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Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Actually, I think the Crux Terminus is part of Terminator armor and as far as I can tell the honor guard are not wearing terminator armor. The only reason the get the 2+ save is because their armor is artificer armor there is no 5+ invulnerable.

Crus is on the shoulder as it says in the space marine codex.

Necrosis wrote:

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Actually, I think the Crux Terminus is part of Terminator armor and as far as I can tell the honor guard are not wearing terminator armor. The only reason the get the 2+ save is because their armor is artificer armor there is no 5+ invulnerable.

Crus is on the shoulder as it says in the space marine codex.

Hmmm, crazy i just looked and I didn't see it on any of the figs.

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
Hmmm, crazy i just looked and I didn't see it on any of the figs.

Well its on page 102 of the space marine codex.

Kroothawk wrote:[snip]

A bad translation in the German codex does not make for fluff. The fact remains that the Repentia do not have the Adepta Sororitas special rule. Furthermore, here's something straight out of C:WH about the Repentia:

These sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle

Chiming in on behalf of the sisters.

was it stated that the sisters armor is smaller because it doesn't incorporate all the additional benefits that the Astrates armor does. such as the strength enhancement etc.

but I do agree, this armour they currently have is more of a Carapace with full hazardous protection. its need to look a tad bit more like armour

Necrosis wrote:the 5+ invu save comes from the Trux Terminas on their shoulder plate. Thus my point is not mute.

um, where does it say the invul save is from the crux? in 3rd edition, you could buy terminator honors (which was modelled with the same crux which is also worn by regular power armor marines according to the fluff) for your veteran sergeants and they certainly didn't get an invul save from it. in fact, in 3rd edition, terminators didn't initially even get an invul save period... they had to add that in a white dwarf article because the 40pt models died too easily. moot.

warboss wrote:
um, where does it say the invul save is from the crux? in 3rd edition, you could buy terminator honors (which was modelled with the same crux which is also worn by regular power armor marines according to the fluff) for your veteran sergeants and they certainly didn't get an invul save from it. in fact, in 3rd edition, terminators didn't initially even get an invul save period... they had to add that in a white dwarf article because the 40pt models died too easily. moot.

Please see my previous posts. The 5th edition codex makes it clear on page 102.

Yes, it's 3+ for me.

Do you want it to be realistic? Then play FoW.

If SoB would have the same armour than a marine, they should have the same profile, and they would not be the beatiful and appealing female minis that they were. I said were because 15 years later they can be done much better. If they design them now with a manly armour, they stick the new codex up in their

Necrosis wrote:

warboss wrote:
um, where does it say the invul save is from the crux? in 3rd edition, you could buy terminator honors (which was modelled with the same crux which is also worn by regular power armor marines according to the fluff) for your veteran sergeants and they certainly didn't get an invul save from it. in fact, in 3rd edition, terminators didn't initially even get an invul save period... they had to add that in a white dwarf article because the 40pt models died too easily. moot.

Please see my previous posts. The 5th edition codex makes it clear on page 102.

hmm.... i stand corrected... and disgusted. "ward saves" don't belong in 40k. that explanation is definitely a 5th edition addition to the lore of the space marine.

I think it's actually a force field but that's just my thoughts.

Their armour is smaller because they're smaller, and their armour lacks the interfaces and optimizations that SM armour has. Without the black carapace, their's no need to fit all that extra junk in the armour anyway.

I think their armour fits just fine.

Melissia wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:[snip]

A bad translation in the German codex does not make for fluff. The fact remains that the Repentia do not have the Adepta Sororitas special rule. Furthermore, here's something straight out of C:WH about the Repentia:

These sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle

Daemons in the CSM codex don't have the Daemon rule. . .or even the Daemonkin rule. Are they not daemons?

That is irrelevant given the quote I gave-- part of the Repentia fluff blurb, pulled directly out of Codex :Witch Hunters.

The two of them combined make it quite clear, and the fact that they're both in the same codex even moreso.

Melissia wrote:That is irrelevant given the quote I gave-- part of the Repentia fluff blurb, pulled directly out of Codex :Witch Hunters.

The two of them combined make it quite clear, and the fact that they're both in the same codex even moreso.

They are not irrelevant. You continue to bring up the fact that they do not have the Sisters Sororitas special rule, hence my post.

puma713 wrote:

Melissia wrote:That is irrelevant given the quote I gave-- part of the Repentia fluff blurb, pulled directly out of Codex :Witch Hunters.

