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Only questioning the tact of screaming "shut up" on an internet message board, not anything else

Seriously? I can't use the occasional caps for emphasis? Who knew...?

Yeah, OK (oops, sorry) "SHUT UP" (posted for referential purposes only) probably isn't the greatest argumentative stratagem. But really - complaining about Space Marine-o-centricity in 40K is like saying that Space Invaders was annoyingly focused on the little gun at the bottom of the screen. Yes, there were several different kinds of aliens, and bunkers, and UFOs and they're all integral to the game...but, um, yeah.

Seriously, if you so hate them that you can't stand to see another book come out about them, or another rule written for 'em - this is not the game for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DorianGray wrote:People who play unique Marine Armies like Ravenwing, or Deathwing or fluffy armies get a pass.

WAAC Space Wolves players who spam IMBA long fangs, Thunderwolves, and Blood Angels running Mephiston, lord of cheese don't. Note this also applies to IG running leafblower lists with 10 Chimeras, Vendettas, etc. (aka. a@@holes)

I wish 95% of kids didn't start 40k with Space Marines. They aren't cool , they're over-done, and being drawn to "THIS IS SPARTAAA" wearing power-armor is really immature.

OK, taking this at face value, there are some elements of it that I don't understand.

What is the complaint? Is it that the army configurations mentioned don't fit the (your) perceived character of the army? To that I'd have to say, well...if the rules only allowed such configurations, people would get bored very quickly. Pick a major world power. Now look at its army (just the army, mind you) - is it composed of just a handful of units, with just a couple of weapons, that fights the same in all circumstances? No? Then why would Space Marines only have one standard load-out and tactical doctrine?

Is it that those configurations are hard (for you) to beat? They're legal me bucko...so you have a few choices: a) don't play against them; (people always forget that one) b) change your tactics. Learn, adapt. I love fighting those tuned and perfected lists - they usually can't take much tweaking, so I know almost exactly what I am walking into. Or, c) Tell your mate that you don't enjoy that configuration and he's proven he can trounce you with it, could he please change things up a bit to make it fun for both of you. This is commonly called, "sportsmanship."

Honestly, if a guy shows up with 10 Chimeras...I know what he paid for those and how long it took him to paint and assemble them. He gets to beat on me, because hell - it's fun seeing that many tanks in a regular game. He's going to have a blast, and I'm going to have a heck of a challenge. I don't have to win, I just have to have fun. I don't have to play that army 10 times. Same goes for the guy that shows up with a titan, or a VDR critter he lovingly converted and wrote reasonable rules for. Bring it! It's a game, have FUN!

Lastly, being drawn to Space Marines is immature? OK... There's just no defending that. I guess space elves are so much more urbane?

Space Marines (being a SM player) are only boring if you take the same generic stuff over and over again.

There are two types of SM army, the fluffy fun army that has stuff in it cause the guy (or girl) loves the model and it fits the "background" of the army. It may not win as much as it loses but it will always be a fun challenge to play.

And then there's the ultra tweaked, ultra slimline, every unit has a specific purpose no nonsense army everyone on here seems to lean towards. When that loses, it loses big time, and the guy who created it is mortified and spends hours if not days poring over the tactics he used.

Vanilla SM are fun to use if you don't go mad about making them PERFECT. Not even a SM army can take on all comers.

Indeed, personally, I'm not spamming Long Fangs on my SW army, just a single Squad for some support.

Actually, Corennus - both types of army are fun. The fluff type is fun almost all the time (if you are not of the "it's not fun unless I'm winning" type of player). The 'perfected' army is fun for...a while. It stops being fun when you bring it out to play, and your mates groan. At that point, you should come up with something else. That's what I do, and it's always worked for me.
"Yep, OK, I made a nigh unbeatable Eldar list...and now it's time to switch gears. Yay me. Now where did I put those Black Templars...? I could never get those suckers to work..."

this game surrounds humanity's last stand against the oncoming hordes of doom that could destroy it. Who else would they turn to be super heroes? Who else other than the Space Marines, The imperial guard? Well if they are all dead then what? The Adeptus Artibutes, by the time you get here you are freaking doomed. The Space Marines are humanity's basically the heroes of the Imperium and they are the individuals.

