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Except it is all about the situation.

When you are immobilised, you CANNOT move. This is the base case.

You get kareen!, which tells you to move if possible. It does not tell you you must move, even if you cannot normally move. It does not tell you to ignore any previous damage results. It even makes it explicit that the move is conditional by telling you to do this "as far as possible", and *reminds* you that the normal movement rules apply

Every single part of kareen tells you that this is a normal move. Can you move when you are immobilised? No. not unless the rule *specifically* tells you you can.

True, but this is not a case of specific vs general, as the rules do not conflict, neither by your nor by my interpretation.

Your interpretation is that a player moving a model is the same as a model moving on it's own. Kareen! clearly tells the player to move the model.

I have shown that the rules actually make a difference between models moving and models being moved by players. Movement rules, including immobilized, are written about a model moving, not a player moving a model.

Dude it doesn't really say or imply anywhere in the rules for Kareen! that it is a normal move. I'm looking at it with my own eyeball.

I mean, come on. You do it in a random direction. With a scatter die. That's got to be one of the least normal moves you can find.

There is nothing in the rule that says it is an optional move. You must move 3D6 when kareen! is rolled. The 'move as far as possible' is telling you move the 3D6 and stop only when you go the entire distance/run into an obstacle specified in the rule/FAQ.

It is an order to move the trukk, not a suggestion or option. Move it.

-cgmckenzie

nosferatu1001 wrote:JIdmah - no, it is the more specific situation, and that is what matters. The subset of trukks suffering kareen while immobilised is less than the set of trukks suffering kareen.

How can you say that ? IT is a Special rule. Both point have been made. This is not the first time you have tried to pick a special rule apart. There is a reason why they are special. Yes they are more specific then normal rules. The BRB says this, which you have already said that it does not. Just because it names a small amount of them, that does not mean that is all of them. As i have said before, a special rule can override 2 or more normal rules if it written that way.


This is right from the book. If you READ the first Part it says THIS IS A SUMMARY........ Do i need to get a Definition of SUMMARY...?

As this is just a summary, if any of the Codexes
include one of these special rules and the rule is
different, the one in the Codex takes precedence
(and this represents how the general special rule
applies to that specific race).


So since this is a SUMMARY that means there are more rules not listed here ?

jordan23ryan wrote:
As this is just a summary, if any of the Codexes
include one of these special rules and the rule is
different, the one in the Codex takes precedence
(and this represents how the general special rule
applies to that specific race).

I put emphasis one one of the parts.
This quote is from page 74, Universal Special Rules.
Is Ramshackle a USR? No.
Is immobilized a USR? No.
Does this quote from the Universal Special Rules section apply to either Ramshackle, Kareem or immobilized rules? No.

what are talking about? A header to the page ? Read it again.
It is stating that there are a large number of special rules that are not specific to just a single army so they listed a SUMMARY of these to be in the BRB. This is not all of them by any chance.

Sighl

way to take something entirely out of context. You do realise that this entire part of the BRB (nice C&P from an illegal PDF, btw) rules is talking about special rules that are *identically* named, one in the codex and one in the BRB?

Is Kareen a USR? No? Then that ENTIRE Page does NOT apply to it. Sorry, no matter how you attempt to twist and obfuscate this, it is irrelevant.

Typing 'sigh' at the beginning of all your posts doesn't help your argument, just makes you sound pompous. If it is so tedious posting in a topic, avoid it.

The ramshackle rule and the kareen! subset are more specific than the universal vehicle damage table results, purely by the fact that it applies only to trukks. Immobilized can and does apply to trukks, but when the special rule for trukks is in conflict with the rule for immobilized, the special rule is going to apply.

-cgmckenzie

Object can not move, now move object as far as possible.

That's all it is, seriously.

cgmckenzie wrote:Typing 'sigh' at the beginning of all your posts doesn't help your argument, just makes you sound pompous. If it is so tedious posting in a topic, avoid it.

