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puma713 wrote:You like a unit? Field it. If it doesn't work, take it out. But don't pass on it simply because someone else tells you it sucks. You be the judge.

Spot on....I used Biovore in both the 3rd and 4th Ed Tyranid books and still do.....I used it for fun and the love of the unit.

Quite coincidentally I do not recommend googling the phrase "Slaanesh Marine".

Fafnir wrote:

Nightsbane wrote:To all who have posted and fought about this:

40k and it's races and technology do not actually exist.

It's ALL fluff, and it's ALL made to look cool/sell. So look has ZERO to do with stat line. If it says 3+, it's 3+, there is no such thing as "looking 3+"

That's pretty much where the argument ends.

You know, for someone with such a smart avatar, you fail to see the point of this thread.

Anyone who gets anything from my avatar should realize how stupid this conversation is. Should we next talk about if the carnifex shell REALLY looks like it fits it's saves? Let's continue to argue the validity of imaginary creatures and factions. Not a single thought went into what these things SHOULD look like, but would they COULD look like and sell. The end.

Melissia wrote:Repentia aren't Sisters.

GW Website wrote:Sisters Repentia

Confession and penance are part of a Sister's everyday existence, those who fall short of the rigorous codes may find themselves banded into groups and led into battle in an attempt to earn redemption.

This set contains 3 metal Sisters Repentia.

Unit Composition: Mistress and 4-19 Sisters Repentia.

Melissia wrote:A bad translation in the German codex does not make for fluff. The fact remains that the Repentia do not have the Adepta Sororitas special rule. Furthermore, here's something straight out of C:WH about the Repentia:

These sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle

Sisters Repentia don't have the Adepta Sororitas special rule. Correct.
Sisters Repentia aren't sisters. Wrong (proof: UK GW website http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1300165&prodId=prod1080202).

As Melissia can't admit being wrong once and continues to unfairly exploit the fact that the English WH pdf isn't released yet, can I ask someone else to give the English quotes from rule ("Unit composition: Mistress and 4-19 Sororitas") and fluff texts (esp the part "...find themselves outcast of the Order OR in groups supplied with ceremonical eviscerators ..."?).

BTW Sisters Dialogous and Sisters Hospitaller from the Inquisitor retinue are also members of the Adepta Sororitas (page 11: Civil Orders) without having the special rule. So much for mixing up rules with fluff.

Power armour is an advanced compostie ceramic and metal in the fluff - that, not necessarily the thickness of the armour, is what grants the save. Hence it is a 3+, as they ARE wearing power armour -they have the plasma reactor on the back to prove it! It just only has some of the fibre bundle muscles, presumably doesnt integrate into the marine as much due to a lack of the black carapace, etc.

However with their power armour a marine can run at speed for days at a time - something a sister could not do. Which is fine, as all we're discussing is armour save in a 7 turn (so minutes) long battle.

THe other issue is: its a D6 system. If you had D100 like, oooh, Dark Heresy, you could more accurately represent the differences. So a marine may have an armour bonus of 8 to their toughness, while "light" power armour may only give an armour bonus of 7 - while artificer armour may be 10.

"Crux Terminatus" btw - supposed to contain a holy relic or item. This faith is what gives an invulnerable save - although it containing a small forcefield generator, like the marine 4+ save items, is likely

Terminators bulk is also secondary to the armour save, as tehy can survive longer periods in vacuum and is meant to be more resilient to repeated strikes in the same place, hence the thickness. Remember: terminator armour was designed for breaching ships and corridor fighting. Pushing forwards into a confined space is far more wearing on armour than being able to freely run and dodge, so to accomplish the same task requires more and more.

I agree. The D6 system does not provide enough variation to reflect the different types of armours theoretically presented.

However, Toughness is used as a supplement, so SMs are less likely to be killed than SoBs even though their armour is in theory the same stuff and grants a 3+ save in both cases.

CynthiaCM wrote:

Erasoketa wrote:
If SoB would have the same armour than a marine, they should have the same profile, and they would not be the beatiful and appealing female minis that they were. I said were because 15 years later they can be done much better. If they design them now with a manly armour, they stick the new codex up in their

I'm not advocating making them look like men. But why do they have to be beautiful and appealing in order for you to like them? I don't get that at all. Not all of the male miniatures look like Playgirl poster-boys. Why should all the females be beautiful?

