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now you are just repeating your self again........

And I won't go trough the loop again because you highlights what backs your arguments and forgets what does not like the as far as possible part

Serder wrote:They disembark, can you disembark from a vehicle that moved flat out, no. Surviving passengers, none.

So if a Trukk moves 6" during the movement phase, rams, gets blown up, then Kareen!s 13", the vehicle counts as moving flat out and all of the models inside are destroyed?

What if a trukk moves 18" and suffers a Kerrunch, can the passengers disembark?

The surviving part refers to surviving the str 3 hits, not disembarking. So, once the trukk has gone kaboom, the models not destroyed by the explosion disembark.

It makes sense to think about it as a balance thing; if you move your trukk flatout, you understand the inherent risks but if it is forced upon you, that's not exactly fair.

BTW, I seem to remember a thread earlier about how if a skimmer went flatout and is destroyed in the opponents turn, they can still disembark because the models weren't trying to get out during the same movement phase. I'll try and find it.

-cgmckenzie

biccat wrote:

Serder wrote:They disembark, can you disembark from a vehicle that moved flat out, no. Surviving passengers, none.

So if a Trukk moves 6" during the movement phase, rams, gets blown up, then Kareen!s 13", the vehicle counts as moving flat out and all of the models inside are destroyed?

What if a trukk moves 18" and suffers a Kerrunch, can the passengers disembark?

I would have to say no, they are all dead. I checked the wording of Kerrunch and they say the passenger disembark. And again, can you disembark from a vehicle that moved flat out??. No you cannot.

But the topic is immobilized with Kareen here, not Kaboom ro Kerrunch, back on topic!!!

cgmckenzie wrote:The surviving part refers to surviving the str 3 hits, not disembarking. So, once the trukk has gone kaboom, the models not destroyed by the explosion disembark.

It makes sense to think about it as a balance thing; if you move your trukk flatout, you understand the inherent risks but if it is forced upon you, that's not exactly fair.

BTW, I seem to remember a thread earlier about how if a skimmer went flatout and is destroyed in the opponents turn, they can still disembark because the models weren't trying to get out during the same movement phase. I'll try and find it.

-cgmckenzie

I remember seeing that too. IIRC, it ended up being that they are killed. Also, the example biccat gave was the vehicle karrening during the movement phase it went flat out.

If the trukkk moves 12'' than ont he opponet player's turn, gets a kareen of 18'', I don,t think that is considered moving flat out sicne it is nto the palyers movement phase

1) Jordan i havent ever flamed you. I do note, however, that youve finally stopped claiming that the rule about USRs somehow means *all* special rules, which is something at least. A simple admission you were in error would also help.

2) If you are forced to disembark from a vehicle that went flat out! that turn, you are dead. No ifs and buts.

SO no, the "must" does not override because, and this is where we really ARE repeating ourselves, it does not *specify* that it overrides the may-not-disembark rules.

Total and utter consistency.

biccat wrote:

Serder wrote:They disembark, can you disembark from a vehicle that moved flat out, no. Surviving passengers, none.

So if a Trukk moves 6" during the movement phase, rams, gets blown up, then Kareen!s 13", the vehicle counts as moving flat out and all of the models inside are destroyed?

What if a trukk moves 18" and suffers a Kerrunch, can the passengers disembark?

How i see it is this is a special rule that tells you how things go only when a trukk is wrecked or destoryed. Now i did not think i was going to hear someone say when i roll the 3d6 part of kereen and I roll over 12" my guys die. Because that is what is being said. Back to the real fight. It is still a special rule and they should be the rule that is being using. Since they are Special. Unless you we can take the word SPECIAL out of the BRB and just have RULES. This was it is all liberal and we all can be happy and sing songs together !

** edit, got beated to it, appended to previous post

nosferatu1001 wrote:1) Jordan i havent ever flamed you. I do note, however, that youve finally stopped claiming that the rule about USRs somehow means *all* special rules, which is something at least. A simple admission you were in error would also help.

2) If you are forced to disembark from a vehicle that went flat out! that turn, you are dead. No ifs and buts.

