The worst thing about 40k is Space Marines.

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**Mit Gas**

svendrex wrote:
MADLarkin wrote:
Mr Nobody wrote:Well, if you look at the halo franchise, you can count the number of spartans on two hands, yet spartans are everywhere. They are in very game, and almost evry book and graphic novel, even though there are many factions. This is because they are the main characters, the same goes for space marines.

There were hundreds of spartans, counting all the different programs. Not 10.

It is possible to count to more than 10 using two hands. If you use each finger as a digit in a binary number, it is possible to count to 1023 using both hands. Mr. Nobody's statement still stands.

Yes it is possible to count to high numbers with your fingers, but when you reach 1023 you'd still only realize that you were just wasting a lot of time.

**loota boy**

I mean, I started out thinking I would play Tau, and got a set of them, and found out I dispised painting them. So I started thinking about 'crons, but thought that I would probably have the same issue. So I thought about CSM, but eventually figured out what I wanted in my army: Bad guys and lots of 'um. So I chose orks over 'nids, because orks are lolz to play and every ork model looks different. And, I mean, I slightly resented space marines because the orks starter army in AOBR was a good 135 points short of the space marines army, and that they got a movie and a video game and a bunch of other junk. But even though I don't like them being the poster boy, there isn't really a reason to spew hate at them. If you want to play them because they are cool, and forgiving, and don't consume so much of you time for painting, then that's fine. I admire you for not quitting on this hobby the moment you saw the ridiculous prices, for not thinking "I wonder how many Xbox games I could buy with that?" and deciding to stick with it, even if you chose to play the generic, poster-boy army.

**Sir Pseudonymous**

Vaktathi wrote:Space Marines are, by themselves, not the problem with 40k. It's the oversaturation of Space Marines. Space Marines get books for every conceivable minor tiny variation in battle doctrine or wargear. "zOMG these Red/Green/Grey/Black Space Marines uses unit X or Special Rule Y or Tactic Z way more than Blue Space Marines, THEY **NEED** THEIR OWN BOOK!" while other armies sit around and see this and think "well, our faction does stuff like that too, but we don't get special distinct books for it". Then of course the other SM armies want those same abilities because they can point to instances where they did it too. Between Blood Angels and C:SM, they share outright 80% of their units, weapons and wargear, and almost all the remainder is variations of common items/units.

The Space Marines are featured in absolutely everything 40k related, they are everywhere.The problem is, not only does this overshadow an strangle off access to other races, it takes away from what should be special about the Space Marines and makes them generic, it makes them average, it makes them common. I never look at Space Marines and think "that's a dangerous elite unit", I think "it's the average that everything else is centered around".

They end up being overhyped and oversaturated, they lose their appeal and become the default, the common standard. They're the thing that everyone has seen a billion times and no longer cares, but gets featured over and over to the point where people just don't want to see it anymore.

While the above attitude isn't necessarily universal, it's also by no means an opinion that's confined to a tiny hidden minority either.

This. The Space Marine fluff is good in theory, even if in practice it ends up more in the realm of "atrocious Mary-Sue garbage" (like Alaric, the idealistic young Grey Knight captain who fights Daemons with the powers of Friendship and Imagination!

), though it could stand to lose the more inane things, like the acid drool and eating their enemies to gain their powers. We don't see any of the fluff's redeeming qualities in the game, though: Space Marines are a rare, elite force in the fluff, in the game they're more common than any of the armies that outnumber them billions to one, and despite being mutant space monks that have trained for decades before being allowed to wear their armor in the first place are only marginally better than the "average human" baseline you get in the Guard (while costing three times as many points per model).

How much of the "they get so much focus because they sell the best" is a self-fulfilling prophecy? They're aggressively pushed, ubiquitous, and make up fully half of all the available armies with their superfluous variant codices. They're Space Marines: giant, sterile mutants with a ridiculous number of redundant organs, wrapped in nearly-invulnerable armor with rocket launching machine guns, how many variant rules do you need? Oh, these Marines are sparklepires, and these Marines are half anthropomorphic puppies to rope in the furry crowd, and these are super special too because they have a different paint scheme! They all share one ultimate origin, they all use the same weapons, they are all functionally identical, and meanwhile, the multi-trillion strong Guard (comprised of Actual Humans, by the way, instead of giant mutant space monks), from every conceivable human culture and then some, get a single codex. Sure, it's a nice codex, but if you want to focus on the Imperium, and have to create a ridiculous number of variant codices, why not make them of the army that has actual justification for being different and potential to actually be different (and is actually human, unlike Space Marines)?

