Female Space Marines, Yes or No?

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**Melissia**

And a full regiment of females in the Marine Corps.

Believe me, a few dozen females lost on just a few planets every few generations won't hurt the Imperium.

**Necanor**

I am not against the idea but: Female SM + current fluff = Abomination.

**Melissia**

Well they already changed the fluff to make Grey Knights worship khorne.

**Morathi's Darkest Sin**

I'd say yes, but agree odds are they wouldn't have armour that looks quite different to the current male one.

The pic of the dark haired marine with her helm off, but otherwise you wouldn't think she is female is sorta where I'd suspect they'd be look wise.

Although saying that, I did like that although in general the armour was very similar in Halo for Spartans. You could still quite clearly see which Spartans where female, but without it needing to be in a over sexualised way.

**TheLinguist**

I really have no idea how a femarine could fit into the fluff, but I DO have a solution for the model itself.

Start selling female heads. That's all you need for a female Space Marine.

**Grey Templar**

Melissia wrote:Well they already changed the fluff to make Grey Knights worship khorne.

Well, it wasn't that extreme.

odd, but it made a little sense when taken in context.

at least it wasn't "BA/Cron Bromance" levels of fluff inconsistancy.

they have just made the GKs a little more radical then they used to be.

**FyoraSilverwolf**

TheLinguist wrote:I really have no idea how a femarine could fit into the fluff, but I DO have a solution for the model itself.

Start selling feminine female heads. That's all you need for a female Space Marine.

Fix'd.

But yeah, that's pretty much what needs to be done. If my CSMs could have had female heads, I wouldn't have needed to give them such big tatas to make them obviously female. The GS work to make tatas is much quicker and easier than the GS work that would have been necessary to properly convert any of the currently available plastic female-ish heads, which is why I went that route. And it's most definitely easier than *gulp* trying to make my own.

**Uhlan**

TheLinguist wrote:I really have no idea how a femarine could fit into the fluff, but I DO have a solution for the model itself.

Start selling female heads. That's all you need for a female Space Marine.

I totally agree with this.

If you absolutely need to have a female no one will stop you. It's your money and your figures.

Still, at this scale, just take a darn male head and 'feminize' it by giving it a stereotypical female hair-do.

I mean really, unless the figure is a naked 'female' soldier or marine donning her armor (I can hear the diorama ideas popping in all your heads now...) you'd never be able to tell.

I've served with females in combat gear and I couldn't tell what sex they were till I talked to them... umm, and even then it was dicey sometimes.

**Kurgash**

They could go the Metroid approach, everyone in the Imperium assumes they are males because let's face it, unless GW does it on purpose *see Sisters of Battle* I'm sure power armor could be large enough to not necessitate breast holders, and lo and behold only to the few who keep the secret know that world's saviors were not men but fighting women.

Recruit from Amazon planets, etc, not really a bad idea, contrary to fluff in the highest degree but otherwise it's fun to stretch your imagination time to time.

**Grey Templar**

I don't doubt there are "Amazon" planets out there, but a Marine chapter, in current fluff, would avoid them for recruiting worlds for obvious reasons.

the IG on the other hand...

**Hawkward**

In principle, I'm alright with it. There are just bigger problems I'm concerned about, like the way GW treats the Necrons.

In the meantime, I'm okay with people sticking Sister of Battle heads on Space Marine bodies if they want. The only thing that would bug me would be if they sculpted green stuff gazongas on the armor or something. I have a thing about the word "breastplate" being taken literally.

Also, it may have been mentioned already, but a female Astartes would not be attractive in the conventional sense (or at all, really). She'd have a barrel chest, massive shoulders, a wide head and impossibly broad bones. Also, if she's a part of a Codex-compliant disciplined Chapter, she'd probably shave your head. Really, a female Astartes would look male, and only demonstrably female in the places you aren't going to see anyway.

**Melkhiordarkblade**

Anyway,and correct me if I'm wrong.