SO no, the "must" does not override because, and this is where we really ARE repeating ourselves, it does not *specify* that it overrides the may-not-disembark rules.

Total and utter consistency.

You have gone Mad !!!! I do not agree with this at all other then the part about you Flaming me. I was kidding. I founf out the issue, You Hate Special Rules !! lol. All special rules now have to be rewritten since they do not state every part you need to see word for word replacement. I disagree with this and I will never come over to the dark side !

jordan23ryan wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:1) Jordan i havent ever flamed you. I do note, however, that youve finally stopped claiming that the rule about USRs somehow means *all* special rules, which is something at least. A simple admission you were in error would also help.

2) If you are forced to disembark from a vehicle that went flat out! that turn, you are dead. No ifs and buts.

SO no, the "must" does not override because, and this is where we really ARE repeating ourselves, it does not *specify* that it overrides the may-not-disembark rules.

Total and utter consistency.

You have gone Mad !!!! I do not agree with this at all other then the part about you Flaming me. I was kidding. I founf out the issue, You Hate Special Rules !! lol. All special rules now have to be rewritten since they do not state every part you need to see word for word replacement. I disagree with this and I will never come over to the dark side !

...

raging much?

can you find an argument that has not been countered to back your "light" side??

you should report all insults against you

jordan23ryan wrote:How i see it is this is a special rule that tells you how things go only when a trukk is wrecked or destoryed. Now i did not think i was going to hear someone say when i roll the 3d6 part of kereen and I roll over 12" my guys die. Because that is what is being said.

Passengers are only prohibited from disembarking if the vehicle "has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase." So only if the vehicle dies during the movement phase or your own shooting or assault phase will it blow up.

I was just presenting a similar issue (conflict between ordinary vehicle rules and Kareen!) to see if it would be any more helpful in understanding how the rules interact. It appears it has not, so back on track.

Jordan - no, what I object to is people blatantly taking phrases out of context, being corrected on this and attempting to still claim it is something other than the plain English meaning.

A special rule needs to actually specify it overrules something in order to actually overrule it. Thats it. Nothing else.

The entire game is written as specific > general, the. entire. game.

Please, find a rules quote to back your position, one that actually supports it and isnt irrelevant, like the USR quote, would be useful.

biccat wrote:

jordan23ryan wrote:How i see it is this is a special rule that tells you how things go only when a trukk is wrecked or destoryed. Now i did not think i was going to hear someone say when i roll the 3d6 part of kereen and I roll over 12" my guys die. Because that is what is being said.

Passengers are only prohibited from disembarking if the vehicle "has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase." So only if the vehicle dies during the movement phase or your own shooting or assault phase will it blow up.

I was just presenting a similar issue (conflict between ordinary vehicle rules and Kareen!) to see if it would be any more helpful in understanding how the rules interact. It appears it has not, so back on track.

I get what you are saying. I am just pointing out how this do not makes any sense. If i were to move 12". In my movement phase. It is ok then to move 18" from kereem if in my asssult phase and get out of the trukk unharmed if everything goes well.I know bring logic in to WH40k is pointless. There needs to be more that proves this on both issue. I would like a FAQ on special rules. If they say I am wrong then, I will Make a Thread saying i am wrong ! Until then special rules can over rule more then one normal rule.

no i was saying that because nosferatu reported my comment earlier

dajobe wrote:no i was saying that because nosferatu reported my comment earlier

My bad, I was reported for using Copy and paste too. But i have a word doc of the rules and i can use them how i see fit. I made this doc from my book i bought. I uesd the online pdf from that website i posted because i was at work. I will use my .doc next time !!!

On the post you are talking about. I would agree with you. I dont think it is blinders, i think they are WAAC players. I am one too but I will just do a role off if we can not agree. Sometimes that is not enough either. Playing orks roll offs are fun since that is how ork are played just about.

thats ok, and i agree, let the immobilized kareen roam free!

In terms of what is the most orky and totally awesome, the kareen! while immobilized wins. Unfortunately, the mixing of 4th ed codex and 5th ed rules and general vagueness makes this a 7 page conversation/argument.

