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people hate space marines,

Why doesn't everyone with a non-SM army refuse to play any Space Marines armies.

The SM players would have to play with themselves.

I really don't have a problem with Space Marines, I have a problem with them getting new chapter codeci when another race could have gotten one.
And also, grey knights getting a new codex is not a problem to me - partially since they haven't had an update for many, many years and partially because thay are really different compared to SM, while the other chapters with own codeci just have some differences which could have been in the vanilla codex.

'while the other chapters with own codeci just have some differences which could have been in the vanilla codex. '

+1 on this. GK at least have a major difference in look/style, not just a different paintjob

gmaleron wrote:Just was trying to inject some humor into this thread mates (and some imperial guard propaganda) , no need to think im trolling And the guard can do lightning strike assaults, its called blow the planet up from orbit!

Thats not a lightning strike! Thats an ORBITAL strike! lol
Seriously man, you should learn the difference. No need to go out hoping to get struck by lightning and then get crushed by an artillery shell...
Also, what happens when your "fluffy" SM army happens to also be able to beat most everyone (mine is no where close...)? Does that get a free pass, or is that a WAAC "waa, you just followed the codex release cycle" army? Just wondering...

Grey Knights are not really Space Marines and are unique enough so I have no problems with them getting one esp. since its been so long.

But Necrons better get a codex before ****ing black Templars or Dark Angels. God save us all.

SM players act and pretend like they own the hobby and any Xenos is nothing but sack-boys for the heros of the day stomp and save the day.

Goddard wrote:

I just started playing 40k this year, and I do play Space Marines. I know it's childish to even respond to this, but I'm going to anyway. I'm not accusing, or inciting anything, these are simply my reasons.

1. I picked to play Space Marines because they were recommended to me by experienced players. They told me they had a wide range of tactics available, and were the best all-around army. I don't feel stupid or immature for taking their advice. Why would I choose something more difficult when my understanding of the game was already weak at best? Just to be different? I'd be pissed as hell if I spent $200.00 on an army I decided I hated playing as. With the Space Marines, there is flexibilty. (I'm not saying other factions lack this, but the Space Marines are among the most versatile.)

I started playing 40k this year (at the age of 26), and I started with SM, for many of the reasons you illustrate, Goddard. Especially the one above. I actually d/led the main rulebook & codexes when I was researching the game, and considered for weeks which army to play. I settled on SM because I like power armor, and because they're flexible. If it's a faction I think is cool, and will give me the broadest (though perhaps not the deepest) experience of the game when starting out, well, that seems the best to me. I can play SM & get a taste of shooty and CC and a bit of everything else, and if down the road one of those elements of the game leaps out at me as one I really want to explore more in-depth, I can get another army that specializes in it.

I long ago learned to not pick something "different" just for the sake of it.

And Dorian? Let's talk. Actually, no, you don't have to talk. Just come over here.

See this chart? Could you point to it, please, in the place the Space Marine touched you?

( I'm just playing with ya man, I couldn't resist!)

DorianGray wrote:Grey Knights are not really Space Marines and are unique enough so I have no problems with them getting one esp. since its been so long.

But Necrons better get a codex before ****ing black Templars or Dark Angels. God save us all.

SM players act and pretend like they own the hobby and any Xenos is nothing but sack-boys for the heros of the day stomp and save the day.

Through this post, and the rest of the thread really, I have been tossing up whether you're a troll deliberately throwing out the most incendiary comments you can think of, or simply an over-generalising moron. I am still yet to work out which, but rest assured that I will continue my efforts.

---

Personally, I play Space Marines primarily because I like the fluff (Except for M. Wards fluff). They're an elite force of genetically enhanced super-humans, with an almost crusading knight feel to them, standing against the most horrible foes of humanity and this appeals to me. I like the background for other races, but they simply don't appeal to me on the same level that the Astartes do, perhaps because I come from a 'Sword and Sorcery' background. This, as well as having them recommended to me by a friend as a good race to look at what kind of army I'd like to build coming back in 5th edition, is why I began playing Space Marines and remain doing so nearly a year later, to the point where I'm beginning to build my third fully seperate and painted power-armor army.

The fact that I can build a highly competitive list, while having units I like the look of, and keeping in line with the fluff is simply icing on the cake.

I mean uhhh...I play them because I can switch to whatever codex is best at the time and say it's a successor chapter. Am I doing it right?

Kilkrazy wrote:
The SM players would have to play with themselves.

I see what you did there.

I think GW should give other armys more fluff. It's always really interesting to read fluff but it seems most armys don't have enough.

Noir Eternal wrote:

obsidianaura wrote:Shift marines save to 4+ and watch everyone switch armys .

I'd rather see them toned down fluff wise rather than game wise. Game wise they can be fun to play, fluff wise they are the most boring army IMHO

While I respect your opinion I would have to say that SM no matter what the chapter have pretty decent fluff. And the fact that you can make your own chapter and give them your own fluff just make things better.

I would like however to see an Salamanders codex.

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
I would like however to see an Salamanders codex.

This.
Because fire is awesome.