But I think I remember it said in the background that female bodies can't handle the Marine biological additions and is unable to connect fully to power armour,which is why the Sisters of Battle wear a stripped down version.

**Melissia**

Sisters of Battle do not wear a stripped down version of Marine armor.

Sisters of Battle wear specially made suits of power armor designed specifically for them at the behest of the Ecclesiarchy.

Damn marine fanboys, not everything is based off of something the marines did or didn't do.

**happydude**

To heck with the fluff! GW and gamers need to get with the times, if a lady wants to be a space marine and can survive the process then let her grab a bolter and charge off to the front with the rest of em! Bullets are not sexist...

**Witzkatz**

Space Marines are supposed to be genetically enchanced supersoldiers.

Current (aided) Bench Press WR:
Men: 1075 lbs
Women: 531 lbs

Based on this, which sex you think would be better as a basis for genetic modification if the aim is to make as physically capable superhumans as possible?

Only in individual sports that do not require upper body muscles the differences between sexes aren’t too grave: men’s Marathon WR is about 2:03 and women’s WR is about 2:15, for example.

From military point of view there’s also a question of differences in average spatial awareness, teamwork etc. between men and women, which become apparent in team sports. These issues are, perhaps, partly physiological, partly cultural and there are individual differences etc., but they do exist on a general level. As a piece of anecdotal evidence I’d like to point out that Finnish Women’s World Ice Hockey Championships 2009 ice team (country’s best semi-professional adult women players) lost every practice game they played against national boys C-league team (semi-professional 16-year old, i.e. not physically fully mature, boys). The women’s team won silver (after Canada) in those games.

Members of male sex have also been more disposable than females throughout history. This can be verified by looking the military casualty records of any war. I don’t want to go deeper into sociobiological or cultural discussion about gender roles here, though. It might be argued that physical sex differences could be made non-existent in the future via cultural change and development of genetics etc., of course, but , based on things like those mentioned above, I don’t personally feel comfortable with the idea of female space marines.

Quoted because I think this is a very good point fluff-wise that gives a reason why, even if it were possible, males may be the preferred choice for creating Space Marines.

If you want to create the best of the best, it helps to start with something already having the most beneficial characteristics for it. This is not meant as sexism as any way and, as we can see, women can serve well in today's military and the Imperial Guard. But Space Marines? Those guys are training for close combat, and that 500lbs bench-press difference shown up there makes a huge difference when it comes to throwing an Ork off your back. Space Marines carry frickin' crew-served weapons like lascannons around. (Yes, I know Sororita Retributors do so too, but they are augmented by their armor above standard humans strength-wise, IIRC) Their style of fighting requires more physical strength than the shooty styles of IG, Eldar or Tau.

And because of this and the fact that male physique has certain advantages when it comes to close-combat warfare, I see a definite point for using males as the starting point for the creation of Astartes, not women.

**BaronIveagh**

I'm for.

Actually, I might point out a perfectly fluffy way to insert femmarines.

The Cursed founding. Remember, when the Inq tried to make their own fresh batch of Primarchs, among other things?

Created an unknown number of mutant space marine chapters?

What if one of their experiments was to create geneseed that allowed women to be viable, thus expanding the pool of possible candidates?

Gets around the missing legions issue, and does nto require a massive retcon.

**happydude**

BaronIveagh wrote:I'm for.

Actually, I might point out a perfectly fluffy way to insert femmarines.

The Cursed founding. Remember, when the Inq tried to make their own fresh batch of Primarchs, among other things?

Created an unknown number of mutant space marine chapters?

What if one of their experiments was to create geneseed that allowed women to be viable, thus expanding the pool of possible candidates?

Gets around the missing legions issue, and does nto require a massive retcon.

Keep your voice down the fluff inquisitors may find you lol.

**BaronIveagh**

Witzkatz wrote:
Space Marines are supposed to be genetically enchanced supersoldiers.