The ramshackle rule and the kareen! subset are more specific than the universal vehicle damage table results, purely by the fact that it applies only to trukks. Immobilized can and does apply to trukks, but when the special rule for trukks is in conflict with the rule for immobilized, the special rule is going to apply.

-cgmckenzie

So you would argue that the "Don't Press Dat" rule would also take precedence over a looted wagon being immobilized?

I don't have my codex with me now, so I need to double check the wording of it.

But just as the idea, no. The 'don't press dat' is during the owner's movement phase, is a result of your moving, and the distance isn't specified in the rule as being XD6 inches, so the move is either until it hits an obstacle or you exhaust the limit of regular looted wagon movement.

But again, I need to double check the codex to be sure.

-cgmckenzie

In a nutshell it says that at the start of the Ork Mvement phase the player must] roll a dice and on a roll of '1' the player must move the looted wagon "...directly forward as far as possible...".

time wizard wrote:In a nutshell it says that at the start of the Ork Mvement phase the player must] roll a dice and on a roll of '1' the player must move the looted wagon "...directly forward as far as possible...".

and 3d6 as far as possible on a trukk isss

....
....
....
....
0''

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sighl

way to take something entirely out of context. You do realise that this entire part of the BRB (nice C&P from an illegal PDF, btw) rules is talking about special rules that are *identically* named, one in the codex and one in the BRB?

Is Kareen a USR? No? Then that ENTIRE Page does NOT apply to it. Sorry, no matter how you attempt to twist and obfuscate this, it is irrelevant.

I did not take it from a pdf downloaded , it came from Please do not post urls that link people to bootleg copies of the rules. Thanks, Manchu. Since you cant get to the point I was trying to making using my Illegal PDF. I C&P it because I did not want to do what you do and add my own words into it. I guess you can read this more then one way. Since this is a Summary of some of these, i guess we need not to worry about the ones not listed right ?


So here is a better Copy and Paste Job for you.....

Summary.....
sum·ma·ry
   [suhm-uh-ree] Show IPA noun, plural -ries, adjective
–noun
1.
a comprehensive and usually brief abstract, recapitulation, or compendium of previously stated facts or statements.
–adjective
2.
brief and comprehensive; concise.
3.
direct and prompt; unceremoniously fast: to treat someone with summary dispatch.
4.
(of legal proceedings, jurisdiction, etc.) conducted without, or exempt from, the various steps and delays of a formal trial

UNIVERSAL
SPECIAL RULES


As the number of Warhammer 40,000 armies has increased through the years, it has become apparent that there are a large number of special rules that are not specific to just a single army, and that these universal special rules really belong here in the Warhammer 40,000 rule book.

As this is just a summary, if any of the Codexes
include one of these special rules and the rule is
different, the one in the Codex takes precedence
(and this represents how the general special rule
applies to that specific race).

The Special Rules marked with an asterisk (*) are
automatically lost by an independent character
joining a unit that does not have the same special
rule. These rules are also lost by a unit that is
joined by an independent character that does not
have the same special rule.

So, to pick apart your failed argument a little more, as you still missed the point:

Heading is Universal Special rules.

Is Kareen! a universal special rule? No
Is Immobilised a USR? No

Does this section therefore apply to either of those rules? NO

Your argument has no merit by going along these lines. Seriously. Reread it, and note the context. It says "these special rules" - so you cannot simply apply them to ANY special rule, as they apply ONLY to the USRs listed

CGM- i have proven which is more specific, and shown you exactly what is required for a rule to override another (see ATSKNF and Sweeping Advance for what "specify" means), and Kareen! does not do that. Your argument is still null

Rottooth wrote:Holy smoke, this is still going on?

Solution: Roll on it.

1, 2 or 3 = No move.

4, 5 or 6 = It's a rolling fireball.

