GW moving from metal to resin (confirmed by Harry)

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**Howard A Treesong**

Warboss Narznok wrote:I would have liked this if it became a reality. Too bad

Resin can produce wonderful quality and I like it for that reason. But my head tells me it doesn't seem like a particularly wise move for mass production and sale through GW highstreet stores.

GW don't even sell Forgeworld through their stores because it's a complex adult product. This would be a huge reversal on that kind of thinking, I know Forgeworld tends to be kept as a niche product and not mainstream for "brand" purposes but the issues with resin are definitely a factor.

Maybe the resin they would use would be some of some significantly different nature to that seen in most resin kits, in fact I think it would have to be for this to work.

**filbert**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Warboss Narznok wrote:I would have liked this if it became a reality. Too bad

Resin can produce wonderful quality and I like it for that reason. But my head tells me it doesn't seem like a particularly wise move for mass production and sale through GW highstreet stores.

GW don't even sell Forgeworld through their stores because it's a complex adult product. This would be a huge reversal on that kind of thinking, I know Forgeworld tends to be kept as a niche product and not mainstream for "brand" purposes but the issues with resin are definitely a factor.

Maybe the resin they would use would be some of some significantly different nature to that seen in most resin kits, in fact I think it would have to be for this to work.

Maybe something akin to this plastic/resin hybrid that Mantic used for their Revenant Cavalry?

**His Master's Voice**

Howard A Treesong wrote:Maybe the resin they would use would be some of some significantly different nature to that seen in most resin kits, in fact I think it would have to be for this to work.

It's almost a given. There are multiple different types of resins, many of them far superior in quality and safety to what the average miniature company (and that includes Forge World) can afford to use.

**H.B.M.C.**

What is that stuff exactly? What makes it so different? Does plastic glue work with it, or does it still require super-glue?

**NAVARRO**

H.B.M.C. wrote:What is that stuff exactly? What makes it so different? Does plastic glue work with it, or does it still require super-glue?

Plastic resin was what alkemy used to be, its bendy on thin parts ( so it wont break as normal FW resins) takes good detail and it needs superglue... If the model design is clever you can pretty much plug and play most parts but if model design is crappy its a nightmare... also not very friendly to clean mould lines since the surface gets a bit crude if your going to clean them in a rush.

**H.B.M.C.**

So not 'Timmy Twelve-Year-Old' proof?

**NAVARRO**

Well the way I see it its a middle ground between plastics and resin but inferior to metal if your going to collect and paint characters... in 20 years or so these plasticresin's will not be as collectable as say oop metals...

I think it all boils down to model design, these could turn out average quality ( like most gw stuff) or assembly nightmares... oh and these things are really not hot temperatures friendly they melt and bend very very easy in hot temperatures.

Timmy will enjoy these nevertheless they are easier to put on the bucket of minis and lighter to carry... and a lot closer to toys than classic wargamming miniatures.

**Samus_aran115**

I don't know why forgeworld just doesn't use metal for certain things. They obviously have the resources and technology to us metal :3 Metal is just...Cooler.

I despise resin, especially when it comes to painting it. Fiddling around with a delicate piece of resin is really just... UGH. I always feel like I'm about to crack it in half.

**oni**

I really hope this is true. I hate metal. Metal models are the devil.

**Strelka**

I haven't seen any of this stuff up close, so I can't attest to any of its properties, but could they be moving to the same stuff that companies use for rapid prototyping (http://www.shapeways.com/materials/black_detail or http://www.shapeways.com/materials/white_detail)? I know that some of the detail I've seen on things is pretty impressive.

I wonder what the production time would be like "carving" from a blank as opposed to casting from a mold.

**Stella Cadente**

makes perfect sense to go from plastic and metal to resin, because now instead of charging £18 for 1 model on foot and knowing idiots will willingly buy it they can charge £40 for 1 model on foot with little increase in production costs and still know there are plenty of /Mod: I don't think it is necessary to broadly slander players. \ out there more than willing to buy those models and not think it overpriced.

