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Orks are top tier. Fearing an army or not is a sign of experience, as others have said. That doesn't mean they aren't good. I fear no army or list, as most experienced players don't, I see better or worse match ups. Dice, and other variables, are such a big factor that you can always find a way to win of the dice fall your way.

Tomb King wrote:I have never lost with Tau. I have beat Daemons, Vulcan Marines, World Eaters. In addition, with the emerging amount of GK players Tau actually have come up some in the competitive column. Tau can destroy some top grey knight builds with regularity. I saw a tau army board wipe a very strong grey knights army this weekend. It was crazy!

IMO Tau actually have a strong advantage against most GK lists. Psyflemen are underwhelming against Broadsides and Hammerheads, both offensively and defensively, and without that crutch most GK armies don't pack enough long-range shooting to do well against Tau.

Plus pathfinders taking away cover saves with railguns tearing things up really makes the psyrifle dread spam or shrouding/stormraven tactics void. Not to mention a few rounds of nice plasma shooting with pathfinder support will wipe a GK squad a turn or more so yes, Tau are actually really good it is just that not many good players are playing Tau these days. Now that I think of it, I kind of wish I chose Tau for my army haha... I miss my old army but I sold it because I liked close combat too much.

Oh, melta is what I was missing??? Darn, I knew it was something!

Anyone know the guy that made it with Witch Hunters in OR? I would really like to say hi and see what list he was running. Us last vestiges of the Witch Hunters need to stick together. I'm really debating if I will take them to the finals as I have an up hill battle in kill point missions, also I'm a little tired of 53 point Rhinos with smoke. On the flip side I love my Callidus Assassin to death.

From someone who played the C:WH in OR, here was his list (the guy said this was from memory):

two kitted-out cannonesses

elite inquisitor with hood
callidus assasin

5 battle sister squads, 3 with 2x melta and the other 2 had flamers and books
IG Infantry platoon
5 infantry squads with mortars and chimeras
PCS with 2x melta and heavy flamer and chimera

Dominion squad with 4 flamers and immolator

3 exorcists

Exorcist probably own Grey knights! D6 S8 Ap1 for the win!

Wow I'm surprised with the amount of IG players doing well in the semis. I think aside from KP missions, IG is still pretty formidable in competitive plays. Against other shooty armies(especially in KP), its very critical that IG get the first turn alpha strike.

Blackmoor wrote:There is a popular blog author that says that the Grey Knights aren't competitive because they lack melta.

Didnt you beat said blog author? I think that kinda invalidates that argument.

Orks have proven you don't need melta if you can have reliably hit vehicles with enough other high strength weapons

Gks have TL s8 auto cannons which are pretty scary vs almost all vehicles. Yes they dont do so hot against land raiders but luckily LRs arent very common due to the melta spam from OTHER lists. Get side shots vs other vehicles and spam them with S7 rending and S8 shots

It's all about how armies push and pull against each other during a tournament that dictate how they do. One popular army forces you to adjust, and that adjustment makes another army more competitive (or less). I've never had any issues with my GK lists (Granted I find them horribly boring and mind numbing)

thehod wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:There is a popular blog author that says that the Grey Knights aren't competitive because they lack melta.

Didnt you beat said blog author? I think that kinda invalidates that argument.

SonsofVulkan wrote:Wow I'm surprised with the amount of IG players doing well in the semis. I think aside from KP missions, IG is still pretty formidable in competitive plays. Against other shooty armies(especially in KP), its very critical that IG get the first turn alpha strike.

There were no kill point missions so people brought their IG more. Again I disagree with IG needing the first turn. A good IG player doesnt need to go first to beat there opponent. I literally built my list to go second lol.

Kirasu wrote:
I've never had any issues with my GK lists (Granted I find them horribly boring and mind numbing)

My main beef with grey knights. This is only made worse because there are sometimes 10 of the same boring list. I have grey knights but I didnt bring them for a multitude of reasons. I probably wont take them to the finals either unless the missions screw my other two armies.

I agree with the comment on going second - often times, I prefer this. It is advantageous many times to let the opponent set-up first, thus going second to maximize your own deployment and lanes of fire.

In fact, I think I went second all three games, the third game I had the initiative stolen, even. Still Massacred the opponent, so I think its a serious misconception to this Guard need to go first.

SonsofVulkan wrote:Wow I'm surprised with the amount of IG players doing well in the semis. I think aside from KP missions, IG is still pretty formidable in competitive plays. Against other shooty armies(especially in KP), its very critical that IG get the first turn alpha strike.

You're surprised? Semi's were practically made for IG, even I considered getting mine out of the closet for it.

