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Ok got it, mybad I wear a medium vest I didnt even think about the larger ones

Black_Templars97 wrote:Ok got it, mybad I wear a medium vest I didnt even think about the larger ones

No prob. I'm 6'4", 260lbs so the opposite applies when I'm thinking about sizes of stuff.

OT and on a side note, the IOTV seems to be better balanced so the weight doesn't feel as bad.

Yea well shoot I tried to make an example and failed, but for what its worth I do play sisters with my black templars and when they are fighting togeather they dont seem to diffrent they just look like a bunch of angry monks and nuns in power armour

Black_Templars97 wrote:Yea well shoot I tried to make an example and failed, but for what its worth I do play sisters with my black templars and when they are fighting togeather they dont seem to diffrent they just look like a bunch of angry monks and nuns in power armour

Well, celibacy will do that to you.

Indeed good sir.... hey you dont think that celibacy between the 2, makes them fight harder do you lmao gives them the ability to get the Black Rage

I thought they were maed of the same material.



Automatically Appended Next Post:


Thing is, the armour doesn't have to be the same size for it to give the same protection. Therefore you could easily say that SoB power armour is just a scaled-down version of SM power armour, and offers the same protection due to the materials it's made of.

The Sororitas don't have vows of celibacy, which probably drives the Black Templar that more frothing mad.

That depends on the Order in specific. Some are bound to be far more stringent.

Reproduction is not a sin in the Imperium, however. Nor is homosexuality, either (most people just look the other way when relationships like that happens).

Remember, equal opportunity oppressor.

Well, considering even the "liberal" Orders are usually too full of righteous indignation and furious anger (i.e. piss and vinegar) to bother with that sort of thing, I doubt it comes up that often.

That depends. I can imagine a Canoness preaching humble service to the Emperor-- in fact, I think that's what they should be preaching in their best times. Pride comes before a fall, and all of that. The Sisters need to be humble, so that they might watch the Ecclesiarchy and find the corruption within.

So would we all agree that sisters do indeed get thier 3+ save.

Of course they GET their 3+ save... this thread is about the looks.

You can't really tell what material SOB power armor appears to be made of or how it varies when compared to Marine power armor. From a look stand point marine armor is bulky because marines are bulky. So that bulkiness can't be the sole basis. There can also be a number of other explanations for bulkiness such as marine armor being 100% pressurized while SOB armor only provides full pressurization and resporation to the head with the remainder of armor relatively unsealed.

In Inquisitor (54mm) there were a number of ways different power armor was differentiated. Marine armor had different additional layers of abblative armor added to protect against different specialized weapons, while more basic armor worn by inquisitors didn't. This I imagine is much the same with SOB armor. They have more basic power armor.

There are also three components to what makes power armor a suit of "power armor" in the 40k universe. First it is a suit of heavy plates, second is an exoskeletol suit that supplements the wearers strength and supports the plates, third is a low level energy field that is channeled through the ceri-metal plates.

The protection of the armor relies on the first and last and could likely vary weight and protection based on the dependence of the two. The support frame of the armor can also vary the size and load, if the frame is designed only to support the suit as opposed to surpassing the average users strength to supplement it, that would impact bulk.

The next reason why there is a difference is scale. With heroic scale different proportions are accentuated differently for male and female models. The artwork is largely guided by the miniatures such that if a true scale were used SOB could veyr well appear bulkier.

The final reason I see that there can be such a large difference in how "power armor" is represented is the numerical scale 40K uses. The armor scale from 2 to 5. In Inquisitor (54mm), the more detailed rules which generally run by percentile (1-100), place almost a 20 point gap between the most basic power armor and marine power armor. So in 40k a very broad deffinition is being used to apply the armor save.

aka_mythos wrote:In Inquisitor (54mm) there were a number of ways different power armor was differentiated. Marine armor had different additional layers of abblative armor added to protect against different specialized weapons, while more basic armor worn by inquisitors didn't. This I imagine is much the same with SOB armor. They have more basic power armor.

