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I think there was a book called Xenolegy or something like that. Where it showed the dissection of several alien races including a female earth cast tau.

IIRC they didn't actually show the parts of the dissection I think you're looking for... but it's been a while.



You know, we need to engineer some superhumans so that people will stop making weird ways of doing it, like in comics and 40k.


Yes, an army of super men (and women) I can see it now... thousands of them...

Encased in power armor of the finest Krupp steel and titanium, powered with Porche engines, marching beneath my banner, occult symbols shining on thier uniforms in the Berlin morning...errr... wait a sec....

happydude wrote:To heck with the fluff! GW and gamers need to get with the times, if a lady wants to be a space marine and can survive the process then let her grab a bolter and charge off to the front with the rest of em! Bullets are not sexist...

How are they not with the times when they're 20,000 years into the future?

But anyways, as I said before: We have the Sisters of Battle. We have this little niche of "Must have Females in Power Armour!" filled already.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Yes, an army of super men I can see it now... thousands of them...

Encased in power armor of the finest Krupp steel and titanium, powered with Porsche engines, marching beneath my banner, Holy symbols shining on thier uniforms in the Berlin morning...errr... wait a sec....

Fixed.
The moment you refer to this, is the time when females become non-combatants. But thanks for disproving your own point

I don't see why not, as it might be abit of fun, but then there is the Geneseed issue...

Diatribe wrote:

happydude wrote:To heck with the fluff! GW and gamers need to get with the times, if a lady wants to be a space marine and can survive the process then let her grab a bolter and charge off to the front with the rest of em! Bullets are not sexist...

How are they not with the times when they're 20,000 years into the future?

But anyways, as I said before: We have the Sisters of Battle. We have this little niche of "Must have Females in Power Armour!" filled already.

They arte actually 39,000 years in the future, current 40k is mostly set at the start of M41 we are in the start of M2.

@ happydude: 'get with the times' is a very stupid phase to use when talking about science fantasy set in the future. the whole point is that it is not 'with the times'.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:What if the Implants are all linked to male hormones for activation?


IIRC Organ implants work best if the Doner and Recipiant are the same sex. there is less chance of transplant refusal that way.

There's no such thing as a male hormone. Both women and men have the same hormones in their bodies.

Transplant rejection is based on the histoprotein markers on the cell membranes. It's nothing to do with gender.

This. Men and women use the same hormones, just in slightly differing amounts. There are some women who naturally have more testosterone than the average male (for reference, testosterone effects bone structure, sexual drive, blood clotting, and many, many other things, in both males and females).

In fact, most women are more receptive to hormone therapy (IE, more responsive, more sensitive to hormone changes, etc) than most men are. Hormone therapy is a common practice in treating the symptoms of menopausal women for this very reason.

Yes, but if the organs are linked to Testosterone it would make more sense to pick male candidates as they will naturally have a higher level.

you would have to activly search for females that also fit the bill and that would waste time. the Imperium doesn't like wasting time.

and on the worlds where marines recruit, the enviroment will favor males with higher levels of Testosterone so you won't get very many that have low levels. it could favor females with more testosterone as well, but the males have a higher potential.



eventually, the whole thing becomes tradition.

And yet, the men also REQUIRE higher levels of testosterone to have a notable change in effect. Essentially, a lower level of increase in testosterone will have a greater change in women compared to men.

Yes, the whole thing is basically tradition, which is something that is broken with as much regularity as an Ork screams WAAAGH!, so

1hadhq wrote:
Fixed.
The moment you refer to this, is the time when females become non-combatants. But thanks for disproving your own point

Sorry, Junior, not quite.

The reality of the war never really meshed with the Nazi's propaganda. Even men like Himmler were forced to bend a knee to military reality on occasion, with, for example, the formation of the SS Helferinnen Corps, which was made up of women.

WWII actually had more women involved in active combat roles then any preceding or succeeding war, leading to several Heroes of the Soviet Union, at least a few of whom out preformed men with far greater combat experience.


And, again, Testosterone is irrelevant in this case. It does not produce the results shown in Space Marines. Further, the fact the implantation occurs (supposedly) in prepubescents rules out any hormonal factor, as the difference at this point is less then 6%.

BaronIveagh wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Fixed.
The moment you refer to this, is the time when females become non-combatants. But thanks for disproving your own point

Sorry, Junior, not quite.

The reality of the war never really meshed with the Nazi's propaganda. Even men like Himmler were forced to bend a knee to military reality on occasion, with, for example, the formation of the SS Helferinnen Corps, which was made up of women.

Sorry, completly wrong.
But keep your american version if you like....

