Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

yakface wrote:

candy.man wrote:I am of the opinion that Jokaero are out of place in the book. I think if they wanted to add something that would fit in with a radical Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, I can’t help but think that were better options available in 40k fluff for this.

I suspect Matt Ward just wanted to add fierce fire support unit for “lolz” and took a shortcut and Jokaero were the result. At the end of the day, the unit seems to be the unfortunate result of copy+paste rules meeting copy+paste fluff.

Such as? Having any kind of warrior race wouldn't really be appropriate because an Inquisitor walking around with militaristic Alien warriors by his side would but even his Inquisitorial seal to the test. I think its pretty clear by the race they chose that they were looking for a race that would still be highly beneficial for an Inquisitor to use but wouldn't be immediately thought of as a militaristic threat. I think the Jokaero is a perfect fit because it represents the kind of things that Inquisitors can bring to the table...things that most people wouldn't immediately think of as a weapon at first glance, but it turns out to be completely deadly.

You know what would have been better?
The Grey Knights book(and Inquisitors within) remaining puritanical.
Deathwatch book(it's coming, let's face it. The Deathwatch RPG has moved Deathwatch from being an organization that was, at best, an all-volunteer Special Forces arsekicking brigade to a Chapter of its own) having the more 'radical' and 'neutral' Inquisitorial elements present.
Sisters of Battle get their own book, with Ecclesiarchy and no Inquisition(if only to shut up some of the SoB diehards that they've been soooooo mistreated in having the Inquisition in their book).

While there are lots of random alien species names out there in the 40K background there aren't that many that have already been formed in any real kind of way. The Jokaero exist in Rogue Trader, fit the bill for the Xenos Inquisitor henchman, so why not include them?

Jokaero don't really "fit the bill" for any kind of henchman, at least not with the Xenology and Rogue Trader notes on them.

They explicitly avoid contact with humanity and other races(although I do recall something of them having a fondness for the Eldar, but what of the Old Ones' creations--other than the Orks of course -- hasn't had that?) and build themselves escape routes out of what seems like a pile of unrelated trash.

Demiurg would have worked out better there. Or an Eldar Corsair. Or practically anything except a Jokaero

When it comes to including new models in a codex, it is always a collaborative effort between the designers and the writers. There is just as much possibility that they decided to include the Jokaero from a fluff perspective first and then wrote the rules to match what they thought they should do as there is for your theory (that they wanted to create a powerful unit first and then shoe-horned the Jokaero in to fit).

And actually, I can say that from my limited experience dealing with the company they almost always approach it from the former standpoint...they say...we need a Xenos henchman choice, what would be cool? And then they move on from there.

In that case, they need a swift kick to the head. Jokaero do not fit in the Grey Knights book.

Really. They don't. It's like the Orks being led by a Snotling.

I don't get how the Jokaero are 'copy+paste' rules...because they are able to choose from a few different weapon choices each turn similar to what Obilterators do? What about pretty much every other stat or rule they have that makes them totally unlike Obliterators?

Nothing really, but of course Chaos players are going to find something to be upset about.

Kanluwen wrote:
You know what would have been better?
The Grey Knights book(and Inquisitors within) remaining puritanical.
Deathwatch book(it's coming, let's face it. The Deathwatch RPG has moved Deathwatch from being an organization that was, at best, an all-volunteer Special Forces arsekicking brigade to a Chapter of its own) having the more 'radical' and 'neutral' Inquisitorial elements present.
Sisters of Battle get their own book, with Ecclesiarchy and no Inquisition(if only to shut up some of the SoB diehards that they've been soooooo mistreated in having the Inquisition in their book).

Why would that have been better? All the codexes in the last few years have been about providing open army lists that allow players to theme their forces as they see fit. So if someone wants to play a puritanical Grey Knights force, they totally can with the book. Or if they want to play a Grey Knights force that is being commanded by a Xenos Inquisitor (or Hereticus Inquisitor), they can do that too.

What is wrong with having the option to do either? It is a way to kind of have a little bit of the ally rules built into each 'Inquisitorial' codex without going full bore and including units from other codexes...the point apparently being that sometimes Inquisition forces from different specialties end up working together to fight a common enemy.

Jokaero don't really "fit the bill" for any kind of henchman, at least not with the Xenology and Rogue Trader notes on them.