I am hoping they address this in an FAQ or the next version of the codex. It really doesn't matter to me that much either way, so if I have an opponent or TO that says it is one way or the other, I will gladly agree. Friendly games, however, should be full of as many things going fast and exploding as possible

-cgmckenzie

PS- this thread has gotten weird, I'm bailing *kareens away in immobilized trukk*

Jordan - you cannot Kareen! in your assault phase. Either you do it in your movemet phase (by ramming a vehicle, for example) OR you do it on their movement / shooting phase.

Or in their Assault phase. And if there's any special rules that reflect damage back, or allow one to 'counterattack' anything that damages it, it'd be possible for it to Ramshackle in your own assault phase as well, with a Wrekkin' Ball.

How does the wrecking ball on your own trukk damage the trukk?

Being lazy about finding ork dex....

It doesn't, but it attacks in the Assault phase, so if someone had a 'reflect damage' special rule, it might go back and wreck it in your own assault phase.

Scattering shots on a blast weapon, or a :1: on a Bomb Squig roll could do it otherwise.

Ah right, I just cannot think of any effects that ever reflect damage

Anything that allows a sort of 'strike back' against attacks? Doesn't the Tyranid Acid Blood thing do that?

If you cause a wound on them you take an I test or take a wound, no armour saves allowed, from memory. Doesnt hurt vehicles.

Looks like another case of some people confusing Moving and moving.

Not the first time that the physical action of moving a model is confused with the BRB considers Movement of a model.

Ramshackle moves the Trukk. Ramshackle does not Move the Trukk. There is the key difference that is once again lost on some posters here.

nosferatu1001 wrote:How does the wrecking ball on your own trukk damage the trukk?

Being lazy about finding ork dex....

You don't have an Ork Codex?

I have been playing for a year now but just bought kodex: orks a week ago. I have been wondering how I got by for a year without it! Truly, a modern literary masterpiece for our time!

But seriously, Nos. Buy one. It is needed for any 40K library. Simply hilarious and fun!

-cgmckenzie

nosferatu1001 wrote:Jordan - you cannot Kareen! in your assault phase. Either you do it in your movemet phase (by ramming a vehicle, for example) OR you do it on their movement / shooting phase.

In assault phase this can happen. I will copy and paste the rule for you lol. Now the point i was trying to make you would not be able to use Successive Turns but just to show you I am right, it can be done!
Successive turns

If a vehicle that has been assaulted, and has
survived, does not move at all in its successive
Movement phase, enemy models will still be in
base contact with it during its Shooting and
Assault phase. Enemy models that are in base
contact with a vehicle with no WS are not classed
as Locked, and can therefore be shot at during the
Shooting phase (just bear in mind that Blast
markers may scatter!).

Enemies that are still in base contact with a vehicle
in its own Assault phase, may attack it again, in
the same way as they did in their own turn (this
includes all models that would count as engaged
in a normal assault

Now while in my shooting Phase all kinds of cool/bad stuff can happen. Hell anything with a scatter die can make this happen.
Weirdboy can cause kereem in shoot Phase
Tankbusta can Cause Kereem in shoot phase with bomb squids !
Mekboy can cause kereem with a SAG

I do have a codex, I just literally couldnt be bothered to find which case it was in.....had it since launch day.

BR - it is a move acording to the BRB, given it follows all the BRB limitations on moving....

You mean like teleport shunt was a move despite it not being one?

And yet it is moved during an opponents Shooting phase, not the owning players Movement phase.

And yet it is moved based on the scatter dice and 3d6, not the movement rules for a Trukk.

And yet....

And yet....

The list goes on Nos that it is not what the BRB defines as Movement.

Again, the mechanics of what happens in a Kareem result involve physically moving the model, but do not fulfill the rules for Movement and thus are not restricted by an immobilized result. You are confusing the mechanics of a rule with what constitutes Movement in the BRB. To you, if the model moves or is moved, BAM, you start shouting from the rooftops that it is Movement.