Just don't call me junior because your "joke" fails. Research is your friend you know.

Well, since this thread is still going...

I know this is heretical thinking, but consider this...

All Space Marines are genetically engineered humans who are, as far as the fluff is concerned, incapable of breeding, in effect, mules. The science of 40k allows the manipulation of genetics at a very high level. Children are the prefered vessels for gene-seed and their own genetic material provides the scaffolding for the hyper-engineered genes of the Astartes. This new code dominates that of the donor and changes the host enough that the marine is barely recognizable after transformation. The new code is so dominant and can change the host so much that he (she?) begins to resemble the Primarch from which the gene-seed comes.

The age of the donor is very important in the fluff. Perhaps it's important to establish the gene-seed before sexual maturity, before physical differences begin to occur.

I honestly don't think it matters whether the host is male or female, because in the end they will all resemble their male Primarch. The sex organs are irrelevant in this context and will atrophy if female or remain the same if male.

Grey Templar wrote:Yes, but if the organs are linked to Testosterone it would make more sense to pick male candidates as they will naturally have a higher level.

you would have to activly search for females that also fit the bill and that would waste time. the Imperium doesn't like wasting time.

and on the worlds where marines recruit, the enviroment will favor males with higher levels of Testosterone so you won't get very many that have low levels. it could favor females with more testosterone as well, but the males have a higher potential.



eventually, the whole thing becomes tradition.

The point of the organs is to generate a higher level of testosterone, etc. blah blah blah.

SMs recruit on all kinds of worlds. SMs have to search for males that fit the bill. It's a bit surprising with their high level of genetic technology and 10,000 years experience that they get it wrong so often, but it is more more Grimdark™ that way.

All we are saying is that the biology of Geneseed isn't in any wise dependent on gender. That's just something GW made up for psychological reasons. There isn't a scientific reason behind it, and there is no point arguing it from a scientific viewpoint.

Very little in 40K makes any sense from a realistic angle. It is a science fantasy background with a high degree of (im)plausible deniability about nearly everything.

Many things make sense from an in-universe perspective. For example, bolters don't make any sense from a military point of view. They're too expensive, their ammunition is too expensive, etc. But in-universe, they make sense-- the Imperium has massive amounts of resources, and it benefits from hvaing portions of those resources dedicated to producing such extravagant weapons because its strike forces (Sisters, Inquisitorial forces, and Marines) make good use of the extra boost in firepower and have the skill to be able to not waste ammunition like a common soldier.

Meanwhile the lasgun is effectively the ultimate basic infantry weapon from a usability and supply standpoint, if you're going to be supplying trillions of soldiers every generation and want them to have effective standard equipment, the lasgun is the gun for the job.

This... really doesn't, even from an in-universe perspective. it's just that it's so deeply entrenched in the minds of its makers and players that it's unlikely to ever change.

The same reason why we will NEVER see female Space Marines is why we'll never see a resurgence of Pre-Heresy Space Marine numbers: Because Games Workshop won't ever do it. They like where things are now and are going to keep it that way. They understand that the vast majority of their gamers are male & like things the way they are currently. As I mentioned before: The very small % of players who'd love to have female Space Marines will simply be re-directed by GW to the Sisters of Battle and be told "There ya'll go! Have fun with them. That's what you're getting."

1hadhq wrote:
Just don't call me junior because your "joke" fails. Research is your friend you know.

So you're saying that the Nazis were right and that the Helferinnen Corps was made of men? If that's the case, I would suggest that it is, in fact, you that needs to do some research.

@Grey: The environmental conditions on a world such as describe would actually reduce testosterone through natural selection, due to the behavioral alterations that occur due to heightened testosterone levels. What would increase are the number of Myofibrils in muscle tissue, and an overall increase in physical and mental toughness. However, these would occur in both genders.



Edit: and for some reason, this comic always comes ot mind when I see this thread.

BaronIveagh wrote:

So you're saying that the Nazis were right and that the Helferinnen Corps was made of men? If that's the case, I would suggest that it is, in fact, you that needs to do some research.

No, I do insist youre still wrong and auxillary support is still auxillary.
Seems to complicated for you to stay at the subject and these futile attempts at chaff ( ie to claim other posters junior or close to nazi )
only show that sometimes research should go further than google...

A few hints:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel#SS_Helferinnen_Corps

SS Helferinnen Corps

The SS-Helferinnenkorps, translated literally as 'Women Helper Corps', comprised women volunteers who joined the SS as auxiliary personnel. Such personnel were not considered actual SS members, since SS membership was closed to women.