They explicitly avoid contact with humanity and other races(although I do recall something of them having a fondness for the Eldar, but what of the Old Ones' creations--other than the Orks of course -- hasn't had that?) and build themselves escape routes out of what seems like a pile of unrelated trash.

Demiurg would have worked out better there. Or an Eldar Corsair. Or practically anything except a Jokaero

Eldar don't fit the bill because they're an existing army, and they were obviously looking for a fun chance to add a new model for a lesser race to the current game. Demuirg could have worked, you're right, but maybe they're going to be in the next Tau book? And either way, having a combative Alien race as a henchman is an entirely different 'feel' than what the Jokaero provide. Since they don't wage wars on their own and normally avoid human contact, the fact that Xenos Inquisitors are able to coral or coerce them into helping makes them more of a 'tool' for the Inquisitors then an 'ally', which would make it easier for Grey Knights (for example) to accept the Inquisitor having them in their employ.

In other words, the Eldar and presumably the Demuirg are enemies of the Imperium for the most part. Jokaero have not been described as any kind of enemy because they do not wage wars or attack anyone. So again, they make the perfect 'tool' for an Inquisitor who has secret knowledge about how to coral/coerce them into service.

Hello,
Seroiusly no spanking the GK monkey jokes? I am saddend by this.

Regards,
Carl

yakface wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
You know what would have been better?
The Grey Knights book(and Inquisitors within) remaining puritanical.
Deathwatch book(it's coming, let's face it. The Deathwatch RPG has moved Deathwatch from being an organization that was, at best, an all-volunteer Special Forces arsekicking brigade to a Chapter of its own) having the more 'radical' and 'neutral' Inquisitorial elements present.
Sisters of Battle get their own book, with Ecclesiarchy and no Inquisition(if only to shut up some of the SoB diehards that they've been soooooo mistreated in having the Inquisition in their book).

Why would that have been better? All the codexes in the last few years have been about providing open army lists that allow players to theme their forces as they see fit. So if someone wants to play a puritanical Grey Knights force, they totally can with the book. Or if they want to play a Grey Knights force that is being commanded by a Xenos Inquisitor (or Hereticus Inquisitor), they can do that too.

Frankly?
Because it's the Grey Knights book. Not "Grey Knights, Heretics, and Puritans".
You're misunderstanding my point though. I'm not saying "No Inquisitors". I'm saying no Daemonhost-utilizing Inquisitors, no Jokaero-utilizing Inquisitors, nothing of that nature in the Grey Knights book. It should, first and foremost, be the "Puritan" book.

What is wrong with having the option to do either? It is a way to kind of have a little bit of the ally rules built into each 'Inquisitorial' codex without going full bore and including units from other codexes...the point apparently being that sometimes Inquisition forces from different specialties end up working together to fight a common enemy.

Just doesn't feel right. You know it will inevitably be Grey Knights fighting side by side with Daemonhosts. Shouldn't happen.

Jokaero don't really "fit the bill" for any kind of henchman, at least not with the Xenology and Rogue Trader notes on them.

They explicitly avoid contact with humanity and other races(although I do recall something of them having a fondness for the Eldar, but what of the Old Ones' creations--other than the Orks of course -- hasn't had that?) and build themselves escape routes out of what seems like a pile of unrelated trash.

Demiurg would have worked out better there. Or an Eldar Corsair. Or practically anything except a Jokaero

Eldar don't fit the bill because they're an existing army, and they were obviously looking for a fun chance to add a new model for a lesser race to the current game. Demuirg could have worked, you're right, but maybe they're going to be in the next Tau book? And either way, having a combative Alien race as a henchman is an entirely different 'feel' than what the Jokaero provide. Since they don't wage wars on their own and normally avoid human contact, the fact that Xenos Inquisitors are able to corral or coerce them into helping makes them more of a 'tool' for the Inquisitors then an 'ally', which would make it easier for Grey Knights (for example) to accept the Inquisitor having them in their employ.

While Eldar are an existing army, the Corsairs are something which as it stands hasn't really been 'fleshed out'. There was more than enough wiggle room there.

Demiurg, while combative, seem to only have done it when the Imperials were the aggressors. They're also a fully sentient race, gifted traders and craftsmen--entirely appropriate for a mercenary race that an Inquisitor has developed ties to.

