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Ian Sturrock wrote:This gradual move to China for production -- does anyone know if GW has a clear ethical policy with regards to overseas production? You know, clear indications that they ensure any overseas factories allow worker organization/negotiation/unionization, pay a living wage, don't force staff to work unpaid overtime, allow days off, don't discriminate against women, etc.? I'm not willing to buy sweatshop-made goods, personally.

Those are very good questions. A ton of GW's product is made in China these days including the figure cases, army cases, paints and washes, large scenery kits like the Temple of Skulls, resin barricades and of course most infamously, the Codex books for which the inferior binding issues began as soon as they went with the current binder starting with the Dark Elf book. A lot of GW stock coming in the stores now says GW Shanghai on the shipping containers. Some insight into the working conditions of their production operations in China would be interesting.

Ian Sturrock wrote:This gradual move to China for production -- does anyone know if GW has a clear ethical policy with regards to overseas production? You know, clear indications that they ensure any overseas factories allow worker organization/negotiation/unionization, pay a living wage, don't force staff to work unpaid overtime, allow days off, don't discriminate against women, etc.? I'm not willing to buy sweatshop-made goods, personally.

I don't think it is right either, but odds are a massive amount of stuff you own/buy/use was made in China.

Shanghai, really? That's probably a factory in the Export Processing Zone there... i.e. sweatshop central. :(


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Ouroborus wrote:I don't think it is right either, but odds are a massive amount of stuff you own/buy/use was made in China.

Yeah, I am pretty much determined to no longer contribute economically when that's unethical, though (I've no objection to Chinese-made goods if the factories are not sweatshops). This has meant a significant alteration in my buying habits...

Ian Sturrock wrote:This gradual move to China for production -- does anyone know if GW has a clear ethical policy with regards to overseas production? You know, clear indications that they ensure any overseas factories allow worker organization/negotiation/unionization, pay a living wage, don't force staff to work unpaid overtime, allow days off, don't discriminate against women, etc.? I'm not willing to buy sweatshop-made goods, personally.

GW will close the last Chinese production site this year, because child labor got so damn expensive . All paints will be done in UK again. Doesn't rule out outsourcing though.

Oh, and no, GW has no idea of what ethical policy means

GW CHina,no wonder so much of it is on Ebay,probably stolen by employees.Hence why it is so cheap.

col. krazy kenny wrote:GW CHina,no wonder so much of it is on Ebay,probably stolen by employees.Hence why it is so cheap.

Oh hell no.) They don't steal product, they steal the molds, greens, and everything else.)

The factories in china have no problem at all running off product for GW, then running product for people in China that want to sell it on ebay with only the cost of materials. It's not just an employee grabbing a few models, its the factory owner making thousands of models, and openly selling them to ebay sellers. Look at places like 'Dragon Painting Service'. Go into their feedback and look at what they sell. Thousands of chaos trolls, maiden guard, and other metal models. Painting them disguises the bootleg nature, but if you wanted 200 maiden guard, they'd have no problem running some off and shipping them out.

Specific factory owners and their complicit workers also seem to have no problem making things out of medical or other hazardous waste and selling them for kids. That's the best reason not to buy from China, not because you are worried about their worker's rights. They don't worry about your health, why worry if they get enough vacation days?

And yes, until the majority do something about the criminal minority - all are complicit. If you know about it and do nothing, you are an accessory to the crime.

Edited for clarity and lack of telepathic ability to enforce understanding in minds that just want to see prejudice.

mikhaila wrote:

col. krazy kenny wrote:GW CHina,no wonder so much of it is on Ebay,probably stolen by employees.Hence why it is so cheap.

Oh hell no.) They don't steal product, they steal the molds, greens, and everything else.)

The factories in china have no problem at all running off product for GW, then running product for people in China that want to sell it on ebay with only the cost of materials. It's not just an employee grabbing a few models, its the factory owner making thousands of models, and openly selling them to ebay sellers. Look at places like 'Dragon Painting Service'. Go into their feedback and look at what they sell. Thousands of chaos trolls, maiden guard, and other metal models. Painting them disguises the bootleg nature, but if you wanted 200 maiden guard, they'd have no problem running some off and shipping them out.

And if you venture into china they will strip you butt nakid and sell your clothes on ebay also Even a couple weeks ago some AAA batteries from SOMY was on sale at a store here... IF they even reached Portugal it means they are everywere... Man the world is upside down... but we can only blame greed I guess.

Resin, I have never messed with resin before but I do not understand why they could not move all their models to the current plastic sets they are using now (is it only because of gas prices)? And about the China production...not sure what to think or feel about that.