Current (aided) Bench Press WR:
Men: 1075 lbs
Women: 531 lbs

Based on this, which sex you think would be better as a basis for genetic modification if the aim is to make as physically capable superhumans as possible?

Only in individual sports that do not require upper body muscles the differences between sexes aren’t too grave: men’s Marathon WR is about 2:03 and women’s WR is about 2:15, for example.

From military point of view there’s also a question of differences in average spatial awareness, teamwork etc. between men and women, which become apparent in team sports. These issues are, perhaps, partly physiological, partly cultural and there are individual differences etc., but they do exist on a general level. As a piece of anecdotal evidence I’d like to point out that Finnish Women’s World Ice Hockey Championships 2009 ice team (country’s best semi-professional adult women players) lost every practice game they played against national boys C-league team (semi-professional 16-year old, i.e. not physically fully mature, boys). The women’s team won silver (after Canada) in those games.

Members of male sex have also been more disposable than females throughout history. This can be verified by looking the military casualty records of any war. I don’t want to go deeper into sociobiological or cultural discussion about gender roles here, though. It might be argued that physical sex differences could be made non-existent in the future via cultural change and development of genetics etc., of course, but , based on things like those mentioned above, I don’t personally feel comfortable with the idea of female space marines.

Quoted because I think this is a very good point fluff-wise that gives a reason why, even if it were possible, males may be the preferred choice for creating Space Marines.

If you want to create the best of the best, it helps to start with something already having the most beneficial characteristics for it. This is not meant as sexism as any way and, as we can see, women can serve well in today's military and the Imperial Guard. But Space Marines? Those guys are training for close combat, and that 500lbs bench-press difference shown up there makes a huge difference when it comes to throwing an Ork off your back. Space Marines carry frickin' crew-served weapons like lascannons around. Their style of fighting requires more physical strength than the shooty styles of IG, Eldar or Tau.

And because of this and the fact that male physique has certain advantages when it comes to close-combat warfare, I see a definite point for using males as the starting point for the creation of Astartes, not women.

I've read a lot of reports of various results, and a lot of ass covering, that in a nut shell have shown women to be about average when compared to men in actual combat. (Army Times July 29, 1996) In 2007 the Gurkhas began allowing women in the ranks. I would suggest they know something about close quarters combat.

Bluntly, testosterone has little to do with granting superhuman strength to a subject.

This is a series of mice that have been genetically engineered. The mouse on the left is normal. The mouse in the center has a malformed gene for a receptor for a protein called GDF8, or 'myostatin'. The mouse on the right has a malformed receptor and a malformed gene for production.

In humans the same mutation can double or better muscle mass. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5278028/

Considering the astates are simply implanted with additional organs, without undergoing any sort of genetic re- engineering, this implies that they function on a hormonal level. The business with getting pre-pubescents seems to very from chapter to chapter, as many of them seem to recruit full grown men, such as the Space Wolves and Black Templars.

The problems with this method are that they would induce premature aging in the subjects, male or female, due to replication errors at the genetic level. So, for it to actually work, you would have to engineering them from the ground up. For this, women are actually superior, since there are (slightly) fewer things that can go wrong, since you're basically altering the 'default template' for a given vertebrate.

**Grey Templar**

What if the Implants are all linked to male hormones for activation?

IIRC Organ implants work best if the Doner and Recipiant are the same sex. there is less chance of transplant refusal that way.

**Witzkatz**

In humans the same mutation can double or better muscle mass. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5278028/

Whoa. Thanks for that story. A five-year-old holding 7lbs on an outstretchted arm for prolonged time...that kid sounds like a freakin' Primarch in the making.

Will be interested to see what happens when that guy grows to be 21 and does some actual sport on the side...

But, I guess, yes, depending on the actual technobabbly science behind Astartes creation, there might be enough stuff to make women and men equally strong and badass, I agree on that.