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

Thanks Filbert
Wasn't sure whether it was mantic or not with the "plastic/resin"

Stella
One would hope any cost savings would be passed onto the customer like any normal business would do, but then again, this is no normal business we are talking about.

**Stella Cadente**

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:One would hope any cost savings would be passed onto the customer like any normal business would do, but then again, this is no normal business we are talking about.

exactly, just look at tactical squads as a perfect example, £2 to produce, sold for £22, savings passed on to...nobody

**Kroothawk**

Comment by yabbadabba ove at Warseer:

Sai-Lauren wrote:To discontinue individual models - whether because they're moving to a different material and you need to clear stocks out to avoid self-competition, or just because they've gone past their shelf life - is very different from shutting down the entire metals production side of the company for 3 months.

GW have done this a few times before whether by range or the entire product. They are not operating at full capacity currently. They will know what models sell slowly, which sell quick and how much stock is across their sales channels and at HQ. They will have ramped up production on some lines to tide them over, and stopped making others sometime last year (yes some things do sell that slow). In short I think you are selling them short on planning.

What this seems to suggest to me is GW are looking to sell through enough metal stock within 3 months to minimalise on the amount left in the system when they switch to resin. That also suggests that for whatever reason they expect the resin to be in more demand than the metal when its released. Read into that what you will.

The final thing is about resin dust. I can't see GW deliberately cutting off their kiddy market. Which means either they are seriously going to ramp up the plastics, and leave a few kits as resins that can only be sold to a certain age group, or they have a resin/resin process that won't cause this concern.
Or they have decided to love Vets again

**spireland**

Stella Cadente wrote:
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:One would hope any cost savings would be passed onto the customer like any normal business would do, but then again, this is no normal business we are talking about.

exactly, just look at tactical squads as a perfect example, £2 to produce, sold for £22, savings passed on to...nobody

Most business' job is not to save their customers money, its to maximize investment of their owners (shareholders).

**Kilkrazy**

http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=tin&months=60

Cost of tin has quadrupled over the past 6 years.

OTOH it tripled between early 2006 and mid 2008, then fell back a lot.

How many figures can be cast from a tonne of tin alloy?

Resin isn't cheap.

How many figures can be cast from a single mould for resin?

Studio McVey price their limited edition resin models much higher than the same model in metal.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
At a rough guess (20g per figure) you get 50,000 individual metal figures out of a tonne of tin.

That makes the metal cost per figure about 65 cents. A few years ago it would have been maybe 24 cents.

It sounds like a big increase in materials costs, but we are talking about figures that cost $5 or more each.

Obviously this is rough estimates as the metal isn't pure tin, and I've taken a stab at the weight of a figure, blah blah blah, etc.

**Przemas**

Wouldn't be surprised if GW does something exactly like that.

@Kilkrazy: in fact resin is currently much cheaper than tin - even if you add material loss which in case of resin is much higher. But material costs are only a friction of production costs.
For example the cost of casting/labour cost itself is another story - typical resin casting in this case is much more expensive. But note I wrote typical - there are so much different resins and different casting techologies that I could believe that a bigger company (like GW) invests in a setup of more efficient resin casting technology and better resins (which are a kind of plastic anyway). The volume at which they operate would make such option worthwhile

.
Just my 5 cents

.

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

We are fully aware that GW is a business and they wanna make monies for their shareholders.

The point is that all things being equal, passing on some of the cost cuts to the customer is "a good thing."
There are plenty of instances where being able to produce goods at a lower unit cost means that the retail price of the goods have dropped.

It helps when there is a viable and strong competition.
Also helps having a rational customer base.

**Gymnogyps**

Today's Forgeworld newsletter describes a Realm of Battle board section they will be making. It is resin, but new heavy duty resin, suitable for a RoB section. There is a thread already started on that news, but the different resin is relevant to this thread.

So there it is, evidence that the concept is already being executed in GW land, though not quite in standard GW products yet!

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

That seems a hefty chunk of resin.
Aren't those sections 2x2'? or is it an area terrain to sit on a section?

**Kanluwen**

It's a hollow, 2x2 section with the terrain molded on by the description.

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

Is this so there will be finer details on the skulls?