While I like Salamanders(my favorite chapter) I don't think they need their own 'dex. If you want one, make your own. Ends up being more fun, because you will want to play all of the units.

Despite what people say, and not playing Marines, I do think Marines are indeed a great way for new players to start the game.

I am a dirty Eldar player. I started playing 2 years ago at age 21 because I wanted hi-tech aliens, DE hadn't been updated or gotten new models since the cold war, and I heard nothing but horror stories about their learning curve (though that HAS been changed recently ), and tau seemed too one dimensional.

Another part of the reason I picked Eldar was because I wanted to start with a more unforgiving army. When you get punished for making mistakes, you learn to stop making them. I was afraid if I started with a 3+ save army, I'd develop and reinforce bad habits.

That said, not all players feel the same way I did about getting their face ground into the pavement for their first couple of games! For many people if they get curb stomped in their first game... they may not want to play anymore, for them MEQ is a far superior choice, as the forgiveness of that army may encourage them to not give up!
Further now that I have a solid grasp on how my army plays, I'm starting to crave something different, and am about to start building a Khorne Army over the summer in small doses. there is a lot of difference in the chaos marines from loyalist marines (though I agree its kind of silly for Angels, Wolves, and Templars to have thier own codex- how many loyalist close combat marine dexes do we need ffs).

I do love my Eldar, and they will always be my main army. Building up that army has been a labor of love, and I probably wouldn't still be playing today if it wasn't for how much I enjoy the Space Elf army.

That said, it was expensive to make my Mech Eldar list go. Aspect warriors are expensive, wave serpents are expensive, and my favorite unit- guardian jetbikes, are even MORE expensive on a $ to point ratio, all told I've spent easily around 700 dollars to date, and it took at least 500 dollars for my first crappy 1500 list.

I ran the numbers, and the 1500 Chaos list I'm going to build (jump demon weapon lord, zerks + 2 csm in rhinos, raptors, and 2 predators) will cost me 238 dollars (298 if bought straight from GW)- and I'm certain other MEQ armies are even cheaper. Combine this with the higher forgiveness of the Marine Stat line, there is a lot going for a MEQ army for a beginner.

Less frustrating to learn + easier on your wallet = great starting race

sure, I'll agree that the twilight marines (team Edward AND team Jacob) may be a bit OTT, but ridiculous tourney lists are NOT what most players are thinking of when they pick their first army.

If Space Marine players use the Assault on Black reach starter set it gets even cheaper.

The amount of money you need to spend for a 2000 pt SM army vs. a 2000 point Imperial Guard Army is so huge it borders on the ridiculous. (esp. if you play Vostroyans lol)

Also the low amount of models needed to paint vs. a IG army makes for a huge difference in painting time.

SM are the easiest to play and paint and cheapest in $ making them the most popular choice everywhere. Also their fluff is ridiculous.

I can't wait for Grey Knight players go Hey Space Marines guess what? MY ARMY IS EVEN MORE ELITE THAN YOURS muahaha. Space Marines got owned. nice

Really?
You're surprised it costs a lot more to do an all-metal army than plastic?

DorianGray wrote: Also their fluff is ridiculous.

Very true. I think this is true for 40k in general: it's all about taking the GRIM DARKNESS of a future that's ONLY WAR and believing in it TWO-HUNDRED mother-fething PERCENT. 40k is totally ridiculous, which is why I love it.

I mean, if GW is so in love with space marines, at least they could do a better job hiding it. (130pt gap between them and orks in AOBR, ridiculous amounts of 'dexes, the two most broken armies, a video game, and a movie, which, imho, was probably one of the worst movies ever.)

The price gap is very real. Even using bog standard cadians, no FW conversions, etc. making an IG army is going to cost generally at least 50% as much as a similar cost Space Marine army, often more than twice as much.

Say you have a fairly bog standard IG Infantry platoon, with an autocannon+2 flamer PCS and 2 AC/GL infantry squads. You need a Heavy Weapons platoon box, a command squad box, and two tenman infantry squad boxes. That's $109.5 for 180pts.

If you want a Mechvets unit, you need an infantry squad box, three meltagunners, and a chimera. Lets say we get the meltaguns as bitz instead of buying actual Cadian Meltagunners to save money. That's $67.75 for 155pts.

A Space Marine Tactical Squad with a Missile Launcher and a Meltagun are 175pts for $35. Add in a Rhino and its 210pts for $65

The SM's run about 5pts per $1, 3.23pts per $1 with a Rhino.

The Infantry Platoons runs 1.64pts per $1 and the Mechvets run 2.287pts per $1.

That's a very real and very powerful income gap between those two armies.