To be visually appealing for the gamers. I don't say they need to show skin like many Reaper minis, just be some more femenine for the sake of variety. Most popular army is SM. If I were looking for a secondary army and the old metal minis were like SM, I wouldn't have started SoB. I would have tryed any other chapter with newer rules, or any other race. Yeah, I guess not all the male minis are "hot jocks". But many of them are cool minis. Gui le Gross (an old Bretonian character honoring Fray Tuck from Robin Hood) was ace. The canoness and Saint Celestine minis are anything but beatifull for me. But both of them have tons of character, and I own 2 of each. I want to use one of the Saint Celestines to make a small conversion of Saint Sabbat.

Melissia wrote:Besides, quite a few of the miniatures aren't attractive anyway. They have... man-jaw syndrome... at least it's hard to paint them not to have it.

Well, when they were made they were cuter than Orks and bald screaming SMs. It's true that their faces and their static poses haven't aged very good. But there are uglier sisters than the battle sisters. That one with a ponytail and a bolt pistol that was made for Inquisitor. Fugly face. As I said in my previous post, they can be done much better now.


On the armours topic. Flak armour are just a couple of plates in chest and shoulders. Caparace armour is the same kind of armour extended full body. Power armour is a much heavier armour wich needs servos and a power source to be used. Flak and caparace could be represented by a light metal or something similar to kevlar. And I think the minis really look like that. Powerarmours could be represented by a much heavier metal. And I think they are! Both space marines and sisters of battle. And the DH Inquisitors. Maybe the limbs of the SoB are thinner than the Kasrkin or Stormtroopers's limbs. But SoB armour seems thiker metal wich cover the full limbs, while Kasrkin and Stormtroopers look like kevlar or a thinner metal covering the front parts of the limbs.

Cadians, Valhallans and Catachans don't have the same amount of armour in their minis, but have the same save roll. So what? Who cares? They are generic Imperial Guard troopers.

Exactly - the combination of stats is what allows the complexity that a D6 alone lacks.

So Weapon Skill combines with iniative to show both your defensive skills and offensive abilities. Toughness and Armour save combine to show how difficult it is to hurt you - which is what Dark Heresy directly shows with the toughness bonus reduction on wounds taken, which stacks with your armour.

So light power armour gives a 3+ save, but the sister is easier to wound in the first place - indicating that the shot, even if stopped by the armour, may have still caused internal damage, ala broken ribs from kevlar stopping a bullet from going inside your body. Still hurt you, just not as badly - which is what 40k is representing, however abstractly, with the T/W/Save system.

agnosto wrote:I never understood how these get a 4+ save:

I met Graham McNeil at a Games Day a few years back and asked him about this... The reason Repentia completely suck is because they were initially envisioned as a sort of Sister's terminator, complete with 2+ save. When they saw the models, they knew they couldn't justify a 2+ save, and knocked it down to 4+, figuring it was their faith in the Emperor that afforded them that much. Of course, with a 2+ save, they might just make it across the battlefield and survive some enemy hits to be able to use those chainswords...

I would just like to point out the leather armor used by many native tribes versus the bamboo armor of the Samurai. While the leather armors were actually thicker, and more dense, they are in no way comparible to samurai slat bamboo armor, which is powerful based off the structural strength and slopping curves/angles. Bulky, thicker, more armor, does not neccessarily confer a better strength armor. Perhaps the power armor they wear can follow slightly better deflection curves due to the fact they aren't muscles with legs. I truly have no opinion on the matter. I can come up with as many reasons they do and don't look like they have a 3+.

OT

Samurai armour is made of steel plates.

It's possible some may have been made of bamboo as a light parade armour. I've never heard of it being regular issue.

The outer shell was made of steel, the inside was compressed bamboo. All the steel did was slow down penetration and add to deflection, over 90% of the armor was bamboo, compressed via a steaming, flattening then shaping procedure. This is how the earliest Samurai armor was made, before the samurai died off, they did eventually get to a nearly full steel armor, but that was much later then the period I am describing/referencing.