VoidAngel wrote:They also seem to have no problem making things out of medical or other hazardous waste and selling them for kids. That's the best reason not to buy from China, not because you are worried about their worker's rights. They don't worry about your health, why worry if they get enough vacation days?

What the hellllll! Its not vacations days... its children chained, beaten up, starving to death working everyday etc...
People and their own bellybuttons

VoidAngel wrote:They also seem to have no problem making things out of medical or other hazardous waste and selling them for kids. That's the best reason not to buy from China, not because you are worried about their worker's rights. They don't worry about your health, why worry if they get enough vacation days?

You should worry about both. There is no "they" as in everyone in China. The same specific people who own the factories and who don't care about selling hazardous waste to Americans also don't care about letting people work around it in their factories for 18 hours days and no time off. The workers and the end users are both being victimized by the same exploitative people running the show. As in the US, there are specific people responsible for that kind of behavior. Lumping everyone in China into that imaginary "they" is not only ridiculous, it's not a useful way of solving the problem.

I can see where this thread is going now. Somewhere a MOD is preparing another thread lock to stem the tide of uneducated gross generalizations and angry offensive rants.

Aye and a hitherto interesting discussion about the possibility of a change in materials and production bites the resin dust.

Ian Sturrock wrote:This gradual move to China for production -- does anyone know if GW has a clear ethical policy with regards to overseas production? You know, clear indications that they ensure any overseas factories allow worker organization/negotiation/unionization, pay a living wage, don't force staff to work unpaid overtime, allow days off, don't discriminate against women, etc.? I'm not willing to buy sweatshop-made goods, personally.

Sadly, the factors you describe are the reasons so many manufacturers go overseas, and hence the reason why the prices are so low. To be honest I'm amazed the production in the UK has lasted for so long as it is, seeing as the UK government does absolutely nothing to try and protect it's industries.

Now that everything is centred around providing for the share holders, if that means it needs to lay off a bunch of workers and close the UK factory (perhaps the US one also) and move the company to a sweatshop, even if it just makes them an extra 5% they will do it.

Although, even if it is somewhat inevitable, if it does happen I think a lot less people will be worried if GW falls on its arse or will certainly have a lot less sympathy if it does. I worked in a call centre as a student that decided to up shop and move it's entire operation to India. In the end the company folded when, amongst the myriad of technical problems which meant that people couldn't actually talk on the phone, the local mafia had moved in and were running a brothel from the call centre, and then finally there was an outbreak of cholera in the 'office'.

Just read this thread and had a few comments.

1) Production time for resin will always be longer than for metal. Metal just has to cool off while resin has to cure in a chemical reaction. The question is if the material costs can offset the longer cycle time. (seems doubtful to me) they'll also have to buy more machines to keep the same level of production (unless they have a lot of extra capacity now)

2) There was some discussion about removing the parts from the sprue. Most companies who do injection molding and most injection molded parts are desprued as part of the molding process. (The sprues are cut in the mold itself) I suspect the sprues are left on GW products as a convenient organizational and handling feature.

Post edited. Thread should be safe.

People often do jobs that they know are killing them, their families and maybe their customers because of fear of not being able to eat or feed their families due to lack of alternative means of income. While it does make them complicit in a way, they are not the problem. Those same problems existed and still exist in certain industries in the western world as well. That's why there are regulations that try, not always successfully, to prevent unsafe conditions. Condemning the factory workers in China is like condemning the coal miners who died in the US last year. It's up to the employers to ensure ethical and safe materials and conditions. Where workers have no rights then nothing will improve for them or the customers or the people living near the pollution created by those same unsafe manufacturing processes.

In China, if you stand up and criticise the power elite, this is what happens.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12174873
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12954811

I respectfully disagree. When you stuff a plush bunny meant for someone else's infant with something you wear thick gloves and mask to handle, and wouldn't let your own kid within 10' of...you are making a reprehensible moral choice for which you should be held accountable. I couldn't go home to my kids knowing that I'd put someone else's at risk in order to collect a paycheck.

Kilkrazy wrote:In China, if you stand up and criticise the power elite, this is what happens.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12174873
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12954811

Absolutely, and in some states in the USA now we are marching back to the bad ol' good ol' days:
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/09/wisconsin-gop-bypassing-democrats-on-collective-bargaining/

http://toledoblade.com/State/2011/04/01/Kasich-signs-measure-restricting-labor-rights.html

@Killkrazy - yep, but I'm not suggesting that a worker commit such an elaborate suicide. I *assume* they have the option of quitting and finding a different job if the options are murder-by-proxy or execution/persecution.

