the Cicada to come before it.

You don't even need to move the full 12 to get that +4 modifier with the Cicada. You only need to move 10, so you can actually use your last three hexes of movement (10, 11 and 12) to move into a Heavy Woods, which grants a +2 modifier. So that's a +6 (!) modifier before they factor in range, their own movement and any other cover that might be there. And all you suffer for that is a +2 for running.

Darthvegeta800 wrote:Yesterday i did a one on one. Was hilarious. :p My Hunchback. (i think it was the hunchback -> humanoid one with a heavy las, small las and an autocannon) was pulverized for the most part.

I think you're thinking of the Enforcer. Enforcer has a heavy autocannon (AC/10), Large Laser and a Small Laser, and can jump. The Hunchback can't jump, but has two Medium Lasers, a single Small Laser and a super-heavy autocannon (AC/20).

Darthvegeta800 wrote:Trying out the rules i ran forth as did my brother but only then i realized the difference in armaments. Exchanging fire my brother quickly gained the upperhand. All my hits were on his torso but he pretty much brought my head to 1 point, destroyed an arm, severely damaged another arm and a leg. Plus left and right torso halves went bye bye too. I backed away and was almost gone from the table while backstepping, when i fired a last shot with my autocannon. Hit the torso again and wrecked his mech! Hilarious.

That's what happens! 'Mechs are tenacious things. I once had a Ryoken, a Clan Omni-Mech and easily my fav 'Mech in the whole game (also one of the best 'Mechs in the game, and probably the best Medium 'Mech ever conceived), have one side of its body torn off. I lost my UAC20, my engine took two hits so I was generating 10 extra heat per turn, and I was surrounded, quite literally, but about 8 other 'Mechs. I kept going, ignoring them all to focus on the target I had chosen. I hunted that 'Mech down, despite taking even more firepower, and killed it. Next turn I ran into a really big Assault 'Mech and died horribly, but I had killed my target heroically, and even managed to kill a Commando in a single shot (UAC20 + Commando = Dead Commando).

Darthvegeta800 wrote:My impression of the game was good so far i think i'll ask my brother to do do a 2 vs 2 before trying out the extended rules.

As I said, try out the actual demo mission with the quick-start record sheets they give you - Hunchback + Hermes vs Cicada + Enforcer. It's a good game, and will teach each player the value of different types of weapon systems, movement modes, and the roles of armour vs speed.

Darthvegeta800 wrote:Small side question. In Total Warfare, am i correct that the basic rules are also included in it. Basically it has all the advanced rules but also the 'normal ones'?

What you have with the Intro Box is both the 'quick start' rules and the standard rules of 'Mech combat in BTech (so internal structure, critical hits, advanced weapons and so on). Total Warfare has all of that, plus it expands everything in the introbox rules by including vehicles, infantry, battle armour, protomechs, aerospace, heaps of more advanced weapon systems and things like that.

Aah well we did the startup scenario. But i believe it only spoke of position the first 2 mechs. In any case we'll do a 2 vs 2 soon.

So with the speedy one it's best to run, shoot, run away next turn, shoot, run away. And if possible try to move into a forest and let him them come?

We'll expand towards Davion and Kurita. Given the fact i love the DC fluff and the fact we have the 4 set boosters and the book that comes with it.

I do have a question in regards to that. i'm very fond of painting and after a few games i plan to do just that. Question is... what would be a good division for the minis. Which would best go to Kurita and which to Davion, to avoid unbalancing things option-wise for one side.

Thanks for all the info btw!

That's a more difficult question.

This topic's come up about a dozen times over on the CBT.com boards, so I'll let Mattlov handle this one.

*puts up the Mattlov Signal*

Shouldn't be long.

Had another question too.
What decals would be best to buy for the factions of Sword and Dragon.
In the book itself it looks like Sorenson's Sabers don't use their own emblem (with the explosion) on their mechs, just the DC symbol and that of the 5 the Sword of Light.
Fox's Teeth however just use the Davion emblem and their own symbol but not that of 7th Crucis Lancers.

Is this correct?

That I can answer, or at least point you in the right direction.

You want to find out the correct paint and symbol schemes? CamoSpecs is the place to go. They've got virtually every unit in the game painted up in some form or another, and include all their insignias and whatnot.

As for the decals themselves, Fighting Pirannha have just about everything you can think of.

Well i know both sites. Plan to buy the decals from Pirannha.

But Camospecs and Sword and Dragon seem somewhat contradictory in the emblems used.
The Sabres seem to vary in which combination is used.
And on Camospecs the regimental symbol is not seen on the Tooth's. In fact in the booklet they just seem to wear the Fox Tooth symbol and the basic Davion symbol.

That could be because McKinnon's Raiders are an independant command, so while they are technically part of the regiment, they don't operate under its authority and can essentially do what they want (or whatever the First Prince tells them to do).

*nods*
So basically... for them i just order whatever i feel like?