QFT, if i was playing with my friends, that would always be a rolling fireball, if it was with someone willing to compromise, we would roll for it, if i was playing with nosferatu or time wizard or anyone else who refuses be flexible or open up the blinders a bit, i'd probably just leave because i dont have fun in that type of game. I am not saying that either my style or "the other side's" style of play is wrong, but it has become obvious neither side is going to give in, and unless someone is friends with whoever writes the official rules and can get them to give their opinion, i think its going to stay that way. So everyone, enjoy the game whether it be strict or flexible, but as i have said before in this thread, we have reached an impass.

dajobe wrote:QFT, if i was playing with my friends, that would always be a rolling fireball, if it was with someone willing to compromise, we would roll for it, if i was playing with nosferatu or time wizard or anyone else who refuses be flexible or open up the blinders a bit, i'd probably just leave because i dont have fun in that type of game. I am not saying that either my style or "the other side's" style of play is wrong, but it has become obvious neither side is going to give in, and unless someone is friends with whoever writes the official rules and can get them to give their opinion, i think its going to stay that way. So everyone, enjoy the game whether it be strict or flexible, but as i have said before in this thread, we have reached an impass.

Maybe you shouldn't read YMDC then? Or at least the tenets of it. The whole point of this forum is to get strict and inflexible with the rules, the vast majority of us won't open a rules debate of this magnitude during a game. Usually I believe my opponent's interpretation to be right on his army, and check or argue here later. If he is trying to pull really funky things, dice off.

unless someone is friends with whoever writes the official rules and can get them to give their opinion, i think its going to stay that way.

It even stays this way if whoever wrote the official rules did give his opinion, the KFF debate is perfect proof of that

no, i enjoy ymdc, but if 6 pages of the same post basically being copy pasted over and over, its not really so much an arguement but more a two people with a sound proof wall between them and just keep talking and neither side is listening

My "feelings" on this rule are that I think the Trukk should move. I think it's Orky, and it sounds at first glace as is if that is the way the rule is meant to be interpreted.

However, the Ork FAQ on this changes my mind.

"Don't Press Dat" specifically mentions that the Looted Wagon still "counts" as moving even if it can't, as in if it's immobilized. "Don't Press Dat" works remarkably similar to "Kareen", and seems subject to the normal rules for vehicle movement, including immobilized results.

When a "Kareen" event happens, I believe the 3D6 movement happens just as normal vehicle movement would, with the only restrictions that the "Kareen" special rule places on it, such that it stops 1" away from terrain or enemy models. This means that if the Trukk is immobilized, it may not Kareen. I really wish it could though.

dajobe wrote:QFT, if i was playing with my friends, that would always be a rolling fireball, if it was with someone willing to compromise, we would roll for it, if i was playing with nosferatu or time wizard or anyone else who refuses be flexible or open up the blinders a bit, i'd probably just leave because i dont have fun in that type of game.

Wow. I never thought of myself as being inflexible or having blinders on regarding the rules. This forum discusses how the rules are written, not necessarily how you would play them in a game.
In every game I play, if there is a question on how a rule can be applied and my opponent and I can't immediately agree, we roll off and discuss it later over a drink.
I've never had an opponent just pick up and leave because of the "type of game" I was playing.
Normally I wouldn't even respond to what you said, but you are wrong about me. Completely.

dajobe wrote: I am not saying that either my style or "the other side's" style of play is wrong, but it has become obvious neither side is going to give in, and unless someone is friends with whoever writes the official rules and can get them to give their opinion, i think its going to stay that way. So everyone, enjoy the game whether it be strict or flexible, but as i have said before in this thread, we have reached an impass.

I would not say that anyone's style of play is wrong unless I have actually played against them.
As far as rules debates go, I have a very good knowledge and understanding of the rules, but I am certainly not infallable or never wrong.
When I am presented with an argument that shows my position was in error, I have no problem admitting it and also have been known to change my opinion on rules matters from time to time when a number of different factors have been presented.
In this, I seem to be clearly in the minority.
More's the pity.