Of course it would be nicer still if they'd do an even balance for all the factions, or focus on bringing in more unique ones (including other Imperial factions, like the Adeptus Mechanicus or a dedicated Inquisition army) and keeping everything up to date...

**GoldenKaos**

I utterly love the Space Marine fluff in itself, the idea of having an army of superheroes in iron man armour with rocket guns is awesome in the truest sense of the word. The problem begins and ends with the game itself. Because Space Marines are the 'heroes' of 40k, having forged the Imperium through the Great Crusade and being the best fighting force the Galaxy has ever seen, they are far too common a sight in clubs and tournaments. In a galaxy where each world can house 10+Billion people, there is one Space Marine for each million of those worlds, 99.999% of Imperial citizens will never, ever see a Space Marine in their lifetime, but they are the most popular army, hands down. I dislike that, but that's how it is.
Likewise, they are far too weak in comparison to the fluff on the battlefront. Fluffwise, a Tac Squad could take on a hundred Guardsmen. Gamewise, the Tac Squad would be a red stain on the game table if confronted with the same odds. Fluffwise, a small killteam of Marines should be able to take on any other decent sized army (except CSM obv). A fantastic example of this would be the Honour Guard, in the Codex it says that each of the Ultramarine Honour guard have killed more enemies than an entire IG regiment. Yet he has only two attacks and one wound. WTF? This Honour Guard, who they say is a death dealing machine of the highest level, can be killed outright if one wound bypasses its 2+ armour save? How does that make sense? Sternguard tend to live up to their reputations a little bit more though, seeing how they can kill anything. Ever.

**Vaktathi**

I utterly love the Space Marine fluff in itself, the idea of having an army of superheroes in iron man armour with rocket guns is awesome in the truest sense of the word. The problem begins and ends with the game itself. Because Space Marines are the 'heroes' of 40k, having forged the Imperium through the Great Crusade and being the best fighting force the Galaxy has ever seen, they are far too common a sight in clubs and tournaments. In a galaxy where each world can house 10+Billion people, there is one Space Marine for each million of those worlds, 99.999% of Imperial citizens will never, ever see a Space Marine in their lifetime, but they are the most popular army, hands down. I dislike that, but that's how it is.
Likewise, they are far too weak in comparison to the fluff on the battlefront. Fluffwise, a Tac Squad could take on a hundred Guardsmen. Gamewise, the Tac Squad would be a red stain on the game table if confronted with the same odds. Fluffwise, a small killteam of Marines should be able to take on any other decent sized army (except CSM obv). A fantastic example of this would be the Honour Guard, in the Codex it says that each of the Ultramarine Honour guard have killed more enemies than an entire IG regiment. Yet he has only two attacks and one wound. WTF? This Honour Guard, who they say is a death dealing machine of the highest level, can be killed outright if one wound bypasses its 2+ armour save? How does that make sense? Sternguard tend to live up to their reputations a little bit more though, seeing how they can kill anything. Ever.

It depends on which fluff you read.

The standard fluff that has been reprinted over and over since 2nd Edition and in most codecies and rulebooks has always been roughly 1 SM for every 10 or so normal human troops, not indicating whether or not force multipliers such as drop pod capability are included in that equation.

The derpy crap like Brothers of the Snake and C.S. Goto and whatnot of course will have whatever number of enemies mowed down by the Imperium's Finest the author deems fit. Abnett's Brothers of the Snake had a single Tac squad mow down *thousands* of Dark Eldar. He's also had Gaunts Ghosts take down a squad of Chaos Space Marines with half a dozen Ghosts and some hut dwelling natives.

But the rulebook fluff and codecies have always had it roughly at 1 for 10 to accomplish any given objective.

And please, lets not delve too deeply into the stuff Mat Ward has written (e.g. Honor Guard), it's also written with the same style, grace, and realism of a 12 year olds internet fanfic.

This. The Space Marine fluff is good in theory, even if in practice it ends up more in the realm of "atrocious Mary-Sue garbage" (like Alaric, the idealistic young Grey Knight captain who fights Daemons with the powers of Friendship and Imagination! ), though it could stand to lose the more inane things, like the acid drool and eating their enemies to gain their powers. We don't see any of the fluff's redeeming qualities in the game, though: Space Marines are a rare, elite force in the fluff, in the game they're more common than any of the armies that outnumber them billions to one, and despite being mutant space monks that have trained for decades before being allowed to wear their armor in the first place are only marginally better than the "average human" baseline you get in the Guard (while costing three times as many points per model).