Nope, that's quite wrong. It's canon that Sisters armor provides the same protection as Astartes armor.

Whether that makes sense or not, it is canon.

what does the rpg say about the armor since i'm guessing they have a bit more variation than the 5 classes in 40k? and melissia, the inquisitor game is just as canon as 40k and the officially licensed rpg. there is no one source of "canon".

warboss: C:WH specifically says "[Sororitas Power Armor] provides the same degree of protection as Astartes power armor" on page 19 of the codex in fact. That is a very clear-cut and unambiguous statement. Inquisitor may be canon, but even as much as a I respect Inquisitor and Dark Heresy as fluff sources (I even appreciate DoW2 as a canon source in a sense, noting that it varies from standard deployments for the sake of gameplay), I'll still take information in a codex as generally a bit more accurate because they were released directly by GW rather than licensed.

Its true it does say it in the WH bible

jake wrote:Why are we using Marine armor as the standard for 3+? Lets use a crisis suit instead. It's obviously bigger and bulkier, so must represent the top of the 3+ range. Hell, next to a crisis suit, space marine armor maybe looks like it grants a 4+. Maybe.

I've edited some comments to illustrate my point:

"While the Space Marines look beautiful, the armour does not match the fluff. It roughly looks equivalent to Banshee or Fire Warrior armor. Due to this I voted 4+."

"I think it looks like they would get a 4+ save. The armor looks just a tad lighter than a Crisis Suit, plus the fact that marines are not wearing mechanized battle suits that are able to take as much punishment as Crisis Suit."

"I have a really tough time understanding how anyone can think the Marine armor, which is very obviously much smaller than a Crisis suit, confers the same bonuses. The tau look like they're slogging along in a dumpster."

"Anywho, I'm in the camp with them looking like 4+ but being 3+ because there'd be no point in playing them if they were 4+. "

"4+: it's noticeably lighter and less protection than a Crisis suit"

"I voted 4+, simply because it just doesn't look as bulky to me as a Crisis Suit does"

"They are covered in armor but are physically incapable of wearing the layers of protection. If Crisis Suit armor was so light that marines could wear an equivalent, then everyone in the 40K universe should be 3+. "

"Now does their armour look like it grants 3+ Sv? Honestly, not really. Crisis suits grants3+ saves because of the thick plating and the shape of the armour which is designed to deflect projectiles not just to stop them. If you look at Marine armour, we see that the plating isn't clearly as thick"


Hmm...

i will tell you why they all have the same save in fluff terms.


Crisis suit armor is made out of composite alloys and reactive armor plates and is incredibily thick. the suits pilot is in a fetal position inside the torso protected by at least 8 inches of the armor. it is not anywhere close to the hardness of Ceramite and Adamantium, but the thickness of the armor makes it roughely equal.


Sister and marine armor has roughly the same amount of Ceramite and adamantium. therefore a 3+ save. Marine armor is bulkier because marines are bulkier AND the suits have extra life support systems.

It is not whether they are made of the same material. It is the visual aesthetics and fluff not matching.

I can have a kevelar vest that is 3" thick or one that is 1" thick. If all other things are equal the thinner vest will not afford the same level of protection as the thicker one.

Sisters Power armor is obviously lighter and thinner than SM Power armour yet the game doesn't reflect this.

No one is trying to take away the Sisters 3+ save. We are asking that GW puts some love and thought into the next sculpts and model designs.

My work puts me around Full Plate Armour constantly. Experience tells me that, while the sister models are pretty, the armour itself would either be cloth or the sisters would all have to be anorexic elves in order to fit the scale of the current models.

Heh, I just had the mental flash of GW being sued for promoting unrealistic body images to girls.

focusedfire wrote:Sisters Power armor is obviously lighter and thinner than SM Power armour yet the game doesn't reflect this.