Well, that goes back to the player's attitude and not what army he uses.

I have fun even when losing, for example, my last Necromunda game was doomed for me, so i had fun running with my gang onto an advantage place so I could make one big last stand alla 300, where everybody died but hey, I maimed most of my friend's gang as well.

Corennus wrote:Space Marines (being a SM player) are only boring if you take the same generic stuff over and over again.

There are two types of SM army, the fluffy fun army that has stuff in it cause the guy (or girl) loves the model and it fits the "background" of the army. It may not win as much as it loses but it will always be a fun challenge to play.

And then there's the ultra tweaked, ultra slimline, every unit has a specific purpose no nonsense army everyone on here seems to lean towards. When that loses, it loses big time, and the guy who created it is mortified and spends hours if not days poring over the tactics he used.

Vanilla SM are fun to use if you don't go mad about making them PERFECT. Not even a SM army can take on all comers.

Isn't this basically true for all armies though? Every army book has units that are less than effective, units that are brutally effective and units that are middle ground. Space Marines are no exception, nor are they the only example of this. Look at Orks. You have units like Killa Kans or Lootas that are excellent, you have units like Tankbustas or Mega-Armor Nobz which are much less common and you have units like Flash Gitz that almost never see use.

I agree there's an oversaturation of marines. I agree that GW doesn't need to do a back-and-forth Imperial/Xenos release schedule. None of that really separates them from any other army though.

The problem people have with space marines is there's not enough difference between chapters.

Corennus wrote:The problem people have with space marines is there's not enough difference between chapters.

What?
So you are saying that Space Wolves and Blood Angels have similarities in almost every way

And yet when they do separate chapters (ala the Space Wolves or Blood Angels) suddenly people want to consolidate them again...

streamdragon wrote:And yet when they do separate chapters (ala the Space Wolves or Blood Angels) suddenly people want to consolidate them again...

yep but thats all because people have either been waiting for them, or want to start a new army.

I do like how my sisters boyfriend plays his army. He plays a loyalist world eaters army. (we constantly joke that hes actually chaos in disguise lol) You can keep things unique if you want. It all depends on how you want to play your army. You shouldn't group SM chapters into the same category. people play SM because they like their fluff and their armament. you can't change what they play so just let them play. all it matters is that they have fun.

Corennus wrote:The problem people have with space marines is there's not enough difference between chapters.

What? Maybe if you don't actually play two different Space Marine armies.... Can you play two different chapters in a similar fashion? Yes. But you have to work at it, and ignore the very things that make each chapter different. I can play Blood Angels without jump troops. I [/i]can play Dark Angels without Terminators or Land Speeders. I can[i] play Void Angels (Ultramarines) without Legion of the Damned or Thunderfire cannons. Yes, in those cases where I deliberately strip away what makes one Marine army different from another, yes - you get a bunch of guys in similar tanks in power armor with bolters. Congratulations. You have to work to do that, and you have to ignore the very things that make them different.

It's like saying that basketball players are the same a baseball players because both sets of athletes run, throw a ball, and wear uniforms. Yep. Way too similar.

VoidAngel wrote:

What? Maybe if you don't actually play two different Space Marine armies.... Can you play two different chapters in a similar fashion? Yes. But you have to work at it, and ignore the very things that make each chapter different. I can play Blood Angels without jump troops. I [/i]can play Dark Angels without Terminators or Land Speeders. I can[i] play Void Angels (Ultramarines) without Legion of the Damned or Thunderfire cannons. Yes, in those cases where I deliberately strip away what makes one Marine army different from another, yes - you get a bunch of guys in similar tanks in power armor with bolters. Congratulations. You have to work to do that, and you have to ignore the very things that make them different.

It's like saying that basketball players are the same a baseball players because both sets of athletes run, throw a ball, and wear uniforms. Yep. Way too similar.

It's not hard at all to play many marine armies identically.

Personally, I could play my Chaos Space Marines as Space Wolves, and the *only* model I think I'd have to change would be my Daemon Prince to something like a Wolf Lord. I'd also have more than 100 extra points to play with and get Counterattack/ATSKF/Acute Senses and lose basically only the ability to reroll failed morale tests (which is more than compensated by ATSKNF).