-No DOW, which can be a real pain for IG/more stationary mech IG builds
-2x pitched battle
-No kp mission, except for a 1/3rd chance in the last round
-No kooky rules, whacky deployments, increased kp for transports, etc like we've seen in the past

was 2ed out of 48 players. 71/72points first has 71 too. he had 200more VP then me tho. was playing mech IG, first was playing GK PF spam with dreads.

game 1 vs IG
game 2 vs nids
game 3 vs GK storm

had a very good time tho this year and im going to go to the 3ed round in las vages if there holding it there this year too.

Julnlecs, are you equating FearFactor with Competitiveness (competitive as in can win at AB & GTs)? If so, then my post is relevant, if you're just talking about FearFactor, then just ignore the rest.

Julnlecs wrote:Yes but yet again, you're also talking about a codex that has trouble winning. I see Tau, Eldar, Chaos, Orks and Necrons that once you know how to beat them, they have a zero fear factor when you see them across the table from you.

Out of 41 players in round 2, in Southern Calif, it was mixed eldar that took first place, by a hair over BTs. Orks 3rd & Grimjob's Orks came in 4th. 41 players from a major megalopolis (Los Angeles), so it was very cut-throat, top-notch guys at the top tables.

After watching *that* AB, I pretty much no longer consider that 'weak' codexes really exist. ... okay Tau ( that's a wink at you Tomb King, complimentarily so), but in the hands of a capable player/general, the book doesn't matter.

DashofPepper has a reasonably documented run with Necrons this year. Yes, necrons. I don't think it matters which book he plays. He's good. Same goes for his buddy Hulksmash, who plays several armies in RTTs.

It's the general that makes for competition, not the book.

Edit:
Julnlecs, I just read in another thread that you were planning on being at Game Empire ... so if you were there, then you already know that Eldar won, BTs came in 2nd, etc. Which BA razor spam were you (I kindly ask) ?

Tomb King wrote:Exorcist probably own Grey knights! D6 S8 Ap1 for the win!

They would be, but in my game against WH I negated all three first turn. Thankfully.

I think I only lost one Exorcist the through all three games. There was too much other stuff running at them. 60 Sisters as troops with 6 meltas and 3 flamers and 3 heavy flamers that rend tend to get a lot of attention. Not to mention cover saves and keeping out of the range of most things that can touch me back.

Zerib wrote:I think I only lost one Exorcist the through all three games. There was too much other stuff running at them. 60 Sisters as troops with 6 meltas and 3 flamers and 3 heavy flamers that rend tend to get a lot of attention. Not to mention cover saves and keeping out of the range of most things that can touch me back.

Meltas were my second priority. Let my dreadnaughts and stormravens deal with the exorcists and the psycannons opened up the transports. Was a rough fight not going to lie, but the flamers and meltas did almost no damage to me in the long run. Melta wounds that made it through went on Draigo.

I also had two Multi-Melta Immolators so that helps too.

Not sure exactly were I placed. I think it was around 5-7th. Played same place as Blackmoor so around 20ish or so competitors.

I mainly played 40k right when 3rd ed came out, and quit when 4th ed started. My main army was always DE. The new release of the DE sucked me back into the game, and I dusted off my old DE.

It's been a bit of a transition learning the new rules compared to what I was used to playing, and I'm still fine tuning my army.

I took DE with:

Vect's stats for my Archon, his Dias of Destruction, with a Court of the Archon,
2x kitted out full squads of Incubi on Raiders,
6x five man troops (w/blaster) in Venoms,
3x Ravagers

1st game: I played against BLack Templars that had 3 LR's. The first LR I immobilized the very first turn, but the other two had Blessed Hull. Damnable Blessed Hull!! First time I've gone up against that and couldn't roll a 6 when it counted. He did the smart thing and kept his troops in the LR's until his very last turn (going second). Major Loss for me.

2nd game: vs. Daemons. All I could say about that one is that I'm glad there were some other people spectating and calling him out when he played his army wrong. I'm not going to say that he was deliberately trying to cheat but he did try to take a 4+ invul save when the turns previous it was a 5+. I know pretty much nothing about Daemons so I was willing to take anything he said at his word and just play the game. The spectators managed to keep him in line though. Had to call the TO over a couple times when he questioned me on some basic rules and his army list was basic hand writing that took up 1/4 page of note paper that wasn't much better than Blackmoor's opponent with no list. (Oh, and my opponents army was nicely painted).

Still managed to table him and won Major Victory. (we played that if you tabled you opponent you won by how many scoring units you still had left on the table).


3rd game: vs Eldar. Pretty fun game. Held back and shot, keeping my opponent stuck in his back corner, then rushed in and killed his troops. Victory conditions was terrain. Won with a Massacre.

Main thing I learned in this one was my ineffectiveness against the blessed hull. Which has led me to decide to tweak my army by ditching the Court and taking Trueborn w/ Haywire grenades and 4x blasters to ride with the Archon on the Dias. They are only 4 pts less than the Court. They may not be as good in CC but I'd use them mainly as specialize tank hunters against those really tough armor I sometimes go up against.