How much of the "they get so much focus because they sell the best" is a self-fulfilling prophecy? They're aggressively pushed, ubiquitous, and make up fully half of all the available armies with their superfluous variant codices. They're Space Marines: giant, sterile mutants with a ridiculous number of redundant organs, wrapped in nearly-invulnerable armor with rocket launching machine guns, how many variant rules do you need? Oh, these Marines are sparklepires, and these Marines are half anthropomorphic puppies to rope in the furry crowd, and these are super special too because they have a different paint scheme! They all share one ultimate origin, they all use the same weapons, they are all functionally identical, and meanwhile, the multi-trillion strong Guard (comprised of Actual Humans, by the way, instead of giant mutant space monks), from every conceivable human culture and then some, get a single codex. Sure, it's a nice codex, but if you want to focus on the Imperium, and have to create a ridiculous number of variant codices, why not make them of the army that has actual justification for being different and potential to actually be different (and is actually human, unlike Space Marines)?

Of course it would be nicer still if they'd do an even balance for all the factions, or focus on bringing in more unique ones (including other Imperial factions, like the Adeptus Mechanicus or a dedicated Inquisition army) and keeping everything up to date...

Well said

**VoidAngel**

I've been in this hobby since Rogue Trader came out. I have marines in my army older than some of you. I have...probably 3 COMPANIES of Marines, assembled and mostly painted. Unassembled...maybe another company. Seriously.
Not a damn single one of them is painted in ANY Chapter colors or scheme. 1) I always liked my own Chapter names and concepts better. 2) They're mine and I'm painting them - I'll paint them how I darn well please.
So, aside from freedom to engage in the hobby as I choose, why would I do this, and stick with it for so long?
"Hi, these are my Void Angles - they use the Blood Angles rules." I get bored with that 3 months later. "Hi, there are my Void Eagles - they use the Space Marine codex rules." OK, had enough of that after while. "Hi, these are my Death Knights, they use the Black Templars rules - oh, wait, here come Codex: Grey Knights - they use the Grey Knight rules."

And what do you have to say about it? Nothing. They're cohesive, don't look like something else, are WYSIWYG - and follow a published, official rule set. My friends don't care (they like variety too) and I've never been turned away from a tournament when I choose to descend into that particular cesspool.

**DorianGray**

Refers to Eldar and Dark Eldar quoted from Warseer

"They are a challenge to play. They will be underpowered to most people because most people really aren't that good and as such stick to armies that lend more credence to their lack of ability by being hugely forgiving. Dark Eldar and Eldar are not forgiving. If you make a mistake in your army build or on the table, and your opponent is halfway decent, you will get put back hard and it could cost you the game."

This is why beginners play Space Marines. This is why most people stick with Space Marines. This is why Space Marines are the most popular.

**VoidAngel**

DorianGray wrote:Refers to Eldar and Dark Eldar quoted from Warseer

"They are a challenge to play. They will be underpowered to most people because most people really aren't that good and as such stick to armies that lend more credence to their lack of ability by being hugely forgiving. Dark Eldar and Eldar are not forgiving. If you make a mistake in your army build or on the table, and your opponent is halfway decent, you will get put back hard and it could cost you the game."

This is why beginners play Space Marines. This is why most people stick with Space Marines. This is why Space Marines are the most popular.

If you are implying that I am a "beginner" after reading that I've been playing the game for 23+ years...get some reading glasses, clean the contacts, something...

I have MORE Eldar than I have Space Marines (close in foot models, much, much more in vehicles).

My Tyranids are even more numerous.

As I said, (in one of these recent threads) the only armies I don't play are Orks (HATE them - but love to fight them) and Dark Eldar (too, too evil - can't bring myself to play them).

I have more reasonable sized Thousand Sons and Necrons armies.

Tau are a more recent endeavor, and I'm still well over 4000 points with them.

IG - few infantry models, many, many, many tanks.

So...I can play and win with any of the above - from the most technical to the most 'hugely forgiving'.

