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The only reason people have an issue w/ Sisters having a 3+ save is they feel it threatens their precious pansy marines in some fashion. Honestly, if you want to discuss the armor values of models then also discuss why SM models are the same height as IG despite the fluff saying they are 7-8' tall superhumans. What a useless discussion.

Rymafyr wrote:The only reason people have an issue w/ Sisters having a 3+ save is they feel it threatens their precious pansy marines in some fashion. Honestly, if you want to discuss the armor values of models then also discuss why SM models are the same height as IG despite the fluff saying they are 7-8' tall superhumans. What a useless discussion.

It's the armor that makes them lose 1-2 feet. You know, how a camera can add on 10 pounds...

Anywho, I'm in the camp with them looking like 4+ but being 3+ because there'd be no point in playing them if they were 4+.

Will GW make them 4+? Yes, they will; just as soon as I tell them they can sell more models by doing it that way for the next codex...

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:I think it looks like they would get a 4+ save. The armor looks just a tad lighter than marine armor plus the fact that sisters are not gene enhanced killing machines with bodies able to take as much punishment as an astartes. And while we are on the subject of armor saves whats up with IG vets. getting 4+ saves? Are they like the equivalent scouts in an SM army?

The Carapace armor you can upgrade vets with is the same thing that Scouts wear.

Hey my big carnifex only gets a 3 plus. I think the armor would work by deflecting hits rather than absorbing them. Or maybe they disperse energy in some way. Or maybe it's just awesome dark age tech. Or maybe they are crazy church folk that can change every rule in the book using faith

Rymafyr wrote:The only reason people have an issue w/ Sisters having a 3+ save is they feel it threatens their precious pansy marines in some fashion. Honestly, if you want to discuss the armor values of models then also discuss why SM models are the same height as IG despite the fluff saying they are 7-8' tall superhumans. What a useless discussion.

feel free to ignore the discussion instead of posting useless messages in it. also, defending one modelling inadequacy/error with another doesn't help either. i'd prefer that marines were modelled true scale also but that's not the purpose of this thread; we're discussing true armor nuns.

Rymafyr wrote:why SM models are the same height as IG despite the fluff saying they are 7-8' tall superhumans

Yeah, but that would make them bigger and the models would cost more.

When I first saw Warhammer, some decades ago, I just didn't get it. I was like, okay, this is the year 40k. They got tanks and laser guns and can blast stuff from space. Then why the hell is everyone running around with chainsaws and no helmets? It made no sense to me as a kid so I didn't play it. Then someone wise once told me, it's best not to think about the logic of Warhammer too much. Once you realize it's a whole big pile of suspend your disbelief in order to make stuff look cool, you're fine.

They're 3+ save because that's what the game designers felt the army needed.
They got flimsy-pretty armor because that's what the sculptor thought looked cool and would sell.

There suits don't seem to cover that much, but I put 4+ just because it looks hard enough.

Erm, what? They cover the entire body...

Melissia wrote:Erm, what? They cover the entire body...

It just looks imcompte to be 3+.

I think part of the problem is getting Armor confused with Toughness and Strength, which GW doesn't always make clear either. But I think the justification goes like this.

Marines are physically huge, muscley, and hard to hurt. This is reflected in their Toughness and Strength. But Armor isn't about how tough you are. If you can shrug off a bullet wound you're tough. If your armor can stop that bullet wound, you have a good armor save. At least, this is how GW describes these stats. But in the fluff, Marine's Armor also enhances their Strength and Toughness, which is why it's so big and bulky. I think it muddies the water quite a bit when you try to figure out how power armor enhances stats in the game world, though. Does their physiology get them to about T3.5 and the armor gets it over the hill to T4? I'm not a fluff expert, so I don't know.

Sisters are not genetically engineered marines, and so they don't have increased Toughness and Strength, and are regular person size. Their version of power armor doesn't seem to do much to enhance their Toughness or Strength, at least not enough to raise it from 3 to 4. Maybe if they did half-stats they'd be 3.5. Who knows. The "power" part of the "power armor" seems definitely much diminished compared to marines though. The "armor" part of the "power armor" is supposedly just as good as the marines get. So the question is assuming we accept that they CAN make armor that is just as good as marine armor but without a lot of the "power," does the Sisters' armor look like it's the same armor-wise but not S- or T-wise?