On samurai:
While Helmet and chest armour were often made of metal, most other parts of the armour were not:



On Repentia:
In my Codex they are always referred to as Sisters or Sororitas (Latin for sisters). And I don't believe Melissia that all this is a translation error and that the English Codex uses something different, esp. as the UK website doesn't. And they stay part of the same Ordo Militant they originate from according to the small fluff text.
Why don't they have the Adepta Sororitas special rule? Repenting Sisters are in no position to ask the God Emperor for a small wonder (Acts of Faith) to stay alive. Simple as that.

On Graham McNeil:
They could have given them a 2+ ward save due to divine protection.

I do. Because I have the goddamned codex in front of me. They are referred to as Sisters Repentia, NEVER as Sororitas or Adepta Sororitas, and are considered outcasts.

Kroothawk wrote:On Repentia:
In my Codex they are always referred to as Sisters or Sororitas (Latin for sisters). And I don't believe Melissia that all this is a translation error and that the English Codex uses something different, esp. as the UK website doesn't. And they stay part of the same Ordo Militant they originate from according to the small fluff text.
Why don't they have the Adepta Sororitas special rule? Repenting Sisters are in no position to ask the God Emperor for a small wonder (Acts of Faith) to stay alive. Simple as that.

On Graham McNeil:
They could have given them a 2+ ward save due to divine protection.

If they are not in position to ask Acts of Faith then they shouldn't be in position to ask for divine protection

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:I would just like to point out the leather armor used by many native tribes versus the bamboo armor of the Samurai. While the leather armors were actually thicker, and more dense, they are in no way comparible to samurai slat bamboo armor, which is powerful based off the structural strength and slopping curves/angles. .

I'll go OT here:
I'm sorry but you're wrong about the samurai armor. The tanko and keiko (4th - 6th century) were a completely metal cuirass that opened like a clam shell. Later, the style of armor changed to something like what you're thinking about called o-yoroi, which used 4 sets of kozane which were metal plates. It looks like cloth, leather and bamboo because it's covered with an apron called a tsurubashiri which they used to keep bowstrings from being caught up in the armor plates.

For D&D nerds, the best armor would be equivalent to a breastplate while the worst would be scale mail.

Yeah, I loves me some Japanese history...

Back on topic:
Is it possible to get the same protection in a smaller package? Not really. Even if you're talking about the same material; armor, even modern day, is designed to be used in layers not as one complete package. I'd compare SoB and C:SM armor as follows..
C:SM armor:


Layers and layers of armor with chainmail under it all. The reason being that a genetically modified man is strong enough to carry around this equipment and the layers of protection necessary to provide an equivalent 3+ (in game terms) protection.

SoB on the other hand would be more like this:


They are covered in armor but are physically incapable of wearing the layers of protection. If SM armor was so light that SoB could wear an equivalent, then everyone in the 40K universe should be 3+.

Rules trump fluff. The fluff means nothing, they have make the rules so that people would actually want to buy the pretty models they make. Fluff is just there for added spice and has no bearing on actual rules in the game.

They are covered in armor but are physically incapable of wearing the layers of protection.

That's why they use powered armor. Duh.

Sisters of Battle wear power armor, which provides the same amount of protection as Astartes armor, but without having the same level of strength-enhancement and life support that it has. It obviously still has SOME strength enhancement, however, because Sisters are able to move around in their heavy suits of armor carrying heavy bolters and firing them as accurately as Marines do. It also has some features Marine armor doesn't have, such as, and I quote, "psycho-occular buffering", which effects the human mind allowing it to stay focused even in a combat situation. Sororitas helmets improve their combat effectiveness quite a bit. Along with "full-spectrum filtering" amongst other things. Technobabble is lovely.

Found an English Codex.