**Kanluwen**

You tell me if there's enough details on the "skulls"

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

Look nothing like skulls.
Those are the worst skulls I have ever seen.
Standards are really slipping!

**DukeRustfield**

Just read the first page, but for the older gamers out there, models all used to be lead. In the 1980s there was a big fuss about the toxicity of lead and legislative action pretty much forced all manufacturers away from it.

In America, if you can make a half-assed Save The Children argument, it will fly. Companies know this and thus won't do anything to bring out the angry mothers of doom.

**Kroothawk**

Harry felt the urge to confirm this rumour in a non-cryptic way. And you should never question the confirmations by the pieman

sigur wrote:If that's true this means a massive change. I'm not convinced until we see any facts so let's see.

It is a HUGE change.
It is not an April fools joke. (I have known about it for a while it is just unfortunate timing for the rumour to break).
It is really happening.

mechanicalhorizon from Privateer Press wrote:If what I've been told is correct they are going to be spin-casting the resin using vulcanized silicone molds, the same molds used for metal casting just with a different cutting technique more suited to the flow of resin. We had in the past retrofitted some old molds for metal casting to test out resin casting and they worked fairly well, 3even better with some extra cutting.

So if GW is sticking with this method, and they probably are since spin casting resin is mostly the same as spin casting metal, it also uses much of the same equipment so there would be no extra set-up cost.

If this is correct than they can still use the existing masters to make new molds.

Even is they were to move towards an RTV-type material you could still use the existing masters to make new molds.

There really is no reason for GW to stop making any product because of a change in materials.

This is what I heard.

yabbadabba wrote:GW have done this a few times before whether by range or the entire product. They are not operating at full capacity currently. They will know what models sell slowly, which sell quick and how much stock is across their sales channels and at HQ. They will have ramped up production on some lines to tide them over, and stopped making others sometime last year (yes some things do sell that slow). In short I think you are selling them short on planning.

What this seems to suggest to me is GW are looking to sell through enough metal stock within 3 months to minimalise on the amount left in the system when they switch to resin. That also suggests that for whatever reason they expect the resin to be in more demand than the metal when its released. Read into that what you will.

The final thing is about resin dust. I can't see GW deliberately cutting off their kiddy market. Which means either they are seriously going to ramp up the plastics, and leave a few kits as resins that can only be sold to a certain age group, or they have a resin/resin process that won't cause this concern.
Or they have decided to love Vets again

All of that sounds right. I have had the same thoughts.

Except the "they have decided to love vets again".

I have been buying metal miniatures from Citadel for 30 years.
To be honest ... I'm gutted.

**Kilkrazy**

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:We are fully aware that GW is a business and they wanna make monies for their shareholders.

The point is that all things being equal, passing on some of the cost cuts to the customer is "a good thing."
There are plenty of instances where being able to produce goods at a lower unit cost means that the retail price of the goods have dropped.

It helps when there is a viable and strong competition.
Also helps having a rational customer base.

Reducing price is only necessary in two circumstances.

1. When competitors undercut you. GW has no competitors. It is the only supplier of WHFB/40K in the world.
2. If your price gets so high that people can't afford it. There is a little bit of evidence that GW have reached that point, but I don't think it is conclusive.

Once you get to 2, you have to fine-tune your prices to maximise profit. This is difficult as there are many factors involved.

**Ian Sturrock**

Sure, but there's a difference between "necessary" and "useful". Most of us are in the hobby for the long haul. If GW even did occasional brief promotional price drops or deals -- buy three sets, get the cheapest one free, say -- we'd feel grateful, we'd like 'em a bit more, we'd buy a stack of stuff then, we'd still buy the occasional impulse purchase at other times of year, and they'd make loads of dosh...

**Kroothawk**

I predict a public statement like this:
"Due to metal prices going through the roof, GW decided to change from metal to the much cheaper resin. To celebrate this, prices go up 10%."

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

Well yes.
That is why I added that it helps to have competition and rational customers.

While they are the only makers of Warhammer, they are not the only games system. While some folks will buy whatever at any cost some bods will say enough already and go play with other toy soldiers or at best buy fewer models.