Something about the Jokaero inclusion just feels...off. And that's even discounting the "they don't fit in the Grey Knights book" weirdness.

In other words, the Eldar and presumably the Demuirg are enemies of the Imperium for the most part. Jokaero have not been described as any kind of enemy because they do not wage wars or attack anyone. So again, they make the perfect 'tool' for an Inquisitor who has secret knowledge about how to corral/coerce them into service.

Actually, the Jokaero are known to attack human settlements to take parts to build their inventions.

Wow ummm....wow can the eldar have a wraithbone monkey and necrons have a metal monkey?

@Yak Face
Thanks for your reply. Personally I can see your perspective that Jokaero could be somewhat applicable because they don’t fit into the “warrior xenos” category and their pre-existing fluff could somewhat justify them as an applicable choice for a Xenos Inquisitor henchmen. That being said, in the grand scheme of things, an applicable choice doesn’t necessarily make it a good choice.

In terms of taking into account the rules+fluff, the 5th edition Jokaero suffer from a classic mismatched syndrome. Fluff wise, they’re described as an engineer type unit, with the ability to repair and upgrade equipment for the inquisitor. Rule wise he is an offensive ranged unit that can mix and match heavy weapons like an Obliterator (whilst hiding behind 3++ Crusaders lol). If one were to write rules to mirror the fluff, personally I would expect to things like the tech marine repair rule and the ability to moderately buff the ranged capacity of the unit, with the Jokaero being moderately equipped with assault weaponry at best as a counter balance (with the unit essentially functioning as a support/buffing type unit). I reckon if the fluff solely described Jokaero as vicious inquisitorial tools for siege warfare then the current rules might be a perfect fit.

AlexHolker wrote:The Ordo Xenos should never get their own book.

Why, exactly?

I think I should preface by saying I'm a bit of a GW fanboy. I've never had an interest in any other tabletop games outside of GW games. I like the fluff and have been around for long enough to appreciate(and enjoy) some of the sillier aspects of the universe. I typically roll my eyes at the GW bashers who take everything way too seriously, and have rolled with the punches after they sucked the life out of my Chaos army with the last codex.

But this... I don't know. I appreciate the fact they have been including more xenos races in new codexes. The new stuff in the Dark Eldar codex was cool, interesting, and fit in well. But Jokaero in Grey Knights is bizarre. I knew it was coming from the rumors. What really gets me is the rules. So on top of everything else Grey Knights have they basically get Obliterators. As if they needed any more advantages.

I really don't care at all about competitive play. I don't play tournaments, and I probably won't ever play against Grey Knights as I game casually with a group of friends that play with a similar mentality of just having a good time and don't buy the newest, hottest armies. However, I do care about fluff and I do care about some general consistency between books. It things like this that bother me when comparing things with my own army, or any other army for that matter. Like Sicarius having true toughness 6 yet Typhus is T4(5). How does that make any sense? Grey Knights can take god damn space orangutans but Chaos can't have (real)daemons? Are you fething kidding me?

I really would like to rant more about his, but it wouldn't do any good. I will say I was just beginning to buy a new chaos army(again), and now I'm honestly just going to wait however long it takes for Chaos to be rereleased. If 40k keeps going the way it going in terms of how books are written I may just stick with Necromunda. At least GW doesn't care enough to feth that up, or do anything with it at all, so I'm pretty safe in still having a good game there.

yakface wrote:All the codexes in the last few years have been about providing open army lists that allow players to theme their forces as they see fit.

... as long as they bring a special character.

If they as open as you say they were, I wouldn't need Coteaz to play the army today I played yesterday without him.

Soon to come: Codex Monkeys of Chaos!

Seeing the Jokaero makes me want to convert a Jokaero force using Kroot rules, or something...

Still, I'm fine with the inclusion in Codex: GK, but my only problems are that: Little space monkey man gets a Lascannon?!? I could see an S6 AP4 Assault: 3 weapon maybe, but the Lascannon, IMHO is too over-the-top.

Like the Crowe model, daemon sword is, IMHO, kinda dumb... Seems like the Grey Knights should just leave the sword where it was, let some other Chaos Champ find it and get killed... rather than carry it around and kill Chaos with it. 4+ rending is bullgak, and shall remain so.

asimo77 wrote: The only thing about these two models that bugs me is why does it say "REDEMPTION SWORD" on Crowe's armour. Seems like an odd phrase.