EDIT: lets look at my current CSM list and my original mech IG list I built a while back before I began building one around an additional platoon and Hydras (even more expensive)

Mech IG:

CCS, 4x Melta, officer of the Fleet (made with spare bitz instead of official metal model), chimera

Platoons

PCS, 4x Melta, chimera
IS, AC/GL, Chimera
IS, AC/GL, Chimera
IS, AC/GL, Chimera

PCS, 4x Melta, chimera
IS, AC/GL, Chimera
IS, AC/GL, Chimera
IS, AC/GL, Chimera

FA:
Vendetta (made with spare bitz)
Vendetta (made with spare bitz)
Vendetta (made with spare bitz)

HS:
Leman Russ BT
Leman Russ BT
Leman Russ BT

Total: ~$1,000

CSM's
DP+Wings

6 Terminators+buying extra weapon bitz
6 Terminators+buying extra weapon bitz

10CSM's, 2x Flamer, PW Champ, Rhino
10CSM's, 2x Flamer, PW Champ, Rhino
10CSM's, 2x Flamer, PW Champ, Rhino
10CSM's, 2x Melta, PF Champ, Rhino

2x Oblits
2x Oblits
2x Oblits

Total ~$680

The IG list, much of it using extra leftover bitz and not having to go to FW to buy any models for stuff like Hydras or Medusas or Vendetta Conversion Kits, costs about 50% more than the CSM list that had to buy additional bitz.

purplefood wrote:Hang on...
Why have you made another thread saying SM are the best?

bazinga

The main issue that I have with Space Marines is the over-saturation not only of players, but also of codex variants. I play out of Codex: Dark Angels, and honestly there is no excuse for that chapter to have a unique codex. The army could have been just as easy recreated by throwing two more special characters in Codex: Space Marines (Belial and Sammuael). As for Grey Hordes, I'm fortunate enough that there aren't any at my FLGS; all space marines are painted as a primary chapter except for mine, which is a DIY chapter that is mostly terminators (and so essentially has to play using the DA codex.)

The problem is all the unnecessary variant list. I can't remember where I saw it, but someone made a single A4 sheet 'mod' for Vanilla Marines to use to make Space Wolves apart from SCs.

And they are the biggest variation, albeit that was the old Space Wolf list.

All the marine variants do is eat each other's sales (and not in a growth way where a new game would cannibalise the old game for instance).

If the other armies were made as 'main' as Marines and offered as alternatives, the entire game would be much more appealing to a newcomer who could choose a faction to fit his 'style' without feeling sidelined.

It felt less of this 'Marine-this, Marine-that' in 2nd edition, even if they were quite central. When did this start?

ONe thing that i have recently come across in our game store that me and a few friends touched on was not the difference between types of marine armies but in paricular one item that is available to them. Storm Shields, probably one of the more ridiculous things to come across and i can say i have played alot of armies that have particulary every guy with one of these things.

What we discussed (in detail) was the fact that is it fair to have the option for a 3+ 3+ or even a 2+ 3+ save? In my own opinion i feel that the lowest ANY invunerable save should be is 4+ . I know the argument of "How Expensive" these things are is supposed to counter it, but when this expensive item is attatched to nearly every, if not all model in your army then even then chances are your going to win. I think the Storm Shields should be moved to a 4+ and cheapen the points cost on it making it much more fair and balanced item. Cant wait to get the flak on this one

Alphapod wrote:The main issue that I have with Space Marines is the over-saturation not only of players, but also of codex variants. I play out of Codex: Dark Angels, and honestly there is no excuse for that chapter to have a unique codex. The army could have been just as easy recreated by throwing two more special characters in Codex: Space Marines (Belial and Sammuael). As for Grey Hordes, I'm fortunate enough that there aren't any at my FLGS; all space marines are painted as a primary chapter except for mine, which is a DIY chapter that is mostly terminators (and so essentially has to play using the DA codex.)

Your last statement is completely wrong and tells me you're here to whine about the Dark Angels having their own book.

If you want a "mostly Terminator" army, you've got a better option available to you than the Deathwing in the form of the Space Wolves Codex and its "Loganwing".

As for Dark Angels having their own codex...
Yeah. Clearly there's no reason for a Founding Legion that has traditionally had its own book, distinct from the standard C: SM.

And clearly the blandness of it has nothing whatsoever to do with the halfassed job they did on the book.

What puzzles me is, with the half-assedness of the books...what keeps them from catching them all up roughly at once? No one would complain if a new codex a month came out one a new edition went into effect. Xenos wouldn't be far behind anything else, and everyone would be happy. So...what's the hold up? You *can't* tell it's play testing with anything resembling a straight face.

Little as I like Warmachine...I have to say the, "You can't cry 'broken!' 'cause its ALL broken!!" system has its appeal. I think that is where they are going anyway, with all this "every army gets its 'remove from play' power."

There's very little "half-assed" about the majority of the books since Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines.

Those are the two that really got the shaft and have basically been left by the wayside by the playerbase in favor of 'counts as' with the others.

Granted, most of the latest codices are quite good, IMO - but every other person on here disagrees about this or that *particular* codex. Given that no one seems to think they are all on some sort of level field...why bother. Calvatore said as much in an interview a while back. Something to the effect that "balance" is an ideal to work toward, but rarely achieved or lasting.

Just write fun rules. Let the ridiculousness bounce off each other.

That's not what we're talking about though.

Dark Angels and Chaos both suffered more from a 'lack of designer interest' than they did 'lack of balance'.

Is that fact, or theory? Because I'd think GW would be decent at assigning the right folks, and vetting their work by now. But then again...I think alot of things.