They are indeed referred to as Sisters (with capital "S") in both rule and fluff texts as I claimed. The relevant fluff text goes like this:

Codex Witch Hunters wrote:Confession and penance are part of a Sister's everyday existence, and those who fall short of the Sisterhood's rigorous codes may, in the most extreme of cases, find themselves exiled from their Order or banded into groups armed with the mighty ceremonial eviscerators and led into battle by the harsh mistresses. Indeed, through a deep seated desire to seek the Emperor's grace, some may willingly exile themselves, finding fault in the smallest imagined transgression. These Sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle, yet at the same time are revered by their Sisters, who see them as pilgrims seeking that what can only be found in death - absolution.(emphasis by me)

So wrongdoers are either exiled from the Order or (not exiled from the Order and) put into Sister Repentia squads. They are always refered to as Sisters (and seen as such by the other Sisters) which qualifies them as members of the Sisterhood.

So common sense, GW website, Lexicanum ( http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sisters_Repentia ) AND the English Codex all agree, that Sisters Repentia are Sisters.

They are referred to as Sisters Repentia, and OUTCASTS (apparently you didn't see fit to emphasize that part). Not Sisters of Battle

Rather then straighten you out on Samurais armor and further derail this thread, read this. your Japanese history is lacking, stay away from wikipedia please.

http://www.quanonline.com/military/military_reference/japanese/samurai_armor.html

Melissia wrote: Duh.

How mature.

Melissia wrote:
Sisters of Battle wear power armor, which provides the same amount of protection as Astartes armor, but without having the same level of strength-enhancement and life support that it has. It obviously still has SOME strength enhancement, however, because Sisters are able to move around in their heavy suits of armor carrying heavy bolters and firing them as accurately as Marines do. It also has some features Marine armor doesn't have, such as, and I quote, "psycho-occular buffering", which effects the human mind allowing it to stay focused even in a combat situation. Sororitas helmets improve their combat effectiveness quite a bit. Along with "full-spectrum filtering" amongst other things. Technobabble is lovely.

Why aren't they strength 4 if they can wear heavy armor AND carry a heavy bolter? The argument is that the armor produces enough strength enhancement to allow them to wear it; it's now that they can wear this heavy armor and carry a heavy weapon?

Necromunda Heavys carry heavy weapons without using power armours.

agnosto wrote:

Melissia wrote:
Sisters of Battle wear power armor, which provides the same amount of protection as Astartes armor, but without having the same level of strength-enhancement and life support that it has. It obviously still has SOME strength enhancement, however, because Sisters are able to move around in their heavy suits of armor carrying heavy bolters and firing them as accurately as Marines do. It also has some features Marine armor doesn't have, such as, and I quote, "psycho-occular buffering", which effects the human mind allowing it to stay focused even in a combat situation. Sororitas helmets improve their combat effectiveness quite a bit. Along with "full-spectrum filtering" amongst other things. Technobabble is lovely.

Why aren't they strength 4 if they can wear heavy armor AND carry a heavy bolter? The argument is that the armor produces enough strength enhancement to allow them to wear it; it's now that they can wear this heavy armor and carry a heavy weapon?

Erasoketa wrote:Necromunda Heavys carry heavy weapons without using power armours.

That and RL soldiers can carry rocket launchers by themselves. Not to mention the amount of firepower man carried guns have.

OH NOES! REALISM IN GAMES! (Beat you to it )

Melissia wrote:Repentia aren't Sisters.

Sisters Repentia are Sisters. Simple as that.

Those "banded into groups armed with the mighty ceremonial eviscerators and led into battle by the harsh mistresses" (i.e. Sisters Repentia) are not exiled from the Order so still members of the Order, as this is the alternative to exile. Whether those outcasts later in the text are Sisters Repentia or not (the text leaves it open), they are still called Sisters and seen as Sisters by their fellow Sisters, so are Sisters.

Lexicanum: "A Sisters Repentia Squad is an unit of the Adepta Sororitas and part of a Witch Hunters army."
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sisters_Repentia

But in the end, I must accept that not everyone is informed about and interested in the official Adepta Sororitas background, so I leave it at that, so not to further derail this thread with off-topic discussion. Personally I would be glad to get new insights to the background of my favorite armies, but obviously others fight new insights with every fibre of their body.

Slarg232 wrote:

OH NOES! REALISM IN GAMES! (Beat you to it )

Realism? I beg to differ. In WW2 machine guns were carried in teams because there's no way 1 man could carry a heavy weapon and the ammunition.