Your theory is incomplete and prejudiced. People play Marines primarily because they are COOL! Then, because they are common. And THEN, distantly in third place - because they are 'easier'. My usual Space Marine configuration in any Chapter is not 'easy'. I like a challenge, and I don't read internet army lists for ideas or track what's currently winning tournaments. I come up will all my own lists and own ideas. If it turns out to match something others have figured out (I was playing a Godzilla list before they'd been dubbed that, OK?) it's because it's a good or fun idea. My Black Templars ran 3 squads of 10 Assault Marines with Storm Shields and 2 Power fists, back in the day. They were a bitch to win with - but fun as all get out.

People like Marines because power armored humans are iconic. Read Armor by John Steakley. Read Starship Troopers (it has nothing to do with the movie). You'll begin to get why people LOVE Marines. And that's why they play them.

**DorianGray**

Yeah the fact that most people play marines because they are COOL!

should be offset by the fact that they are by far the most COMMON! as in everything and their mom plays/has them. That in itself (at least to me) makes them pretty un-cool if everyone has them.

Show up to a game-store ask someone to play:
"Hey I have space marines, want to play?"
"Yeah man."
"Cool, what army do you have?"
"Space marines."

>_>

The fact they are easy to play and paint is just icing on the cake. SM = Generic poster-boy army for kidz. (That GW always makes sure gets the best codexes)

**VoidAngel**

No one else has my Marines. There's no compulsion to play them the same way, with the same list, etc. They can be plenty individualized despite being common.

Cool is in the eye of the beholder. You don't like them, we get that. Carry on.

**GoldenKaos**

VoidAngel wrote: Your theory is incomplete and prejudiced. People play Marines primarily because they are COOL! Then, because they are common. And THEN, distantly in third place - because they are 'easier'.

You may be confusing the reasons people play Space Marines with the reason why you play Space Marines. I would not put the fact that Space Marines are 'easy' in the distant third place of why people play them. People may even think they're cool subconsciously because they're 'easy' to play with and beat people with. But far too many people play Space Marines. If I hadn't already written detailed fluff and maps for all three of my Chapters and their homeworlds, I might fork the lot off ebay and watch them fight over it until the richer one gives me money. But there we are. My erratic method of collecting means I don't even have a cohesive army yet, and I want to lead my Chapter(s) into a glorious victory for the Emperor at some point dammit!
But I'm also collecting Orks, CSM and Eldar on the side (told you erratic, not to mention the other game systems) and probably concentrating more towards Eldar atm. Unfortunately, their Codex is a bit rubbish by now as the new 5th Ed Codexes take away or emulate the advantages that the Eldar once had as their own.

But yeah, absolutely hate the fact that there are 5 variants of Space Marines. GW website been going on about their Blood Angels and their Turdraven all month, and I'd gotten sick of Blood Angels when their Codex appeared with the Sanguinary Guard. April will be all about Grey Knights (who need an update fair dose) but still... this is one of the reasons why the DE Codex was so long in coming. GW doesn't give the niche armies (or the niche games) enough love, they just pump money at the stuff they know will sell well.

**Sir Pseudonymous**

What DorianGray is saying doesn't need to apply universally, as he's speaking of general trends. I'm inclined to agree with his observations for the most part, though I know for a fact that there are exceptions to that trend.

The premise of Space Marines is cool. In practice though, their ubiquity and the absurd levels to which their fluff is taken turn them into more of a walking joke, to the point where I can't manage to read their codex without gagging on all the ridiculous Mary-Suedom, as though their Codex were just a bad piece of fanfiction.

**Vaktathi**

Yeah, that's the problem. Space Marines are cool in theory, have cool visuals, and some of their fluff is very good. Unfortunately some of their fluff is on par with bad internet fanfic (thank you Mr. Ward and even you too Mr.Kelly...), and their commonality undermines their fluff and cool factor. When the rarest, nigh mythical warriors of the god emperor become the default and average joe army that's always featured all the time, and when you see more SM on SM games than almost anything else, it most definitely takes away something.

**gmaleron**

GoldenKaos wrote:Because Space Marines are the 'heroes' of 40k, having forged the Imperium through the Great Crusade and being the best fighting force the Galaxy has ever seen

LIES! Everyone knows it was the truly more skilled, more driven, better equipped, true saviors of the Imperium of Man, biggest bad asses ever the Imperial Guard that are and remain to be the best fighting force in the GALAXY!

