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Kilkrazy wrote:For example, the current Tyranid Elite models are all metal--Venomthrope, Zoanthrope and Hive Guard. These are weighty chunks, difficult to assemble and somewhat unwieldy on the table being very top heavy (except the Hive Guard).

Ha-ha, I have a very top-heavy Hive Guard model that still falls over, even after I filled the base with air clay and glued a load of slate on the top of the base. :( Bring on the plasticy-resiny stuff, I say (as long as it doesn't come with price rises).

Depending on the quaility of resin casts that GW would produce, I think this could be a step forward, I have always hated metail models due to their tendancy to chip and fall apart without proper care.

There are already a couple of resin products by GW, the urban ruins for one, though I have never seen what they look like in person.

Scottywan82 wrote:Well, your Tyranid idea also posits that the consolidated models are sold in equal increments, which isn't really true...

I am making a general case roughly illustrated with a simple example.

None of us know the GW sales figures but they do.

I imagine they sell more Hive Guard than Zoanthropes, and more Zoanthropes than Venomthropes, reflecting the units' effectiveness in combat.

Knowing this in advance, they could adjust the mix of models as required to rationalise production to be most efficient.

Of course all this assumes that GW have some concept of market awareness and planning. Judging their failure to launch kits for the Mycetic Spore and Tervigon, this may be too much to expect.

(feth it, they've only had 30 years experience at this, after all.)

If metal prices are excessive, it could be worthwhile to waste a certain proportion of your plastic production to get the costs down on the other models in the mixture. In other words, make your Tyranid elite models in the ratio 2:1:1 even if you sell them in the ratio 3:2:1, and throw away the spare Venomthropes.

This would depend on the overall production costs including mould making, materials, splitting, and throwing away costs.

Ian Sturrock wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:For example, the current Tyranid Elite models are all metal--Venomthrope, Zoanthrope and Hive Guard. These are weighty chunks, difficult to assemble and somewhat unwieldy on the table being very top heavy (except the Hive Guard).

Ha-ha, I have a very top-heavy Hive Guard model that still falls over, even after I filled the base with air clay and glued a load of slate on the top of the base. :( Bring on the plasticy-resiny stuff, I say (as long as it doesn't come with price rises).

I put my Hive Guards on 60mm bases to stop toppling, and mine are all plastic converted from Raveners.




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Back on topic, here are some real world weights of models which I worked out by weighing models

Rouge Trader era SMs in metal = 25.666g
Rouge Trader era plastic Beakies = 7.4g each including filled base. Maybe 6g including the base?
Studio McVey limited resin character models = 2.666g each (only three measured) without bases. I have to point out that the margin of error of my electronic scales is 2g.
Antenociti's Workshop's Governance of Technology 28mm SF in metal = 10g (estimate on 8 figures still in blisters with bases)

Heresy figures are a similar size to GoT/Studio McVey/Hasslefree/MERCS/Infinity. I have some of these around but can't lay hands on them ATM.

My educated guess is that 10g is a reasonable working estimate for the amount of metal in a standard 28mm figure.

Polystyrene injection moulding is beyond the capability of a small, garage based company like Heresy or Hasslefree. While you can certainly commission moulds and production from industrial moulding firms, the cost of moulds and set up is excessive unless you plan to produce a large number of figures.

Metal and resin can be done in your kitchen with very basic equipment. If you want to produce complex castings reliably, you'll need spin-casting (for metal) or vacuum chamber equipment (for resin).

Metal, while more expensive, has the advantage that scrap can be recycled and equipment can be cleaned more easily. It's also chemically safer.

Most interesting.

Ties up with the rumour from a while back that GW were investing in resin injectiony stuff (which I think was confirmed here earlier. Not sure. TL/DR)

Also ties in with what a little bird told me, namely that Blisters in general will be disappearing from stores rather soon. Indeed, I'm under the impression that they just won't be replenishing stock as it sells through. Anything in a blister for a new release (new army etc) will be splashed in stores, before going direct only.

I just weighed a bunch of Heresy and Hasslefree models. They work out to 7.7g each on average. (26 models weighed -- it has been a pretty exciting Sunday...)

Assuming 8g per figure, and 10% wastage, you should get over 112,000 figures out of a tonne of alloy.

If the alloy costs $35,000 per tonne, you are looking at 31 cents of metal per figure, which is about 19 pence.

That assumes you buy metal in large quantities, of course, which GW can do. Small companies like Heresy and Hasslefree no doubt pay more for their alloy because they buy it in small amounts.

The disappearing blisters fit with the concept of the shop being a promotion tool primarily rather than a sales location.

You hook the punters in with the shiney, ready painted armies, games being played, and sell them a couple of boxed sets.

If they ask for the more specialist items, you order the stuff on line for delivery next week or direct to the customer's home.