*reserved*

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, to pick apart your failed argument a little more, as you still missed the point:

Heading is Universal Special rules.

Is Kareen! a universal special rule? No
Is Immobilised a USR? No

Does this section therefore apply to either of those rules? NO

Your argument has no merit by going along these lines. Seriously. Reread it, and note the context. It says "these special rules" - so you cannot simply apply them to ANY special rule, as they apply ONLY to the USRs listed

CGM- i have proven which is more specific, and shown you exactly what is required for a rule to override another (see ATSKNF and Sweeping Advance for what "specify" means), and Kareen! does not do that. Your argument is still null

It says these Special rules but also dont forget that this is not all of them. There are more and Since you dont understand what Summary means. There is no getting through to you. You are going off a header and you want to stay strict to the words written but only to the ones you like. You are right on how it is talking about the special rules but you are still forgeting about the ones not listed. It might be written wrong but that is how it is written and it is now talking about all special rules.


This is how you read it,

If any of the Codexes
include one of these special rules and the rule is
different, the one in the Codex takes precedence
(and this represents how the general special rule
applies to that specific race).

This is what it says....

As this is just a summary, if any of the Codexes
include one of these special rules and the rule is
different, the one in the Codex takes precedence
(and this represents how the general special rule
applies to that specific race).

jordan23ryan wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, to pick apart your failed argument a little more, as you still missed the point:

Heading is Universal Special rules.

Is Kareen! a universal special rule? No
Is Immobilised a USR? No

Does this section therefore apply to either of those rules? NO

Your argument has no merit by going along these lines. Seriously. Reread it, and note the context. It says "these special rules" - so you cannot simply apply them to ANY special rule, as they apply ONLY to the USRs listed

CGM- i have proven which is more specific, and shown you exactly what is required for a rule to override another (see ATSKNF and Sweeping Advance for what "specify" means), and Kareen! does not do that. Your argument is still null

It says these Special rules but also dont forget that this is not all of them. There are more and Since you dont understand what Summary means. There is no getting through to you. You are going off a header and you want to stay strict to the words written but only to the ones you like. You are right on how it is talking about the special rules but you are still forgeting about the ones not listed. It might be written wrong but that is how it is written and it is now talking about all special rules.


This is how you read it,

If any of the Codexes
include one of these special rules and the rule is
different, the one in the Codex takes precedence
(and this represents how the general special rule
applies to that specific race).

This is what it says....

As this is just a summary, if any of the Codexes
include one of these special rules and the rule is
different, the one in the Codex takes precedence
(and this represents how the general special rule
applies to that specific race).

So if I read that correctly, you are saying that Kareen specifically says that it overides immobilized result. Can you please quote that part of the rule because IIRC, it only applies on a 3 or 4 on the ramshackle rules which only overides the wrecked and explodes results.

Jordan - no, simply no. Apparently there is no explaining this to you.

The heading is USR. It then says THESE SPECIAL RULES. WHich special rules would those be? Why, the UNIVERSAL SPECIAL RULES that the section is entitled!

If you dont understand really simple context such as that there really is no hope here.

If you move 12" in a trukk and try to ram a tank. My trukk blows up so i then have to roll on the ramshackle table. I roll three 6's which means i have to move 18". This would make 30" so far. Then it tells me to get out take a pinning test and those who live are good. Where in this rule does it tell me i can get out since i have move FLATOUT ? No where other then the special rule tells me i can. On top of that. I move 2 times, which is breaking the rules and on that my guys can get out and Assasult which is breaking the rules ? This is my point if you want to pick every damn special rule apart then you should not play with any since some people dont like them. You are asking for every special rule to state it is overriding all the plain rules but if you read what i have written about the SUMMARY part then this all starts making since to me, But hell that is just me !

jordan23ryan wrote: If you move 12" in a trukk and try to ram a tank. My trukk blows up so i then have to roll on the ramshackle table. I roll three 6's which means i have to move 18". This would make 30" so far. Then it tells me to get out take a pinning test and those who live are good. Where in this rule does it tell me i can get out since i have move FLATOUT ? No where other then the special rule tells me i can. On top of that. I move 2 times, which is breaking the rules and on that my guys can get out and Assasult which is breaking the rules ? This is my point if you want to pick every damn special rule apart then you should not play with any since some people dont like them. You are asking for every special rule to state it is overriding all the plan rules but if you read what i have written about the SUMMARY part then this all starts making since to me, But hell that is just me !