For the Fox's Teeth: The unit tooth emblem and the davion emblem decals.

For the Sabres: Kurita emblem, 5th Sword of Light AND unit decals (if there are any as i don't see the explosion symbol of the Sabres available on that site)

Question:

I have some mechs that are about 20 years old, from Fasa. Are they compatable with Iron Wind or the Starter set miniatures? Im seriously thinking about getting my lance back out, maybe drag my kids along (were having a BLAST with my old copies of MW3 and 4 on local and LAN play). Are the Iron Wind metals better quality than the old FASA ones? The plastic on the Fasa minis is sxtremely brittle (maybe even a blue resin instead of plastic?). After 20+ years of sitting on my shelf just base coated, I just finished airbrushing my 1:32 scale Madcat, will have to post pics when Im done adding badges etc.

Cool to see Battletech becoming popular again!

A lot of IWM models are just Ral Partha moulds the IWM got wen Ral Partha went out of business, so essentially the same. There are BTech minis that I own that are almost as old as I am!!!

If you can put up pics of the ones you have, I'm sure we can identify them.

LOL, I wont have any problems IDing them. Ive had them for 20 odd years. Just hoping that when placed on the table, they will be to scale.

Cant believe that at 39, Im looking to get back into Battletech LOL.....

I answer the Mattlov Signal!

Dividing the Intro 'Mechs into Davion and Kurita is easy for most of them:

Davion: Spider, Cicada, Vindicator, Enforcer, Dervish, JagerMech, Atlas,

Kurita: Commando, Jenner, Panther, Clint, Whitworth, Dragon, Catapult, Zeus, Banshee,

The other ones are either not common to either, or common enough to both that you should be able to pick among them to balance each other out.

Other: Assassin, Hermes II, Hunchback, Trebuchet, Quickdraw, Grasshopper, Awesome, Cyclops,

As you see, the Davions have the heavier stuff from the box, while the Kuritans have a lot of speed. So there is still some choice there.

I have some mechs that are about 20 years old, from Fasa. Are they compatable with Iron Wind or the Starter set miniatures? Im seriously thinking about getting my lance back out, maybe drag my kids along (were having a BLAST with my old copies of MW3 and 4 on local and LAN play). Are the Iron Wind metals better quality than the old FASA ones? The plastic on the Fasa minis is sxtremely brittle (maybe even a blue resin instead of plastic?). After 20+ years of sitting on my shelf just base coated, I just finished airbrushing my 1:32 scale Madcat, will have to post pics when Im done adding badges etc.

Other than the intro box everything is pewter (we stopped making lead stuff). The most recent minis have started to trend larger, but if you play on a mapsheet it isn't an issue. The old FASA 3rd Edition plastics are actually vinyl, which is why they suck so bad.

Mattlov wrote:I answer the Mattlov Signal!

Dividing the Intro 'Mechs into Davion and Kurita is easy for most of them:

Davion: Spider, Cicada, Vindicator, Enforcer, Dervish, JagerMech, Atlas,

Kurita: Commando, Jenner, Panther, Clint, Whitworth, Dragon, Catapult, Zeus, Banshee,

The other ones are either not common to either, or common enough to both that you should be able to pick among them to balance each other out.

Other: Assassin, Hermes II, Hunchback, Trebuchet, Quickdraw, Grasshopper, Awesome, Cyclops,

I kind of disagree on some of the mechs I also base on 3025 tech

Spider: Anyone pretty much
Cicada: More known as a Marik Mech. Both houses are equally distant.
Vindicator: Liao mech, more likely to be found in a Davion unit than Kurita unit.
Enforcer: Davion mech
Dervish: Either could have, but more known as a Davion mech
Jagermech: Davion mech
Atlas: Anyone can have pretty much.
Dragon: Kurita mech
Commando: Steiner mech. Either could have.
Jenner:Kurita mech
Panther:Kurita Mech
Clint: This is more known as a Marik mech if memory serves. Either could have.
Whitworth: Generic mech, but more of a Kurita mech
Catapult: Generic mech, but I would put in the Kurita side
Zeus: Steiner mech. Either could have
Banshee: Steiner mech. Either could have
Assassin: Generic mech
Hermes II: Marik Mech. Either could have.
Hunchback: Generic mech
Trebuchet: Generic mech, but I would put more on the Kurita side
Quickdraw: Generic mech, but more of a Kurtia
Grasshopper: Generic mech
Awesome: Generic mech
Cyclops: Generic mech

My thoughts:
Kurita: Spider, Jenner, Panther, Clint, Whitworth, Trebuchet, Dragon, Quickdraw, Catapult, Grasshopper, Cyclops, Banshee
Davion: Commando, Cicada, Assassin, Hermes II, Vindicator, Enforcer, Hunchback, Dervish, Jagermech, Zeus, Awesome, Atlas

One thing to consider: Davions like Autocannons(especially, 2 and 10 class), Kurita likes PPC's and LRM's.