According to US Army Field Manual 3-21.8 (Infantry Rifle Platoon and Squad) a typical United States Army fireteam consists of four soldiers:
Team Leader: Equipped with the M16 rifle or M4 carbine.
Rifleman: They are equipped with the M16 rifle or M4 carbine. The rifleman is usually assigned with the grenadier to help balance the firepower capabilities of the automatic rifleman.
Grenadier: Equipped with an M4/M16 with the M203 grenade launcher (or newer M320 grenade launcher) slung under the barrel.
Automatic Rifleman: provides suppressive fire; equipped with M249 Squad Automatic Weapon.

They'll share the ammo load because a loaded SAW weighs about 22lbs and ammo isn't light. We're talking 200 round belts in a weapon that has a minimal 750 rpm rof.... not to mention STANAGs for when the damn thing jams... A heavy bolter, something that fires explosive shells basically, would weigh much much more as would the ammo.

If you want realism in 40k, limit the amount of ammunition models can fire because there's no way even a space marine can hump enough HB ammo for an entire battle at the rate of fire a HB uses it up; I don't care if he has a backpack of it.

agnosto wrote:Why aren't they strength 4 if they can wear heavy armor AND carry a heavy bolter? The argument is that the armor produces enough strength enhancement to allow them to wear it; it's now that they can wear this heavy armor and carry a heavy weapon?

Why are scouts strength four outside of power armor?

Sisters aren't strength four because they are humans, not Marines. By the way, necromunda gangers use civilian-model heavy bolters, IE, smaller ones of lower caliber than those used by the Imperial Guard, Sisters, and Astartes.

SoB were designed with heavy weapons in their hips just because Necromunda heavies like the Orlocks were a success. Sister were popular too. And after that two good critiques, GW changed the SM from shoulder weapons to hip weapons.

Trying to justify everything in a fictional universe that has grown and changed by sells numbers is a nosense.

Rule of cool.

Melissia wrote:Sisters aren't strength four because they are humans, not Marines. By the way, necromunda gangers use civilian-model heavy bolters, IE, smaller ones of lower caliber than those used by the Imperial Guard, Sisters, and Astartes.

Right but you also said that they get a bit of strength from the power armor so that they can carry it around. Pick up a piece of ceramic pottery and put a couple of pounds of steel inside, now imagine that on your entire body. Now carry a 40 pound weapon and 100+ pounds of ammo.

Like I've said from the beginning. You can try to reason with fluff all you want but it's not fluff that makes the rules. They're 140 pound women carrying 200+ pounds of weapons and gear; it doesn't matter how much fluff you throw at it, it doesn't make sense. Even a complete, powered exo-skeleton would only reduce that to like 60pounds (I'm guessing here). Let's just admit that they made the rules so the unit would be functional and call it a day.

agnosto wrote:

Melissia wrote:Sisters aren't strength four because they are humans, not Marines. By the way, necromunda gangers use civilian-model heavy bolters, IE, smaller ones of lower caliber than those used by the Imperial Guard, Sisters, and Astartes.

Right but you also said that they get a bit of strength from the power armor so that they can carry it around. Pick up a piece of ceramic pottery and put a couple of pounds of steel inside, now imagine that on your entire body. Now carry a 40 pound weapon and 100+ pounds of ammo.

Yes, and if Sisters can do this with S3, and yet Marines OUTSIDE of their armor are S4... it rather clearly shows just how much stronger Marines are than humans, right?

"Strength 3" is a very wide variance of strength levels. Untrained conscripts are strength three-- basically what amounts to an average civilian. So are Orks, and Eldar, and Tyranid Gaunts, and Tau, and...

warboss wrote:

Melissia wrote:What it looks like is irrelevant. Sisters wear power armor.

half right, half wrong. yes, they do wear power armor BUT what it looks like is relevant. this is a visual medium and a SMALL portion of the 40k player base likes to see well sculpted painted models that accurately depict the fluff.

Fixed that for you.

Every thread I have ever seen on Dakka Dakka about females and their armor has quickly devolved into "I HEART BOOBS111"