I think it does, because I assume that most of the space inside a marine's power armor is taken up by secondary systems (air, strength, etc) and the marine himself, and the armor is actually a small layer on top.

frameshift wrote:I think part of the problem is getting Armor confused with Toughness and Strength, which GW doesn't always make clear either. But I think the justification goes like this.

Marines are physically huge, muscley, and hard to hurt. This is reflected in their Toughness and Strength. But Armor isn't about how tough you are. If you can shrug off a bullet wound you're tough. If your armor can stop that bullet wound, you have a good armor save. At least, this is how GW describes these stats. But in the fluff, Marine's Armor also enhances their Strength and Toughness, which is why it's so big and bulky. I think it muddies the water quite a bit when you try to figure out how power armor enhances stats in the game world, though. Does their physiology get them to about T3.5 and the armor gets it over the hill to T4? I'm not a fluff expert, so I don't know.

Sisters are not genetically engineered marines, and so they don't have increased Toughness and Strength, and are regular person size. Their version of power armor doesn't seem to do much to enhance their Toughness or Strength, at least not enough to raise it from 3 to 4. Maybe if they did half-stats they'd be 3.5. Who knows. The "power" part of the "power armor" seems definitely much diminished compared to marines though. The "armor" part of the "power armor" is supposedly just as good as the marines get. So the question is assuming we accept that they CAN make armor that is just as good as marine armor but without a lot of the "power," does the Sisters' armor look like it's the same armor-wise but not S- or T-wise?

I think it does, because I assume that most of the space inside a marine's power armor is taken up by secondary systems (air, strength, etc) and the marine himself, and the armor is actually a small layer on top.

This, I Always thought that marines looked bulkier because of the genetic enhancement they got make it necessary to bulk out their Armour so they could actual fit inside it. While sisters, being your ordinary or garden variety humans wouldn't need such modifications to their equipment.

Another example of this would be their bolters, marines and Sisters use different variants of the weapons, because the marines bolter has to be scale up to him so he can wield it effectively, he'd probably get his finger stuck in the sister's and the sisters wouldn't be able carry his.

It's simply the re-sizing of equipment to fit the user.

EDIT: Fixed my spelling.

On page 19 of the Witch Hunters codex, it talks about the Sister's armour. Basically while it provides the same level of protection, it lacks many of the life support systems and strength enhancing systems that are found in the marine armour. To me this explains helps the smaller figure of the sisters, besides the fact that mariners are 7 foot tall supermen.

It lacks many of the systems, but not all of them. If it lacked all of them, Sisters would hardly be able to move at all. Power armor, even light power armor (IE, civilian models) are friggin' heavy.

I'm in the camp that the majority of the SM's bulk is the Marine. Power Armor is still fully functional at much smaller scale so the SoB's should get 3+. Honestly I would support GW if they tried to make them a little more sexy, a 3+ save with an exposed mid-section? Yes please!

On this note why aren't any of the 'Space Nuns' who go around the galaxy punishing the 'Bad Boys' of the universe carrying a whip? Or even handcuffs? You would think they would arrest at least one person :p.

Why couldn't the sisters always be using a little faith too boost their save up beyond what it would normally be. Combine that with them taking a more defensive fighting stance and it all works.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:On this note why aren't any of the 'Space Nuns' who go around the galaxy punishing the 'Bad Boys' of the universe carrying a whip? :p.

ahem... *look below* first on the left...

I think the sculpts accurately convey a 3+ save... but just barely. I do hope that when (or if) Games Workshop creates new sculpts, they try to make them look a bit more imposing physically. Because, frankly, I can understand why many people feel that the appearance may not warrant a 3+ save. They need to drop the whole "sexy" angle with their female models. "Sexy" is fine in its place, but we're dealing with a game about grim, desperate battles, so overtly sexy sculpts feel oddly out of place. To be fair, the actual Battle Sisters figs aren't so bad in that regard, but the Sisters Repentia, Death Cult Assassins, and the female Inquisitors look more like they're trying to be desirable than trying to kill the enemies of the Imperium. And I find that kind of sad.

I'm sure GW is does this because the player base consists primarily of males and they think that guys want eye candy rather than formidable looking female warriors. But I'm not sure I agree. It's my understanding that Sisters of Battle never exactly set the 40k world on fire. They've always been one of those fringe armies really. If guys wanted a bunch of hotties with guns, surely the SoB army would be much more prominent. Or potentially so, at least.

Melissia wrote:Repentia aren't Sisters.