Between Codex: Dark Angels and Codex: Space Marines, if you aren't running a Deathwing army, in most cases it's not only possible to run the same army, but very often probably better to use C:SM instead from a competitive standpoint. There isn't anything Dark Angels have that C:SM doesn't in terms of units (though this has always been true even back in 2E) except the ability to run termi's and troops and run Land Speeders in units with Bikes.

Even between C:BA and C:SM, 80% of their non-SC units are identical, and most of the rest are variations on common units. Before their latest book, in 2E, 3E and 4E, even this gap was significantly smaller.

It's very, very easy to make identical armies with different marine books, or at the very least armies and lists that are close enough that it won't make a difference in 95%+ of games played.


Most of the differences between marine books quite honestly are not all that big. Many of them are smaller than the differences between simple codex changes. You see much more radical changes with codex updates than between armies.

BA's do double-melta Assault Marines in rhino's, that's their most common troop. Guess what? 4E C:SM allowed you to do that. 4E C:SM could in fact field more "assault" marines in that sense than BA's can now, as it could field 6 Tac squads that swapped their bolter for BP/CCW, and then take Assault Marines as Fast Attack *AND* elites.

^Pretty much what he said.^

Seriously go look at the wargear list of two different SM books. Now tell me how much is 100%, absolutely, precisely identical.

The difference between one SM codex and the next is a few rules, a few special characters, a literal handful of weapons and most times a variation of the same vehicles every other one gets. There's not that much justifying separate books.

You're both missing the point. They WOULD be similar - in terms of equipment, stats, etc. It's those 'little' differences that make huge play differences *if you don't work to strip them out*. You're not meant to ignore those little things, you're meant to build the force around them so that they ARE different.

All that said, I, personally, would not mind a giant SM codex with all the main Chapters AND rules for building your own variation (like the previous one - but not sucktacular).

Vaktathi wrote:posting in a thread only to scream "shut up" is about as helpful, and contributes about as much to the discussion, as flapping your arms to pretend you're puff the magic dragon, and probably less mature.

How would you put that into text form, because I want to try this.

In a way i actually have to thank Space Marines and their multitudes of players. Without them i would have never realized that the Imperial Guard had so much more to offer and were so much cooler then the warrior monk Marines. I was able to find that its fun to actually play with tactics and not rely on a far superior unit/units and use little to no skill whatsoever. I thank all those space marine players for taking "the" army and saturating it to a point where even to this day i refuse to field a space marine army for that and the reasons above. Hell its why i decided to go as Chaos (they do not count as space marines) because A) they are everything the Marines are not (Sadly however it means that we get a crap book while they get an amazing book thats updated every year it seems ) and B) their fluff is so much cooler, love the idea of extending my middle digit at all the emperor worshipers (when not playing guard anyways ).

Really however what sets me over the edge is, as i briefly mentioned above) how the marine codex's are constantly updated, i mean the FAQ even updated the Marine Codex's first so they could ALL get the benefits. I know people have mentioned the marketing argument and yeah thats all well and good, however i think as an overall hobby it is very frustrating to see one army get all the benefits and for the most part the others are ignored. Maybe instead of coming out with yet ANOTHER marine codex in the GK couldnt we perhaps focus on a book like the Necrons? Sales and the armies popularity will never improve if it never gets updated. But will never happen because the GK are going to be SO out of this universe good that everyone will forget about it for a few months. Looking forward to another (if not better) version of the OP Blood Angels Codex.

Asherian Command wrote:

Corennus wrote:The problem people have with space marines is there's not enough difference between chapters.

What?
So you are saying that Space Wolves and Blood Angels have similarities in almost every way

My ass they are. SMs don't get half the cool cheap stuff BA and SW get. They get... OOOOHHH! A THUNDERFIRE CANNON! and if they don't prefer that to landraiders who can fly, psyker dreadnoughts, dedicated transport land raiders, baal predators, thunderwolves, cheap missile spam, they still have something even cooler than thunderfires! They have the ability to proxy the rules from some of the infinitely better codex if they want because all power armor looks the same.

I see way more SW and BA lists than actual SM lists, and I wouldn't be surprised to see more DA counts as creeping around soon too. Actually I see more Ork, CSM, IG and DE lists than SM too. Maybe they are the favorite of the company, but definitely not of the players.