**undivided**

**SumYungGui**

Trolling, Honesty, whose to say in this crazy mixed up world where Space Marine fights Space marine constantly?

**DorianGray**

Obviously there are fluffy Space Marine armies that are unique, different and fun to play like a pure Ravenwing or an 9 Dreadnought Blood Angels army.

Those guys get a pass.

**ChrisWWII**

So what makes WAAC Guard different from WAAC Marines? How is the Marine player automatically more immature? Please explain that.

**GoldenKaos**

gmaleron wrote:
GoldenKaos wrote:Because Space Marines are the 'heroes' of 40k, having forged the Imperium through the Great Crusade and being the best fighting force the Galaxy has ever seen

LIES! Everyone knows it was the truly more skilled, more driven, better equipped, true saviors of the Imperium of Man, biggest bad asses ever the Imperial Guard that are and remain to be the best fighting force in the GALAXY!

True, without the Guard the Imperium would be dead, there aren't enough Space Marines about, but the Guard is a slow, cumbersome and often unwieldy weapon, good for when they've time to prepare, but for lightning strikes into enemy worlds, kicking enough ass to destroy a threat with minimum effort and then leaving to repeat the process again and again? That's what Space Marines do. Apples and oranges, they fulfill different military roles, and without both, mankind would be dead.

**gmaleron**

Just was trying to inject some humor into this thread mates (and some imperial guard propaganda)

, no need to think im trolling And the guard can do lightning strike assaults, its called blow the planet up from orbit!

**Hank_Hondo**

I like the Space Marine models because I can use them to represent any faction of the SM and still have a similar piece on the board. Makes sense why someone would piece together a SM army first. I bought Orks first, and proxy them out as the good Space Wolves almost every game.

**Th3ee Legged Dog**

DorianGray wrote:Obviously there are fluffy Space Marine armies that are unique, different and fun to play like a pure Ravenwing or an 9 Dreadnought Blood Angels army.

Those guys get a pass.

really?!

You sir are a bore.

You are so biased towards your own opinions you cant even see why anyone else would play them.

In all reality you are just as likely to scream when Eldar get a new codex and I put down my SM project and start playing my Eldar again because now everyone is playing Eldar. Screaming "OMG it's the end of the world!"

In reality you have no place to judge and always have the right to turn down a game with an SM player. If your tired of playing SM opponents then quite simply stop playing them. In the end it's your own loss.

Furthermore I dont understand how someone running a less generic list gets a pass...

**Vaktathi**

When did 9 Dreads become a "fluffy" Blood Angels army? Since when has that been a "Blood Angles" archetype?

**SumYungGui**

The inherent difference there is once Eldar (supposedly) get a new codex and you play them you will be actually playing AN ELDAR ARMY. You won't be using a pack of grey-plastic-marines and saying 'this month they're Blood Angels, next month they'll be the right color when Grey Knights come out!'.

**Monster Rain**

SumYungGui wrote:You won't be using a pack of grey-plastic-marines and saying 'this month they're Blood Angels, next month they'll be the right color when Grey Knights come out!'.

So, how does this actually affect you negatively?

**Bookwrack**

ChrisWWII wrote:So what makes WAAC Guard different from WAAC Marines?

Apparently, they leave Dorian vastly less butt-hurt.

**Th3ee Legged Dog**

Monster Rain wrote:
SumYungGui wrote:You won't be using a pack of grey-plastic-marines and saying 'this month they're Blood Angels, next month they'll be the right color when Grey Knights come out!'.

So, how does this actually affect you negatively?

+1

**SumYungGui**

Because after that it will be black marines, and after that it will be purple marines, and after that it will be another flavor of marines. Meanwhile the Eldar your supposedly playing will still have the same codex they have now. That's how it affects xeno players negatively.

**Kilkrazy**

There's also an aesthetic dimension. We know from previous threads and surveys that 96% of players prefer to play painted armies rather than bare plastic.

**Monster Rain**

SumYungGui wrote:Because after that it will be black marines, and after that it will be purple marines, and after that it will be another flavor of marines. Meanwhile the Eldar your supposedly playing will still have the same codex they have now. That's how it affects xeno players negatively.

So, the armies that other people play that you are in no way forced to play against affects you? I really don't understand this.

Also, the Eldar codex really isn't that bad. There are plenty of people on this very forum that do very well with them. Also, as a Necron players I don't have a lot of sympathy for people that are upset about the amount of time between codex updates.