I sometimes wonder why GW doesn't send clip their plastic off the sprues and just have the actual models in the box.


would save on shipping costs and would allow them to reclycle the sprues. possably being cheaper.

If your models are falling over easy, the best way I found to weigh them down is to get those little round ball fishing weights that are split down the middle and you squish them onto your fishing line.. take them and snip them in half and just glue the halves under the base. Works great for top heavy stuff

or all the pewter bits left over from metal models

Clipping parts off the sprues will add to production costs and frankly I would rather do it myself rather than someone else or a machine.
Also means having small parts rattling around loose in the box (presumably in a bag)
Also this would possibly increase the risk of missing parts.
It is a lot easier to check all is correct on a sprue, than check individual parts.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:It is a lot easier to check all is correct on a sprue, than check individual parts.

At least on the busier sprues, it's really, really easy to not spot missing parts.

However, I would think that removing the parts from sprues would only be feasible if it could be automated. Some sort of robotic laser-cutter machine that would tzap the parts off the sprue, drop them into a bag and send them on their way would do the trick... with a weigh-in somewhere down the line to catch bags that are missing parts.



I don't really get the resin hate, to be honest. Saying 'resin is bad' is sort of like saying that apples are red. There are a lot of different types of resin. That types commonly used for miniatures are generally chosen for particular attributes (most commonly detail being the most pressing factor, even where this results in less than brilliant durability) but they're not the only options available.

Ultimately, it's all plastic... and plastic technology is a constantly evolving field.

Passed this rumor along in the FLGS today, and shocked some people . Don't make me eat my words, Dakka! Here's hoping it's legitimate, I find it kind of exciting...

I know from first hand experience with scale aircraft kits it is easier to spot an empty parts position that sort out through a bag and check against the parts location diagram in the instructions!

But maybe where I could see a benefit is the blisters which don't have a lot of parts. If that is what Grey Templar meant then an ability to make a clean dust product would be useful.
Not having had any resin gaming pieces am unsure whether figures come prepared in such a way tbh.

Again, it seems like a relatively large investment in terms of benefits. But who knows. GW (or was it FW) have already set up plant in Singapore iirc so maybe that investment has happened?

when GW used to do all metal models they had them in individual sections in the boxs.

similer to the metal squad boxs like Sternguard, Honor Guard, and large multi-part metal models.


perhaps GW could leave them on the sprue for quality control and then snip the sprue off in sections to save some clippings.

Grey Templar wrote:when GW used to do all metal models they had them in individual sections in the boxs.

similer to the metal squad boxs like Sternguard, Honor Guard, and large multi-part metal models.


perhaps GW could leave them on the sprue for quality control and then snip the sprue off in sections to save some clippings.

Hiring people to snip the sprue off adds a lot to labor cost, especially if they're snipping specific places like you suggest. It wouldn't be worth it.

Grey Templar wrote:I sometimes wonder why GW doesn't send clip their plastic off the sprues and just have the actual models in the box.


would save on shipping costs and would allow them to reclycle the sprues. possably being cheaper.

It is a lot of work to cut the sprues, and the parts could get damaged by rattling around. Also it is more expensive to engrave a part number on the inside of every part than to put a tab on the sprue. (Not that GW bother to ID their parts.)


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Necros wrote:If your models are falling over easy, the best way I found to weigh them down is to get those little round ball fishing weights that are split down the middle and you squish them onto your fishing line.. take them and snip them in half and just glue the halves under the base. Works great for top heavy stuff

I do weight nearly all my bases, but when a model is a front heavy as this...



it needs a larger base.

Kilkrazy wrote:It is a lot of work to cut the sprues, and the parts could get damaged by rattling around. Also it is more expensive to engrave a part number on the inside of every part than to put a tab on the sprue. (Not that GW bother to ID their parts.)

My GW plastic has labels (9A 9A 9B type stuff) on the sprue, what they can't be arsed to do is make the key available to the customer.

You do realise why they are labled? Arm 9A is designed to go with body 3A, for example. If you had the bits loose, it would be a nightmare to assemble.

Howard A Treesong wrote:They'll need better quality control on this new resin stuff thatn the level Forgeworld frequently display. Maybe it'll mean more production in China or something.

People even thinking this will lead to a price decrease are kidding themselves. GW price their plastics like metals on the basis that people will apparently pay the same for both. Why would this be any different? If anything prices may go up in order to cover the costs of this transition.

Howard is on the money.

I still believe that GW is under-valuing the AUD.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Clipping parts off the sprues will add to production costs and frankly I would rather do it myself rather than someone else or a machine.
Also means having small parts rattling around loose in the box (presumably in a bag)
Also this would possibly increase the risk of missing parts.
It is a lot easier to check all is correct on a sprue, than check individual parts.

Chibi, read my mind.