BobTheChainsaw wrote:

DorianGray wrote:People who play unique Marine Armies like Ravenwing, or Deathwing or fluffy armies get a pass.

WAAC Space Wolves players who spam IMBA long fangs, Thunderwolves, and Blood Angels running Mephiston, lord of cheese don't. Note this also applies to IG running leafblower lists with 10 Chimeras, Vendettas, etc. (aka. a@@holes)

I wish 95% of kids didn't start 40k with Space Marines. They aren't cool , they're over-done, and being drawn to "THIS IS SPARTAAA" wearing power-armor is really immature.

You piss me off so much, I can't even begin. I bet you're just mad that people who actually make competitive lists destroyed your gakky-ass "fluffy" footdar army. There's nothing wrong with lists that are effective, and there's nothing wrong with marines.

Oh, space wolves and blood angels are not OP btw.

hahaha, I run competitive Mech'dar with duel Jetseer councils. Ask anyone who is the most cheese: Space Wolves and Blood Angels. (and IG sometimes)

You gotta love that kid who played codex space marines then switched to Space Wolves when that codex came out (despite his minis all painted blue) and then decided to switch to blood angels when they came out using his ultramarines terminators as "count-as" sanguinary guard.

The amount of Space Marine players switching to the latest "hot" SM codex is pathetic.

I haven't seen a single person switch. The people who play Space Wolves have spent their time building up a Space Wolves army, complete with awesome miniatures. We have one guy whose started up Blood Angels, and he's started from scratch. I really think that the type of WAAC player you're describing isn't really all that common.

In fact, I propose a poll! How many dakkaites have seen someone switch a vanilla Marines army to Space Wolves/Blood Angels? Not just as a temporary 'counts as' but full out just switched?

DorianGray wrote:The amount of Space Marine players switching to the latest "hot" SM codex is pathetic.

Do you have any actual evidence to support your assertation, or are you basically just nerd raging here?


Edited: for a bit less hostility...

ChrisWWII wrote:In fact, I propose a poll! How many dakkaites have seen someone switch a vanilla Marines army to Space Wolves/Blood Angels? Not just as a temporary 'counts as' but full out just switched?

I haven't seen it personally, but I like to repeat things that I hear on the internet.

Xca|iber wrote:I don't think SM need to be toned down. GW should tone up all the other xeno factions. They need some love.

+1. this about covers it.

'In fact, I propose a poll! How many dakkaites have seen someone switch a vanilla Marines army to Space Wolves/Blood Angels? Not just as a temporary 'counts as' but full out just switched?'

About a dozen players down our way, mainly newish to the game, or old hands that must win and take the cheesiest lists you can imagine.

I did tournaments about the time the new SM codex came out, and had no problem with there being lots (and i mean all but 2 people at a 22 person tournament) os SM players, as EVERYONE apparently plays marines

Then Space Wolves came out, and guess what: all those unpainted AOBR marine armies suddenly became SW armies, with multi-jaws spam and missile spam.

then Blood Angels came out, and the grey hordes became BA with massive death companies and counts-as Mephistons all over the place...

When they release Grey Knights i fully expect the Grey Hordes to actually be the right colour for once, as everyone switches up again ;0)

These are full on switches, with just the new army game after game after game until the next new shiny codex hits the street and they nerdgasm and switch again...


Xenos really, REALLY need some love, and not the tainted love substitute that the NIds got. The DE got a measure of it, and some awesome models, but thats more down to it being a personal project than it being GW policy. They're nasty, but not nasty enough. If the other Xeno factions got the same sculpting and codex love the DE got i'd be a fairly happy grot


*edited for dyslexia/arthritic typing*

That is the worst, in my opinion. I'd seriously question playing anyone who in the YEARS since the C:SM release has not painted any Marines, and has shown time and time again they'll just switch? Yeah, I wouldn't play them. I can't go too hard on the new players, just cause they're starting out, so it's fair enough for them to switch.

Your tournaments allow unpainted stuff? O_o

'Fraid so.

If they didn't we'd have about 4 players there.

I always field a WYSIWYG force, fully painted, and it bugs me to see the unpainted chapters on the board, but not much i can do about it..