VoidAngel wrote:I respectfully disagree. When you stuff a plush bunny meant for someone else's infant with something you wear thick gloves and mask to handle, and wouldn't let your own kid within 10' of...you are making a reprehensible moral choice for which you should be held accountable. I couldn't go home to my kids knowing that I'd put someone else's at risk in order to collect a paycheck.

You might think otherwise if it was the only way you could feed your own children. People do amazing things under that kind of pressure. History, even recent history, is full of such sadness.

@BS (ironic, that) - equating breaking the stranglehold of parasitic and too-powerful unions in America, and Chinese totalitarianism is more than a little dishonest.


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Nope - no chance I'd think differently. I would not kill your kids to feed mine. I'd move. I'd go on welfare. I'd flip burgers - but I WOULD NOT knowingly endanger someone else for my own easy prosperity.

Taking away the right of workers to have a say over the conditions under which they work leads to bad things for everyone but the people making money at the top. That's why we had sweatshops in the US and the UK just a century ago before workers had any rights to decent wages, time off, safe conditions at the factory, etc. We're marching backwards and not just in China.

We also didn't have OSHA, and legions of lawyers ready to help anyone sue any company over any damn thing. Today, we do. Unions today do not serve the noble purpose they once did.

VoidAngel wrote:We also didn't have OSHA, and legions of lawyers ready to help anyone sue any company over any damn thing. Today, we do. Unions today do not serve the noble purpose they once did.

In some cases they do. In other cases they don't. This is a strong misconception, IMO. As someone who is working under a union for the first time, I can say that I don't get anything that would be considered unfair.

Void Angel you are condemning chinese workers and assume they have the option to choose or to move... The workers many times are children, they dont have a saying in anything, or option and they surely do not even have access to gloves and masks to handle plush bunnies... those kids and workers are the first victims of greedy corps and you seem to not understand that...

Your idea of moving away, choosing work etc are the perspective of someone who enjoys freedom of choice... they do not have your luxury... I advice you to dig what happens to many chinese baby girls or other related issues before posting your totally uninformed opinion.

And I will not post anymore concerning this matter since its offtopic.

NAVARRO wrote:Void Angel you are condemning chinese workers and assume they have the option to choose or to move... The workers many times are children, they dont have a saying in anything, or option and they surely do not even have access to gloves and masks to handle plush bunnies... those kids and workers are the first victims of greedy corps and you seem to not understand that...

Your idea of moving away, choosing work etc are the perspective of someone who enjoys freedom of choice... they do not have your luxury... I advice you to dig what happens to many chinese baby girls or other related issues before posting your totally uninformed opinion.

And I will not post anymore concerning this matter since its offtopic.

May I direct your eyes to the following words from my previous post: " I *assume* they have the option of quitting and finding a different job..."

Kids not understanding or having the ability to make a choice - I understand. You seem to think that my primary desire is to blame the rank-and-file worker - it is not. Nor do I hold them harmless, as you and others seem to wish to. My opinion is more informed than you allow, though I claim no expertise (hence my statement of *assumption* above).

It may be off-topic, but so what? We're having a conversation. Conversations sometimes wander temporarily, it's not the end of the world. I read that as an an excuse covering your unwillingness to even hear my thoughts further because you disagree.

To sum up: There are degrees of guilt here, certainly - but lesser guilt does not innocence make.

This thread IS getting off-topic. If you'd like to start a thread about labor conditions, political backlash and profit-mongering, please start a thread in the OT Forum.

We're only here to talk about the possible replacement of metal with resin by GW.

This thread has been reported for getting seriously off topic. Lets steer it back shall we?

EDIT: DOH! Lorek beat me to it. Here, have a weinie dog

I received my Studio McVey models today, including one Dino Girl (resin) and five of the new SF models done in metal.

Weights as follows...

Lt Karla Black = 10g
Medic guy = 14g
Big gun guy = 25g (He is about the size of an SM)
Trooper girl = 9g
Sniper girl = 8g
Average = 9.2g

Based on all the figures so far, the non-GW models are typically 8 to 10g each.

GW's models of course are much larger than standard 28mm, and would contain a lot more metal.

On the issue of detail, these Studio McVey models are astonishingly good. Of course they are expensive figures, costing as much as the cheaper GW character models, so you would expect them to be good.

Personally I don't rate GW's figures as particularly good on detail, considering how large they are compared to standard 28mm.