#1 you mvoed 12'' which is not flat out. Flat out for fast vehicle is 18''.

#2 If you read kaboom, you'll see that you apply the disembarking rule (or whatever the name of that rule). The d6 S3 damage is for those outside of the wagon (vehicle explodes). So fi you moved flatout and then kareen and then kaboom. The surviving passenger must disembark and do a pining test. Guess what, all the passengers are dead because you moved flat out.

#3, Just to really point that out. The rules says the surviving passengers disembark. So you must take the wounds of the explosion b4 getting out of the trukks. A pinning test does NOT kill models. It makes a unit go to ground.

What ?

Did you no understand what i was saying ? It's my fault.


12 is not flatout, when i role a 3 or 4 on ramshackle and then i have to move over 12" when i have to roll 3d6 that is moving flat out. In the rule it says you can get out after all the other stuff. In the BRB it says when you move flatout you may not ever get out ? This is my whole point, The special rule overrides what tjhe BRB says in the rule, the only thing it does not do is say This overrides flatout disembarking ? get it ?

jordan23ryan wrote:What ?

Did you no understand what i was saying ? It's my fault.


12 is not flatout, when i role a 3 or 4 on ramshackle and then i have to move over 12" when i have to roll 3d6 that is moving flat out. In the rule it says you can get out after all the other stuff. In the BRB it says when you move flatout you may not ever get out ? This is my whole point, The special rule overrides what tjhe BRB says in the rule, the only thing it does not do is say This overrides flatout disembarking ? get it ?

wow, you really like to bend the rules to your liking right???

I will quote the codex here:
Kaboom! blablabla. The truk is destroyed, All Passengers and models at D6 distance takes a S3 hit. Surviving passengers must disembark and take a pinnign test.

They disembark, can you disembark from a vehicle that moved flat out, no. Surviving passengers, none.

That is how I see it, and how my friends see it too.

Now, how is this even backing your argument on Kareen since Kareen does not say anything about overriding Immobilized results and (Let's say you are right about Kaboom) Kaboom does specify the disembark part??

-------------RAMSHACKLE------------------
If a trukk suffers a vehicle Destroyed! or Vehicle Explodes!(wrecked) result, roll on the Ramshaackle table below and apply the result instead of the usual Effects.If the trukk suffers more then one vechicle Destoryed! or Vehicle Explodes ! result, roll one dice per result on the ramshackle table, but only apply the lowest dice roll.

1-2 Kaboom-- The trukk explodes, catapulting flaming debris and stunned orks in all directions. The trukk is destoryed. all passengers and modles within D6" takes a str 3 hit. Surviving Passengers must disembark and take a pinning Test.

3-4 Kareen-- The shot sends the trukk out of controll. Move the trukk 3d6 as far as possible in a random direction(the Ork Player chooses if he rolls a Hit on the scatter dice). The apply the Kaboom result above. If the Trukk would kareen into enemy models or terrain, stop it 1" away.

5-6 Kerrunch-- Something Vital Gives, but the ork passengers bail out of there vehicle before it falls apart with a noise like a meganob falling down a spiral staircase. [b]The ork passengers take no damage but MUST immediately disembark. The Trukk is then wrecked.








Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bend what rules ? RAI and Raw are the most talked about items on this forum..... Right ? I am just making a point. Watch how you respond. You might get Flamed by nosferatu1001 lol Jk.