I won on Sunday in south Florida beating SW and 2 good DE players. I know DE was second but I had to book before they announced who was 3rd.

thehod wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:There is a popular blog author that says that the Grey Knights aren't competitive because they lack melta.

Didnt you beat said blog author? I think that kinda invalidates that argument.

Actually it's better than that, he who apparently shall not be named beat himself. He was like "Yo dawg I heard you like to win on the bottom of turn 5 so even though you shouldn't be able to this time I will let you win on the bottom of turn 5 LOLez my list is nonoptimized to be making the statements".

The big advantage that GK possess isn't that they are so powerful, it is that they are very well rounded against every one. They also are a terrible match up for the most recent and very popular codex before them and hose Mech lists. So against the field they are OP even though their rules are just strong, hardly broken.

Next time you hear some nasty Troke stories remember this one. I rolled 1,1,5,5 during a recent tournament. My DCA didn't need the opponent to be initiative 1.

Darkwynn wrote:I swear people are starting to say things just to annoy the crap out of me? Did you not see me point out in this same thread like twice already that the post on Bols is not the orginal leafblower and I don't know who your source was but I never went 9 times first in Ard boys to win all my games. Its been what two years now and people are still talking about that slowed list?

If this wasn't your leafblower list used in 'Ard Boyz then why did you link to it in your battle reports of your games at 'Ard Boyz? You do so in all three battle reports that you wrote.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/09/battle-report-ard-boys-round-1.html
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/10/battle-report-ard-boys-round-2.html
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/10/battle-report-ard-boys-round-3.html

I also won what 4 other events around the country with the same list!.

Er, so it's not your list, but you've won 4 other events with the list... that isn't yours...? Which is it? And what 40k events are using a 2500 points limit other than 'Ard Boyz?

Gladiator! BOOM!! Well...I think

Gladiator is 2250 I thought.

puma713 wrote:

mortetvie wrote:
Woot! I chose Grey Knights.

Says the guy fielding mephiston...

thehod wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:There is a popular blog author that says that the Grey Knights aren't competitive because they lack melta.

Didnt you beat said blog author? I think that kinda invalidates that argument.

Wait, so if I beat someone, it totally invalidates all the stuff they said. Saweet.

That being said, how does anyone consider GK not to be competitive?

GK are fine. Are they as good as IG and SW? Not in my opinion, but they are right up there, along with Ultramarines and BA in the upper crust. The lack of competitiveness I've seen with GKs has been lists, not the potential of the codex.

As far as Ard Boyz, this was my first (last two years missed due to various conflicts) and after taking first in the prelims with my DE, I was lucky enough to have a raging cold and be hopped up on DayQuil for this round. Had two really fun games against Draigowing and Blood Angels and was still in the mix, but then I crashed and became nearly hallucinogenic for the third game, against a good IG player in what was already a bad match up (Spearhead, Kill Points). I was so out of it, I gave him first turn after winning the roll, lol. Eh, who cares, he was good enough he probably would have beaten my short-ranged list handily anyway, but I would have liked to be lucid for it. My overall impression is that DE are great at 2K and below, but run out of steam at 2500. They can't fill out the org chart as nastily as the Marine dexes and simply lack the durability at the level to dominate in a tournament requiring massacres. That's just my impression, however, and could be heavily DayQuil-tainted.

Finally starting my battle reports. Here is a link: http://frostreaver.net/forums/entry.php?84-Ard-Boyz-Semi-s-Battle-Report-%28Cadian-56th-Mechanized-Division%29 enjoy. Currently working on pictures. Will have them eventually.

Skarboy wrote:GK are fine. Are they as good as IG and SW? Not in my opinion, but they are right up there, along with Ultramarines and BA in the upper crust. The lack of competitiveness I've seen with GKs has been lists, not the potential of the codex.

GKs are top dog. They edged Wolves off of the throne in terms of pure power, without question, IMO. As you said, a lot of people play bad lists, but in terms of power level inherent to the book, they are above all others.

Reecius wrote:

Skarboy wrote:GK are fine. Are they as good as IG and SW? Not in my opinion, but they are right up there, along with Ultramarines and BA in the upper crust. The lack of competitiveness I've seen with GKs has been lists, not the potential of the codex.

GKs are top dog. They edged Wolves off of the throne in terms of pure power, without question, IMO. As you said, a lot of people play bad lists, but in terms of power level inherent to the book, they are above all others.

I agree. It's not the problem with the codex that they aren't winning yet. It's the players themselves. Most people are still into the "shiny-new-model" syndrome. They really don't know how to build a truly balanced GK army yet. That's why at my Semi-finals location, none of the 6 GK armies (except myself) did particularly well. I don't think they have a firm grasp of a truly good GK army yet.