No, it quite simply is not. No matter how much I generally dislike C:WH, it's still canon, and it still says that Sororitas Power Armor provides the same protection as Astartes power armor.

Therefor it does. It might not look like it, but it still does. It may make no logical sense, but it still does.


Also, the reason Sisters armor would weigh less is because Sisters themselves are smaller and not as muscle-bound as Astartes to begin with. What with lacking three feet in height compared to Astartes and all that.


I agree that it needs to be re-worked to look better, but I will still point out that anyone who wants to argue that Sisters armor doesn't protect as well is wrong, and I love to be contrary and also right.

Well I did say somthing in this post awhile back that says maybe the armour save just dosnt account for the armour but other factors. like mobility and camo or other things because if every one thinks the sisters are not looking right then the vindicare assassin should look like a kasrkin with all the armour plates and stuff.

Luke_Prowler wrote:You've got to remember that Space marine armor is bulky because space marines themselves are bulky. Power armor used by normal humans is much smaller compared to the walking refrigerators

Space Marines aren't bulkier in their shoulders and knees and shins to fill out that armor. Unless they are absurdly malformed Chaos-weirdos. You can look at the shoulder plates and see how thick the armor is.

focusedfire wrote:

No one is trying to take away the Sisters 3+ save. We are asking that GW puts some love and thought into the next sculpts and model designsD

I rather like the sisters models. and I think they are some of GW's coolest models, and have aged rather well.

That being said I think if GW follows the trend it has been on of adding copious amounts of "bling", iconography, wings, halos, ornamentation and sundry other OTT detailing that new SOB models could be the coolest and most detailed GW models to date.

Notice I said "could" be. That assumes GW ever commits to giving the SOB the attention (and codex) their cool concept deserves.

If I was a betting man I'd wager that the SOB will NOT get new models as a whole, and a plastic multi-pose kit is but a pipe dream.

In fact a safer bet would be that they will be "squatted".

I hope I'm wrong...

And Sisters shoulderplates are oversized, too, just in a different manner.

assemble a marine model, but leave the pauldrons off.

he will have fairly normal proportions.

Melissia wrote:Nope, that's quite wrong. It's canon that Sisters armor provides the same protection as Astartes armor. Whether that makes sense or not, it is canon.

In 40k there is no real canon every edition has changed fluff that preceeded it. I have most books since Rogue Trader and the number of stories that have changed over the years can't be counted.

Inquisitor the 54mm game was made by GW. Dark Heresy the RPG was made by GW as well. They just let another company publish it rather than let it die. Both say there are differences in power armor and that is reasonable. I'd say if anything those two fluff driven books intended for older audience would be more reasonably realistic and cannon than a single sentence in a codex for a game that is much less detail oriented.

Melissia wrote:warboss: C:WH specifically says "[Sororitas Power Armor] provides the same degree of protection as Astartes power armor" on page 19 of the codex in fact. That is a very clear-cut and unambiguous statement. Inquisitor may be canon, but even as much as a I respect Inquisitor and Dark Heresy as fluff sources (I even appreciate DoW2 as a canon source in a sense, noting that it varies from standard deployments for the sake of gameplay), I'll still take information in a codex as generally a bit more accurate because they were released directly by GW rather than licensed.

It may say that "it provides the same degree of protection" but that isn't clear cut. You are reading into it what you want. There is no context and the degree to which the statement is correct is broad. For example an armored humvee door may provide the same level of protection as the best bullet proof vest against rifles, but in the context of fragmentary grenades its not necessarily the case. In Inquisitor the way power armor was dealt with was Marine power armor offered the same level of protection as SoB armor, but that the head, shoulders, and torso had an ablative plate that boosted that protection for the first hit, after which that portion of the body was only protected by the basic power amor. The difference between marine armor SoB armor is the equivalent of stacking some sand bags on a tank, nothing so significant as to say SoB isn't generally as protected as a Marine.