Haha, that's what I read at first, I think it's meant to read as Redemptions Word!

About the space monkey, I love nods to Rogue Trader, I may get one for the helk of it!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:The Ordo Xenos should never get their own book.

Why, exactly?

Because we've already got too many Marine codices, and Deathwatch is nowhere near worth adding another.

Right, so, no actual reason, just more Marine hate. Gotcha.

Between Kroothawk and Yakface, I've decided that the Jokaero are OK with me.

The Imperium hates Chaos.
The Inquisition has radical elements who don't mind using Chaos against it.
The Inquisition thus has inquisitors who use Daemonhosts.

The Imperium hates Xenos.
The Inquisition has radical elements who don't mind using Xenos against themselves.
The Inquisition thus has inquisitors who use Xeno, just as the Jokaero.


The price of the mini is excessive, and the rules, i dunno, but fluffwise I think it's OK.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Right, so, no actual reason, just more Marine hate. Gotcha.

They are little more than a Sternguard squad, lead by an Inquisitor or Librarian. There's just not enough new content to justify anything more than a White Dwarf article, or a shared codex with either the Grey Knights or Codex Marines.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Right, so, no actual reason, just more Marine hate. Gotcha.

You say that like marine hate is a bad thing.

It's a national sport around here.

AlexHolker wrote:They are little more than a Sternguard squad, lead by an Inquisitor or Librarian. There's just not enough new content to justify anything more than a White Dwarf article, or a shared codex with either the Grey Knights or Codex Marines.

Really? Then I take it you've never seen this.

the orange monkey is dreadful
and £10.25 for 1 bloke in power armour?, yeah ok whatever

I was so happy to see the Jokero up for preorder, and not delayed for a later wave. I was sad to see that the monkeys required so many bananas for their services, $12 per figure ouch. I think that GW missed the boat on this one. If they made them cheaper and made a variety of sculpts they would have made a killing. At the current price and lack of variety in poses people will think twice about buying a troop of monkeys.

Isn't Jokaero getting models one of the signs of the apocalypse?

Yeah, I think i'll be using my Enginseer model as a proxy.

Monkeys and apes are creepy.

More to the point; have GW missed a trick in not including a Deathwatch squad as a unit in this codex?

If nothing else as a retinue option for the Ordo Xenos Inquisitor.

Jadenim wrote:More to the point; have GW missed a trick in not including a Deathwatch squad as a unit in this codex?

If nothing else as a retinue option for the Ordo Xenos Inquisitor.

This.

It's easy to play arm-chair quarter back, I know. However, if you're going to include an Ordo Xenos guy in the Grey Knights Codex, how could you not include an elite squad similar to sternguard or vanguard or honor guard to represent DeathWatch?

Completely dropped the ball on that one.

RandyMcStab wrote:Isn't Jokaero getting models one of the signs of the apocalypse?

There's been a jokaero model as long as there's been space marine models.

http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Image:Limited_Release_-_Jokaero.jpg

What this guy?

I know I was making a funny

Jadenim wrote:More to the point; have GW missed a trick in not including a Deathwatch squad as a unit in this codex?

If nothing else as a retinue option for the Ordo Xenos Inquisitor.

GK Strike Squad?

i hate to change the subject from the thread fav of space apes but i'm more excited about the tidbit on the "what's new" article about new versions of both the Inquisitors Rex and Lok from previous books. if they follow their normal method of releasing an update pdf, it'll effectively make the characters usable by those without the books without having to resort to piracy.

They missed the biggest opportunity by not including a Deathwatch list in the book.

'Aegis of the Imperium'--all three Inquisitorial Ordos, two of three Chambers Militant(Sisters players would've cried if they were tied with the Inquisition again)--and a 'uge friggin' book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

warboss wrote:i hate to change the subject from the thread fav of space apes but i'm more excited about the tidbit on the "what's new" article about new versions of both the Inquisitors Rex and Lok from previous books. if they follow their normal method of releasing an update pdf, it'll effectively make the characters usable by those without the books without having to resort to piracy.

I find it more obnoxious that the Psycannon Razorback isn't being included in the book.