Repentia ARE Sororitas, please check the Codex.

Repentia do not have the Adepta Sororitas special rule. They are outcasts. Usually having outcast themselves mind you, but outcasts nonetheless.

Their armor is unnecessarily sexualised, but it's still better than Space Marine power armor. At least the Sororitas have gothic armor that fits the Imperium's theme, Astartes armor is too smooth and cartoony.

I rate Space Marine's should get a 4+ armor save, 'cause their armor doesn't look like it couldn't withstand even a single box of Acme dynamite. Sororitas is definitely 3+, if only because it doesn't look like it could be made out of paper-mache as a primary school project.

Does this really look like a 3+ armour save?

or this?

or this?

See my point.

They have +3 because THEY HAVE FAITH IN DA EMPRAH

Norade wrote:Why couldn't the sisters always be using a little faith too boost their save up beyond what it would normally be. Combine that with them taking a more defensive fighting stance and it all works.

Because by this logic SM would all have 2+ saves. lol

Necrosis wrote:Does this really look like a 3+ armour save?

Yes?

Necrosis wrote:or this?

Yes!

Necrosis wrote:or this?

Certainly, I wouldn't even point a gun at him to begin with!

Necrosis wrote:See my point.

Not really? The first two examples are Eldar, who have superior technology to the Imperium. Their armor doesn't need to be as bulky, it's made of tougher stuff.

The third example is Straken, and his save doesn't represent that he wears lots of armor. It represents that he's made mostly of metal.

guardpiper wrote:On page 19 of the Witch Hunters codex, it talks about the Sister's armour. Basically while it provides the same level of protection, it lacks many of the life support systems and strength enhancing systems that are found in the marine armour.

Hey, that's what I said.

GW uses the terms Toughness and Armor close to interchangeably. The one word that strikes me as different is Toughness = resist and Armor = Avoid.

In other news, I think this thread will go on until Melissia convinces people that they should believe it looks 3+. Just like convincing people that blue should be their favorite color also works. So I think sisters should have no armor value at all, because it's made of cardboard. So the models should be painted cardboard-brown and include packing slips. They only gave them a 3+ save because of affirmative action.

Alright then do Honor Guard look like they should get the same save as a guy in Terminator Amour?

Those guys look like their wearing normal power armour yet have the same save as a guy in Terminator Armour/Marneus Calgar.

Necrosis wrote:Alright then do Honor Guard look like they should get the same save as a guy in Terminator Amour? Those guys look like their wearing normal power armour yet have the same save as a guy in Terminator Armour/Marneus Calgar.

they don't. they lack the 5+ invul so your example is moot. once again, using ANOTHER less than optimal modelling example doesn't excuse the first one.

Melissia wrote:Repentia aren't Sisters.

GW Website wrote:Sisters Repentia

Confession and penance are part of a Sister's everyday existence, those who fall short of the rigorous codes may find themselves banded into groups and led into battle in an attempt to earn redemption.

This set contains 3 metal Sisters Repentia.

Unit Composition: Mistress and 4-19 Sisters Repentia.

In the German Codex:

Unit Composition: Mistress and 4-19 Sororitas.
Weapons: (...) Each Sororita is armed with a ceremonical eviscerator.

The short fluff text explains that Repentia is a way to repent within the organisation in contrast to complete outcasts.

warboss wrote:

they don't. they lack the 5+ invul so your example is moot. once again, using ANOTHER less than optimal modelling example doesn't excuse the first one.

the 5+ invu save comes from the Trux Terminas on their shoulder plate. Thus my point is not mute.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:

Melissia wrote:Repentia aren't Sisters.

GW Website wrote:Sisters Repentia

Confession and penance are part of a Sister's everyday existence, those who fall short of the rigorous codes may find themselves banded into groups and led into battle in an attempt to earn redemption.

This set contains 3 metal Sisters Repentia.

Unit Composition: Mistress and 4-19 Sisters Repentia.

In the German Codex:

Unit Composition: Mistress and 4-19 Sororitas.
Weapons: (...) Each Sororita is armed with a ceremonical eviscerator.

4+ save is suppose to represent that they don't really feel pain. Thus this 4+ save will probably be replace by feel no pain in the next codex.

Actually, I think the Crux Terminus is part of Terminator armor and as far as I can tell the honor guard are not wearing terminator armor. The only reason the get the 2+ save is because their armor is artificer armor there is no 5+ invulnerable.