On he timmy 12 year old thing what about the timmy 8 year old thing?
my little brother started when he was 8 and although he is now 9 soon to be 10 in a few weeks i have nasty visions of him working with RESIN .
think about this. my little brother runs into GW with his money clutched in his hand. he grabs the night goblin shaman on giant squig that hes wanted for ages.
he pays for it and gets home ripping the packaging open a grin of excitement on his face.
then he stops.
he frowns.
his grin fades.
and he comes hurtling into my room were i am diligently working on something(or alternatively has our mum phone me if im in Harlequinns GW or the Harris library).
i stop what i am doing and come rushing to his aid and i to stare horrifide by what i see before me.
A RESIN KIT!!!!!!!!!
well of course i help him with it and it does get built. but it is fragile and when he next goes to play it in a game lets say he drops it.
and it breaks.
his precious model shatters.
he runs to it as fat tears roll down his face.
his precious figure which he has put days of work into painting as best he can lovingly picking out the detail and maybe even trying out some free hand on is no more.
if GW goes over to resin then i WILL sacrifice all thoes whom forwarded and suggested it to the CHAOS GODS (unless theirs some Hot girls in which case i WILL drink their blood)
metal IS fine.
it WORKS
WHY CHANGE?

Necros wrote:If your models are falling over easy, the best way I found to weigh them down is to get those little round ball fishing weights that are split down the middle and you squish them onto your fishing line.. take them and snip them in half and just glue the halves under the base. Works great for top heavy stuff

You could buy base weights from impact miniatures, they only come in 25mm and delivery is slow atm due to what sounds like a power stuggle in the company.

If the resin is as good as what's in the Tau XV9 kit, then i'm OK with this. It might be a better idea for replacing bigger bulkier metal kits, 40mm base and up. I could imagine the Incubus set, amongst other things, being a brittle nightmare if it were resin. Better stock up on metal ones!

A lot of wargame models are labelled "Unsuitable for children under 12 years".

Obviously parents can choose to let younger children have them, but there wouldn't be much chance of a come-back if something went wrong.



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Bonegrinder wrote:

Necros wrote:If your models are falling over easy, the best way I found to weigh them down is to get those little round ball fishing weights that are split down the middle and you squish them onto your fishing line.. take them and snip them in half and just glue the halves under the base. Works great for top heavy stuff

You could buy base weights from impact miniatures, they only come in 25mm and delivery is slow atm due to what sounds like a power stuggle in the company.

Lead shot ballast is the best. It's much cheaper than fishing line weights.

http://www.leadshotballast.co.uk/

Grey Templar wrote:I sometimes wonder why GW doesn't send clip their plastic off the sprues and just have the actual models in the box.


would save on shipping costs and would allow them to reclycle the sprues. possably being cheaper.

Check the latest buildings for Fantasy (witch fate tor and dreadstone blight). All the parts come in plastic bags with no sprues. And made in China.

Look to the top right.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1740316a_Blog280311_2_XL.jpg

didn't GW profess that their material costs (i.e. the price of metal and plastic) are very insignificant to their bottom line while bragging about their company's prospects in the investor letter a few years back? of course, when they needed a scape goat for a price increase, they cited rising material costs as the "reason".

Next person to complain that resin is fragile and gets brokkan easy please refer to earlier posts and videos showing it isn't always so.

You will then be summarily executed by being beaten to death with non fragile bendy plastic resins.

thank you.

Despite cheaper labour costs in China at present, don't see how shipping the goods half way around the world is going to have any savings.

The sprue weight is not going to be that significant, especially in buildings kits.
I can see GW not wanting us to have sprue in an attempt to stop people making their own terrain and movement trays, the fiends!

I havent read every single post on here but it seems to me that RESIN is getting platered with a big general brush. GW kits are platic/metal, there are more than one form of plastic and metal... just as there are many forms of resin, it isnt just a single thing.
My Tau suit (XV9 close support hazard thingy) is a very nice material to work with, it feels a slightly different resin material to my other FW models (just for comparisons sake).
I see the health issues and warning etc, but 10 years ago (when i was 9) when i first got into the game, i vividly remember slicing my finger open on a horribly sharp bit of flash from a pewter model... Its a careful balancing act if they switch to resin, but i dont think resin deserves half as much hate as its getting.

My 2p

Dan

XV9 ( I have one) is the kind of model that resin is ok for it... no slim fragile parts just big chunks... the problem starts when minis get slimmer and smaller.
Yes there's several kinds of resins and they have been debated some posts above...

This gradual move to China for production -- does anyone know if GW has a clear ethical policy with regards to overseas production? You know, clear indications that they ensure any overseas factories allow worker organization/negotiation/unionization, pay a living wage, don't force staff to work unpaid overtime, allow days off, don't discriminate against women, etc.? I'm not willing to buy sweatshop-made goods, personally.

I havent got new stuff from GW but my GW washes have made in china in the back...