H.B.M.C. wrote:A lot of IWM models are just Ral Partha moulds the IWM got when Ral Partha went out of business, so essentially the same.

Yes, they're the same. Mike Noe, the founder of Iron Wind Metals was the general manager at Ral Partha so they're the same moulds Partha was using.

SWEET!

What about the Mechwarrior clix models? My local shop only carries Clix Mechwarrior, none of the Catalyst lab stock. How out of "scale" are the Clix models?

They're big. The infantry, as it happens, are perfect scale, but the rest are a little big. And most of them are pretty ugly too.

Spacemanvic wrote:SWEET!

What about the Mechwarrior clix models? My local shop only carries Clix Mechwarrior, none of the Catalyst lab stock. How out of "scale" are the Clix models?

Battletech theoretically scales at about 1/285 or 1/300, while the click version is about 1/144.

So click versions are generally about twice the size, but some are upwards of 3 times the size of the pewter version.

Also note that a fair number of the plastic clix 'mechs have not made their 'in-universe' debut yet.

Mattlov wrote:

Achilles wrote:And it shows in the 'classic' robot jox look of the battletech minis.

If you want a good Mecha game... play Heavy Gear.

I can't describe how heavily I am mocking you right now.

Battletech is THE gold standard of small scale mecha combat games. When you have a game that is 25 years old now and had ONE major rules update, you are doing pretty darn well for yourself.

We also have suspender-wearing men with Jerry Garcia beards behind us. We cannot fail.

Except for the early designs being either shameless ripoffs of Robotech and other famous mechs, or hideous boxes drawn by 8th graders. And just because it had one rules update does not equal good. The rules have lots of holes, just like in the first edition where you could build a clan mechwarrior who could not be hit by any innersphere mechs if he ran, but could hit them back.

I would say Battletech has an interesting background and rules that allow lots of customization and campaigns, where as 40k is more heavy into the army vs. army aspect with no RPG elements.

And of course one could claim that Heavy Gear is a ripoff of Armoured Trooper VOTOMS just as easily. Whatever...

Given the two images that you've linked to, it's a much more spurious claim than pointing out that four Battletech 'Mech are photocopies of Macross Valkyrie variants.

Not really. FASA claims they had the rights to use those images whereas I'm assuming the DP9 didn't get the rights to make their 'gears look so much like the VOTOMS. Either claim is suprious and getting quite old and tiresome.

As I type this I'm playing 3 green triaing scenarios in a row.(I'm playing against myself) In the first game The Hunchback charged the Enforcer, which did nothing but blaze away at the Hunchback. The Enforcer missied alot. The Hunchback blew the Enforcer to bits with it's AC 20. In 2 hits it killed it! The seconed game I changed tactics, This time I would run and gun. I'n the seconed game the Hunchback nailed the Enforcer with it's last AC 20 slug bringing the it's total win's to 2. In the third game the Enforcer blew the AC20 off the Hunchback The Enforcer than shot it to pieces. 2-1 Things I learened today 1.AC 20's are scary! 2. Speed=Life but dosen't replace armor. 3.AC 20's are scary! I love Battletech!

Durandal wrote:Except for the early designs being either shameless ripoffs of Robotech and other famous mechs...

In order for something to be a 'ripoff', there has to be intent behind it. You have to intend to rip something off. In BattleTech's case they knew they were designs from other various Japanese sources because they were lisenced from these sources. It's really bloody difficult to rip something off when you've been given permission to copy it.

Nurglitch wrote:Battletech 'Mech are photocopies of Macross Valkyrie variants

They were the exact same artwork because they were meant to be the exact same artwork. Why do people still have trouble with this concept?

Not to mention WH40K borrows heavily from a lot of things though indirectly. (regarding a prior comment)
Everything is inspired by other things.
Though the Unnamed would be a bit over the top had it been intentional. But if it's legal i can live with it. Command Pod from Robotech actually kinda suits the setting.

And it's a moot point anyway because they now hold the lisence to those images again.

dragonfire wrote:As I type this I'm playing 3 green triaing scenarios in a row.(I'm playing against myself) In the first game The Hunchback charged the Enforcer, which did nothing but blaze away at the Hunchback. The Enforcer missied alot. The Hunchback blew the Enforcer to bits with it's AC 20. In 2 hits it killed it! The seconed game I changed tactics, This time I would run and gun. I'n the seconed game the Hunchback nailed the Enforcer with it's last AC 20 slug bringing the it's total win's to 2. In the third game the Enforcer blew the AC20 off the Hunchback The Enforcer than shot it to pieces. 2-1 Things I learened today 1.AC 20's are scary! 2. Speed=Life but dosen't replace armor. 3.AC 20's are scary! I love Battletech!

Yes, the AC/20 is a great equalizer. Get a Hunchback to short range against ANYTHING and the target worries about it. A LOT.