Which, of course, will make them look even more alike, like many people already stated. Those two pictures posted a while ago are definitely not how I would imagine women doped up and mutated like those mice in that right picture column...

**Kilkrazy**

Grey Templar wrote:What if the Implants are all linked to male hormones for activation?

IIRC Organ implants work best if the Doner and Recipiant are the same sex. there is less chance of transplant refusal that way.

There's no such thing as a male hormone. Both women and men have the same hormones in their bodies.

Transplant rejection is based on the histoprotein markers on the cell membranes. It's nothing to do with gender.

**Field Gen**

There is no such thing as a female space marine and there never has been nor will there be. Only a male specimen is capable of Accepting the Gene Seeds of a marine.

The Space Marines were made in the Emperors Image and because he was a man all space marines were made so that it only works with boys.

Sisters of battle are the female space marines. There is an entire army of females right there. So stop Winning. Oh

Also Tau have a female model...and dark eldar and I never seen harloquines yet but I believe they are all female too!

**Bludbaff**

What I want is female Guard. I probably would have started a Guard army (instead of buying into Grey Knights) if I could have made either Mordians or gender-balanced Cadians.

**Mr Nobody**

Field Gen wrote:There is no such thing as a female space marine and there never has been nor will there be. Only a male specimen is capable of Accepting the Gene Seeds of a marine.

The Space Marines were made in the Emperors Image and because he was a man all space marines were made so that it only works with boys.

Sisters of battle are the female space marines. There is an entire army of females right there. So stop Winning. Oh

Also Tau have a female model...and dark eldar and I never seen harloquines yet but I believe they are all female too!

Tau have female models? I've never seen them.

Did you mean whining, or did you really mean winning, it's a large difference.

**Witzkatz**

Commander Shadowsun is apparently "female", when that term applies to Tau sexuality.

**Mr Nobody**

Witzkatz wrote:Commander Shadowsun is apparently "female", when that term applies to Tau sexuality.

I completely forgot about that.

**Cottonjaw**

This thread has more sexism than a baconator has bacon. And that's a lot of bacon.

**Field Gen**

There are female Tau, There are also Female DE I think...I believe some of their models are anyway. Or maybe it was something else I saw.

**BaronIveagh**

Field Gen wrote:There is no such thing as a female space marine and there never has been nor will there be. Only a male specimen is capable of Accepting the Gene Seeds of a marine.

The Space Marines were made in the Emperors Image and because he was a man all space marines were made so that it only works with boys.

Sisters of battle are the female space marines. There is an entire army of females right there. So stop Winning. Oh

Also Tau have a female model...and dark eldar and I never seen harloquines yet but I believe they are all female too!

Um, IIRC Harlequins can be of either sex.

Further, the Emperor only served as a genetic basis fro the primarchs. The primarchs served as a genetic basis for other space marines. On at least one occasion, the geneseed was actually re-engineered by the Inquisition. Just because your grandfather was male, and your father was male doesn't make you male.

And I'll stop winning when you stop loosing.

**Grey Templar**

Mr Nobody wrote:
Field Gen wrote:There is no such thing as a female space marine and there never has been nor will there be. Only a male specimen is capable of Accepting the Gene Seeds of a marine.

The Space Marines were made in the Emperors Image and because he was a man all space marines were made so that it only works with boys.

Sisters of battle are the female space marines. There is an entire army of females right there. So stop Winning. Oh

Also Tau have a female model...and dark eldar and I never seen harloquines yet but I believe they are all female too!

Tau have female models? I've never seen them.

Did you mean whining, or did you really mean winning, it's a large difference.

superficially, there isn't much to tell them apart.

I think it's been suggested that T'au mammary glands are actually near the lower limbs like most quadripedal mammels(cows, deer...). if they even have mammary glands.

we know less about T'au physiology then we do about Eldar(and not much there aside from the junk being similer)

it's speculated that the slit on their forheads actually serves some reproductive purpose.