The two of them combined make it quite clear, and the fact that they're both in the same codex even moreso.

They are not irrelevant. You continue to bring up the fact that they do not have the Sisters Sororitas special rule, hence my post.

Both your points are irrelevant. The 4+ plus save is suppose to represent their ability not to feel pain. The reason they didn't give them the feel no pain rule is cause it didn't exist in that time.

Necrosis wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Melissia wrote:That is irrelevant given the quote I gave-- part of the Repentia fluff blurb, pulled directly out of Codex :Witch Hunters.

The two of them combined make it quite clear, and the fact that they're both in the same codex even moreso.

They are not irrelevant. You continue to bring up the fact that they do not have the Sisters Sororitas special rule, hence my post.

Both your points are irrelevant. The 4+ plus save is suppose to represent their ability not to feel pain. The reason they didn't give them the feel no pain rule is cause it didn't exist in that time.

I don't think we were even talking about the armor save, but whether or not Sisters Repentia are a part of Sisters Sororitas. But thanks for your input

puma713 wrote:

Melissia wrote:That is irrelevant given the quote I gave-- part of the Repentia fluff blurb, pulled directly out of Codex :Witch Hunters.

The two of them combined make it quite clear, and the fact that they're both in the same codex even moreso.

They are not irrelevant. You continue to bring up the fact that they do not have the Sisters Sororitas special rule, hence my post.

No, I didn't. I said they do not have the Adepta Sororitas special rule. Which, by the way, they do not.

This rule is what defines an infantry unit as part of the Sisters of Battle in the codex, because it has units from three separate factions (Inquisition,n Ecclesiarchy, and Sisters). The Adepta Sororitas special rule represents belonging to the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas, and grants Shield of Faith and the ability to use Acts of Faith. What units have this rule?

Adepta Sororitas Heroine
Celestian Squad
Battle Sisters Squad
Seraphim Squad
Dominion Squad
Retributor Squad

Not, however, Repentia. As they do not have this rule, and are described as OUTCASTS in the fluff blurb, they are quite clearly not part of the Sisters of Battle; they were, but upon joining the Repentia are no more.

Erasoketa wrote:
If SoB would have the same armour than a marine, they should have the same profile, and they would not be the beatiful and appealing female minis that they were. I said were because 15 years later they can be done much better. If they design them now with a manly armour, they stick the new codex up in their

I'm not advocating making them look like men. But why do they have to be beautiful and appealing in order for you to like them? I don't get that at all. Not all of the male miniatures look like Playgirl poster-boys. Why should all the females be beautiful?

Besides, quite a few of the miniatures aren't attractive anyway. They have... man-jaw syndrome... at least it's hard to paint them not to have it.

Melissia wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Melissia wrote:That is irrelevant given the quote I gave-- part of the Repentia fluff blurb, pulled directly out of Codex :Witch Hunters.

The two of them combined make it quite clear, and the fact that they're both in the same codex even moreso.

They are not irrelevant. You continue to bring up the fact that they do not have the Sisters Sororitas special rule, hence my post.

No, I didn't. I said they do not have the Adepta Sororitas special rule. Which, by the way, they do not.

Did we not just say the same thing? Edit: Nevermind, I see the distinction. I obviously meant Adepta Sororitas.

Melissia wrote:This rule is what defines an infantry unit as part of the Sisters of Battle in the codex, because it has units from three separate factions (Inquisition,n Ecclesiarchy, and Sisters). The Adepta Sororitas special rule represents belonging to the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas, and grants Shield of Faith and the ability to use Acts of Faith. What units have this rule?

And this is my point. You're saying that because something does (or in this case, doesn't) have a rule, it must be (or can't be) something else. Hence, the daemons (or daemonkin, at least) example. Maybe Mephiston isn't a named character after all, since he doesn't have the Independent Character rule and is not an upgrade character, and those are the only two types of character, per the BGB.

Melissia wrote:Not, however, Repentia. As they do not have this rule, and are described as OUTCASTS in the fluff blurb, they are quite clearly not part of the Sisters of Battle; they were, but upon joining the Repentia are no more.

I'm not disagreeing with this, actually. All I'm really disagreeing with is using rules to describe fluff or vice versa. Which, by the way, is where this whole conversation started - the rules being defined by "fluff" or "modelling". While not in the strict sense a "Sister of Battle", since they are at the peak of reverence by their fellow sisters, I would say that they had ascended to a plane which the other sisters of battle aspire to, hence making them a sister of battle, of sorts. By giving themselves entirely to the Emperor, they remove themselves (sometimes willingly), but being in a state of grace and being a model for the rest of the Sisters, I'd say that they have more weight as a Sister than not as one, outcasts or not.