There are other possibilities that keeps the SoB codex statement true and are just as valid. For example some area of SoB armor might be reinforced while other are reduced in weight and protection. Overall they'd both be equally protective but in the details of it different.

It is 100% clear there are differences between SoB and Marine power armor. I gave many reasons for why they could reasonably be different. Only one of them this is fuzzy. But each can stand on its own as justification enough. All of which agree with the notion that SoB armor is "power armor" and warrants 3+ saves.

CT GAMER wrote:I rather like the sisters models. and I think they are some of GW's coolest models, and have aged rather well.

I do, too-- except for the chest/abdomen region, which does not fit with the rest of the armor and is ugly to boot.

CT GAMER wrote:In fact a safer bet would be that they will be "squatted".

No, that is not really a safe bet. Jervis Johnson has repeatedly gone on record saying that Sisters will be getting their own codex, focusing on them . It might have some Inquisitorial bits in it, but it will focus on the Sisters first and foremost. Just like the Grey Knights codex.

You are reading into it what you want.

And somehow you aren't? You don't want the armor to provide the same amount of protection, and therefor that is what you read into the sentence apparently? Because I can apply this logic to your own post if you really want to insist on using it.

Well maybe if we cut the heads of the sister models and put them on space marines then they would have the armour save of 3.... they would also have enough armour to cover up any womanly parts, so no more I heart boobie post will show up any more, then every one will have to agree on that they will look like they have armour save of 3...... right?

Melissia wrote:
No, that is not really a safe bet. Jervis Johnson has repeatedly gone on record saying that Sisters will be getting their own codex, focusing on them . It might have some Inquisitorial bits in it, but it will focus on the Sisters first and foremost. Just like the Grey Knights codex.

And GW would never lie to save their bottom line, would they?

I have 4 words for you, "It's not Space Hulk."

focusedfire wrote:It is not whether they are made of the same material. It is the visual aesthetics and fluff not matching.

I can have a kevelar vest that is 3" thick or one that is 1" thick. If all other things are equal the thinner vest will not afford the same level of protection as the thicker one.

Sisters Power armor is obviously lighter and thinner than SM Power armour yet the game doesn't reflect this.

No one is trying to take away the Sisters 3+ save. We are asking that GW puts some love and thought into the next sculpts and model designs.

My work puts me around Full Plate Armour constantly. Experience tells me that, while the sister models are pretty, the armour itself would either be cloth or the sisters would all have to be anorexic elves in order to fit the scale of the current models.

Heh, I just had the mental flash of GW being sued for promoting unrealistic body images to girls.

Finally someone that is sticking to the point of this thread.
We're are meant to be discussing if the LOOK of sisters in fact reflect their 3+ Sv.
So far most of the discussion seems to revolve around the assumption that SoB should lose their +3 Sv, which is not what the OP intended.

Also, SM armour is not only bulkier than SoB armour because the SM themselves are physically bulkier, but also because marine armour has extra components to increase the protection of the user.
SM have had millennia to perfect their armour, while SoB had much less time.
There's plenty of information on this explaining how the PA have evolved. From simply adding extra plating to protect cables to the insertion of re-breathers and gyrostabilisers. Also the design has suffered minor alterations so its shape deflects projectiles rather than stop them (that's why marine armour is so curved) and as it was said by melissia on another thread SoB armour fails in doing this because of the cups, which instead of deflecting bullets away from the sister they funnel the bullets into the chest putting much more strain into the chest plate to stop the bullet.

Again, I feel that this discussion has been going the wrong way the problem isn't SoB having 3+ Sv. but how that protection is represented on the models.

As a sidenote, one should never compare PA with tau armour, the technology is completely different. Saying that Tau should have better saves than marines because their crisis suits cover their whole body is the same as saying that a medieval knight in full plate armour has better save than a guardsmen when any weapon in the 40k universe would pierce plate like it would a piece of paper.