The Helferin Corps maintained a simple system of ranks, mainly SS-Helfer, SS-Oberhelfer, and SS-Haupthelfer. Members of the Helferin Corps were assigned to a wide variety of activities such as administrative staff, supply support personnel, and female guards at concentration camps.

http://www.germaniainternational.com/ss28.html

The SS auxiliary was made up of females normally between 17 and 30 years of age. They were employed as telephonists, teleprinter operators, and radio operators. Selected female personnel were promoted to NCO or officer ranks after successfully passing special training courses.
These auxiliaries were a very necessary part of the SS organization in that they were able with their communications skills to function in duties that in essence freed up male personnel that were needed in other responsible positions.

Himmler himself wrote: 4. Administration of the Kriegshelferinnen is the responsibility of the unit employing them, in collaboration with the SS-Wirtschafts-Verwaltungs-Hauptamt, but the Chef der Fernmelderwesens (Chief of the Telecommunications Service) is exclusively responsible for SS-Helferinnen.

Then across this one 'SS Affidavits 95 and 96 prove that the SS woman auxiliaries were neither members of the SS nor sponsors. These girls carried out the same work as the Intelligence and Staff assistants in the Wehrmacht and must not be confused with the female supervisors in the concentration camps for female prisoners. ' from the The Trial of German Major War Criminals ;9th August to 21st August 1946 Two Hundred and Seventh Day: Tuesday, 20th August, 1946 (Part 9 of 9)

And thats the look you'd get:


So, 0 armed troopers, not part of the frontline. Simply put, yes your comms officer at that battlebarge/strike cruiser, which is a human chapter serf, may be argued if its a male or female one.

Again. Proven the lack of historical evidence of female armed troopers in German WW2 forces. The non existance of enhanced troopers in the current timeline should be obvious, but its clear why these fanfic elements are used since their is no GW support for it.

PLus, from a gaming group experience, a lot of females tend to play non-human armies. Never heard a girl IRL complain about the absence of
female plastic figs for her chosen army. But YMMV and parody like your comic isn'T unknown.

And here I thought this was marginally about female Space Marines, instead of Nazis.

@BaronIveagh: I liked that comic, but I found something a little inaccruate about it. The comic seems to make it look like the scream of 8 boy-nerds is more powerful than the scream of 11 girl-nerds.

There is no scream like the scream of a boy-nerd.

so since we like the idea of retconning the marines to include females, how long till the sisters get retconned into having males?

It's more that the nerds who typically hate the very concept of female Space Marines tend to be far louder/more rude than the people who don't care either way or would like that change in fluff.

And you know it's true. I've had someone wish that he was in my room so he could slit my throat because I kept countering his arguments for no female Space Marine before.

Luco wrote:so since we like the idea of retconning the marines to include females, how long till the sisters get retconned into having males?

If I got some female marines, I would be more than willing to have some male sisters of battle.

Technically speaking they'd be Frateris Templar. Which have existed in 40k's past.

fox-light713 wrote:I think there was a book called Xenolegy or something like that. Where it showed the dissection of several alien races including a female earth cast tau.

It was an Ethereal, and it said that they thought it was a female.

Is there really any more to be said here?

We're already seeing more arguing about WWII and Nazi history than anything else...

Melissia wrote:Technically speaking they'd be Frateris Templar. Which have existed in 40k's past.

AAAhhhhh! Ninja'd!



@1hadhq: you leave out portions of that same wikipedia article I notice... Hmmm... I wonder what that would be...

"...and female guards at concentration camps."

Here's a nicer one: "...and Heinrich Himmler had told the SS men to regard the female guards as equals and comrades." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_guards_in_Nazi_concentration_camps

"The accusations against her centred on her ill-treatment and murder of those imprisoned at the camps, including setting dogs on inmates, shootings and sadistic beatings with a whip." on Irm Grese, the Beast of Belsen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irma_Grese (Wow, does THAT sound familiar....)

However, I would suggest that this is highly OT at this point. I would also suggest that '0 armed' is inaccurate. You'll note, at no point, did I say 'frontline combatants', though bluntly toward the end of the war, 'non combatants' frequently became combatants, particularly around Berlin in the end, since the Russians were executing anyone SS anyway, male or female. However, since it was my weird fantasy in the first place, I get to say if there are women in it or not, quite bluntly.



As far as 'Why Female Space Marines'? Because people, when told they 'can't' have or do something ask 'Why?' if 'Why' makes sense, they tend to go along with it. If it doesn't make sense, or seems to be contradictory to the facts as they know them, they challenge it.

femail SM would just be silly

And with that... we're all set!

This topic, so sad...

Please feel free to continue the off topic portions of the thread in...the Off Topic Forum.

As for the main subject...