Eldar Pathfinders are outcasts, but they're still Eldar. Sisters Repentia may be outcasts, but they're still Sisters. Otherwise, just call them Repentia.

And, in a sense, I am actually agreeing with you here. I think Sisters should have a 3+ save. Why? Because the codex talks about how alike their armor is to a marines? Because it's big and bulky and should have a 3+ save? No, because the rules say that they do.

I voted 4+, simply because it just doesn't look as bulky to me as Marine Armor does, though the lack of support systems fully explains that and at least they are fully covered, unlike most war games.

I would imagine that the only way to explain the massive size of the SM's shoulder and leg pieces would be to contain mechanical strength augmentators, and various coolants and batteries.

Same for the massive hunched backs of terminator armour.

To all who have posted and fought about this:

40k and it's races and technology do not actually exist.

It's ALL fluff, and it's ALL made to look cool/sell. So look has ZERO to do with stat line. If it says 3+, it's 3+, there is no such thing as "looking 3+"

That's pretty much where the argument ends.

Nightsbane wrote:To all who have posted and fought about this:

40k and it's races and technology do not actually exist.

It's ALL fluff, and it's ALL made to look cool/sell. So look has ZERO to do with stat line. If it says 3+, it's 3+, there is no such thing as "looking 3+"

That's pretty much where the argument ends.

Damn, it's not letting me put up the Heresy symbol. One is seriously needed here.

puma713 wrote:And this is my point.

If that is your point, your point is logically fallacious because that was not my entire argument.

The fact that Sisters Repentia are specifically discluded from having the Adepta Sororitas special rule, while still being in the same codex as all other units that have it, combined with the fluff blurb that says they're outcasts, makes it quite clear that they are not part of the Sisters of Battle .It is not any single one of these facts but all of them put together. None of them would actually prove it on their own, technically speaking-- but combined, they make a very good argument.

And THAT is why your comparison to daemons is just inane at best.

Nightsbane wrote:To all who have posted and fought about this:

40k and it's races and technology do not actually exist.

It's ALL fluff, and it's ALL made to look cool/sell. So look has ZERO to do with stat line. If it says 3+, it's 3+, there is no such thing as "looking 3+"

That's pretty much where the argument ends.

You know, for someone with such a smart avatar, you fail to see the point of this thread.

Melissia wrote:

puma713 wrote:And this is my point.

If that is your point, your point is logically fallacious because that was not my entire argument.

The fact that Sisters Repentia are specifically discluded from having the Adepta Sororitas special rule, while still being in the same codex as all other units that have it, combined with the fluff blurb that says they're outcasts, makes it quite clear that they are not part of the Sisters of Battle .It is not any single one of these facts but all of them put together. None of them would actually prove it on their own, technically speaking-- but combined, they make a very good argument.

And THAT is why your comparison to daemons is just inane at best.

I did read your posts. And your argument began with the Adepta Sororitas rule. It was the first thing in your reply to Kroothawk. You didn't actually quote the fluff until later. You mentioned the fact that they are outcasts, but that was it. Then you went into the fluff part of it. Then, once again, you used the "Adepta Sororitas rule" defense against Kroothawk, calling his "translation" (don't you mean GW's translation?) a "bad one" because it didn't match yours. In fact, he had a good point, even about the fluff:

Kroothawk wrote:The short fluff text explains that Repentia is a way to repent within the organisation in contrast to complete outcasts.

You see, fluff can mean something different to you, to Kroothawk, to me and to anyone else that reads it. That's what fluff does - it is fiction that you bring a part of yourself to, just like a novel, or a movie or a play.

But hey, I suppose you're not reading my posts either. Maybe I should "damn" more in them and it wouldn't filter out. I said that I don't agree with the using of rules to verify fluff and vice versa. However, since you're focusing on your own argument and not what I was even getting at, I suppose I'll save my typing for other topics.

Melissia wrote:Half the models of Sisters have helmets. Just because a player decides not to use them doesn't mean anything. Marines have fewer helmets than Sisters.

Furthermore, repentia suck, and nobody uses them. Repentia are just about the worst unit in the game, if not the defacto worst unit.

99.9% of the time I'm on your side with your thoughts on Sisters, but it's not that Repentia suck it's that they are hard to use right. My good buddy picked up some and HATES them till after much prodding he tried them VS an Ultramarine player. They cover hopped and killed.....2 Rhinos, a Vindy, a TW-lascannon/Missile Dread, and Iron Clad and a Land Raider and for the game tie..killed the 3 of 5 Scouts on the OBJ to steal the Win from the Ultras. He rolled butt loads of 6's for his Rage and Diff Terrain tests it was a fluke......but it Ultra player had to pick his jaw,mini's and ego off the table. I was even thinking....crap....what would I do if I had to deal with that unit. 15 with a Mistress and a Priest. The armor other then the walkers didn't move so autohits but that means the priests didn't really need to be there. It's the synergy of the right unit in the right place at the right time (and a crap ton of 6's don't hurt). I hated Kroot some people love them.....does that make them crap or killer? It's just options. Just my thoughts on a unit that has some use if used right. If your Land Raider get's killed on your turn 2 to a lucky shot and all it got to do it move up with no targets to shoot at....does it mean they suck? Almost every unit has a use, some are more easy to see then others.

warboss wrote:this line up of different 40k imperial troopers show's my opinion. the fluff doesn't say that the SOB armor is any more advanced than a marine's mk8 armor yet is supposed to provide the same protection as the noticeably heavier and bulkier marine's armor. while i agree that the fluff says they have full 3+ power armor, the models don't in my opinion. gw chose sexy over protection in the case of SOB when they didn't have to. it's entirely possible to have believable 3+ armor and still be sexy.

The image from this post is a good indicator of scale for the marine, but isn't quite true to what the power armor should look like for the Sister unless she's like 5 feet tall without the armor.

Irrelevant of what the appearance is, it's been mentioned before in this thread that the Space Marine looks bulkier because he is bulkier, naturally. Without his armor he's close to 7-8 feet tall, and probably around 300 pounds of solid muscle and bone, along with a variety of implants. The sister is just a human wearing power armor.

And despite it's appearance, or what it may be crafted to resemble, she IS wearing power armor, and irregardless of her size it grants her the same protection as it would a space marine; he just has other things going in his favor to help keep him alive. The models show a clearer image of what the sisters' armor looks like and resembles, and has a good heft and bulk to it that the drawing simply does not show.

OT: nice pic of Samus btw.

Anarchyman99 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Half the models of Sisters have helmets. Just because a player decides not to use them doesn't mean anything. Marines have fewer helmets than Sisters.

Furthermore, repentia suck, and nobody uses them. Repentia are just about the worst unit in the game, if not the defacto worst unit.

99.9% of the time I'm on your side with your thoughts on Sisters, but it's not that Repentia suck it's that they are hard to use right. My good buddy picked up some and HATES them till after much prodding he tried them VS an Ultramarine player. They cover hopped and killed.....2 Rhinos, a Vindy, a TW-lascannon/Missile Dread, and Iron Clad and a Land Raider and for the game tie..killed the 3 of 5 Scouts on the OBJ to steal the Win from the Ultras. He rolled butt loads of 6's for his Rage and Diff Terrain tests it was a fluke......but it Ultra player had to pick his jaw,mini's and ego off the table. I was even thinking....crap....what would I do if I had to deal with that unit. 15 with a Mistress and a Priest. The armor other then the walkers didn't move so autohits but that means the priests didn't really need to be there. It's the synergy of the right unit in the right place at the right time (and a crap ton of 6's don't hurt). I hated Kroot some people love them.....does that make them crap or killer? It's just options. Just my thoughts on a unit that has some use if used right. If your Land Raider get's killed on your turn 2 to a lucky shot and all it got to do it move up with no targets to shoot at....does it mean they suck? Almost every unit has a use, some are more easy to see then others.

That's the danger of the interwebs. You'll have 10 people telling you your unit sucks while 10 other people telling you its great. The best way, imo, to gauge what a unit will do is see if they fit into your list (and as you pointed out, your playstyle) and then use them. Use them for a game or two. See how people react and see if you can work that into a game. 40K is about mistakes. Whoever makes the least of them wins. A surprise unit can do just that - cause mistakes. If people aren't used to seeing things like Repentia, they may not know what to do against them. It's all in how you field your army and how you play. No two generals are the same and no two lists are the same.

You like a unit? Field it. If it doesn't work, take it out. But don't pass on it simply because someone else tells you it sucks. You be the judge.