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Lynata wrote:9 hour rest periods? Not even I get to sleep that much.

Rest != sleep.

Nine hours a day of not working directly on their jobs. This means that they have nine hours to do laundry, bathe, sleep, eat, clean up dishes, etc. And that without the extra equipment that we modern folk have (because washing machines and dishwashers are likely only for the middle class and rich of the Imperium, not that much unlike IRL).

Really, they'd be lucky to get six hours of sleep, and that while likely physically needing more.

But none of this "work them to death" thing. That is not productive or efficient. Work them hard, but no so hard that they literally cannot continue work the next week without collapsing. That is bad for productivity, and thus bad for the governor's ability to pay taxes and to earn money on his/her own taxes on exports.

Why would the governor care? He has more labourers than he needs anyway. If they are too tired to work efficiently, they are too tired to plot rebellion. Best give them another 2 hours community service work on top of their time in the factories to make extra sure.

Jefffar wrote:Why would the governor care?

Because s/he has to pay taxes or be assassinated in a very painful way to be set as an example to the next sod that takes his/her place.

Jefffar wrote:He has more labourers than he needs anyway.

But not enough, and dead laborers have to be replaced by ones which are not trained and cannot do the job as efficiently; this takes time and cuts down on productivity, which harms the governor's ability to pay his/her taxes.

The governors of the Imperium are not all-powerful individuals-- powerful yes, but still they must obey two simple rules. Make sure their planet worships the Emperor, and pay their fething taxes owed to the Imperium. This concerns the latter. If they fail in it, the Imperium will gladly kill them and replace them with someone more suited to the task.

If the Imperium doesn't do it, someone else will.

Jefffar wrote:Why would the governor care? He has more labourers than he needs anyway. If they are too tired to work efficiently, they are too tired to plot rebellion. Best give them another 2 hours community service work on top of their time in the factories to make extra sure.

They probably don't have more workers than they need. Melissia and I don't agree on a lot, lol, but this is a pretty easy concept. The human body simply will not function on zero sleep and given the Imperium's paranoid stance on science and thought, it's fair certain that they aren't growing new people in vats in too many places, so those workers still have to have enough energy to go home and get their sexy time on in order to create the next generation of workers for the Emprah.

Yeah, life in the Imperium can be pretty hard. Yeah, on a lot of planets, it's not all that fun and exciting. But there are still simple biological truths that have to be accepted. The human body requires a certain amount of sleep. In certain situations, I could and did expect my Marines (and was expected myself) to be able to function for a few days on extremely limited sleep. But there's no way they would be able to function on three or less hours for long periods of time, let alone their entire enlistments, lol. And these were guys in good shape, not some sedentary, harried, overworked factory slog. And that's just their physical health, let alone mental health. I don't know which navy was working sailors 20 hours a day, but it sure wasn't the American one, and I can't remember any of the Royals I met looking like whip driven zombies. Did you serve in the Chinese Navy Lynata?

Unless work is extremely unskilled, it's inefficient to replace people over and over, constantly training and retraining. The Imperium is going to need all kinds of laborers, and not all of them are going to be doing something as easy as breaking big rocks into little rocks and pushing the same button over and over.

Besides, they can just use criminals to break big rocks in to little rocks. It's not like the imperium would just sit around with all those human resources and not strip mine them.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Did you serve in the Chinese Navy Lynata?

Nah, German Air Force.
But I do recall having heard and seen the "four hours of sleep" a lot when watching and reading documentations about life onboard an aircraft carrier.

David Allen describes his work in a matter-of-fact tone, but it sounds epic. The Sherman Park native and Navy seaman is a cook on an aircraft carrier, the USS George Washington. He and 39 others prepare 18,000 to 20,000 meals a day.
That’s a lot of potatoes. Allen is feeding four meals a day to about 5,500 people, about as many as live in Waupaca, only younger, more male and with a larger appetite. “You get on average four hours of sleep a night,” said Allen. “You get worn out.”
-- http://patrickmcilheran.wordpress.com/category/education/

As I was looking for something like the above quote I also noticed that it does not only happen in the Navy, though:

A guard cycle was four hours on and four hours off for twenty- four hours. When we were off, we usually filled sand bags and helped maintain our position. During this twenty-four hour period, we usually would get about three to four hours sleep.
-- http://www.themilitaryview.com/?q=node/168

Of course all of that isn't really healthy, but you can do it. Just like those children with their 18 hour shifts did. And when stuff like that happened or still happens in our real world ... again, why would it seem out of place in a setting like 40k? A setting where rushing conscripts over a mine field to clear a path for tanks is considered an acceptable military tactic, where the population of entire cities get burned because of a minor difference in religious dogma, where Hive nobility hunts commoners for sport, where giant cannons are manually loaded by a hundred crewmen pulling a two-storey projectile into the gun barrel via giant chains? A human life is worth nothing to the Imperium, and on Hive Worlds where the population is especially vast, a short lifespan due to people being overworked in addition to generally living in a polluted environment and not having a lot of good food to eat would simply be regarded as a convenient means of keeping population numbers in check. 40k simply is as silly as that. Actually, counting all the fluff, I would find this to be amongst the slightly more believable things I've read so far...

Just my interpretation, though. Worst case, we'll just agree to disagree.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Unless work is extremely unskilled, it's inefficient to replace people over and over, constantly training and retraining. The Imperium is going to need all kinds of laborers, and not all of them are going to be doing something as easy as breaking big rocks into little rocks and pushing the same button over and over.

That much is true, but it is my opinion that the majority of the worker class on a Hive World is comparatively unskilled. I see it as a vast crowd of people penned up in giant manufactoriums a bit like this and this. The skilled ones would be the Tech-Priests who show them the two or three steps of work they will then replicate throughout the entire day as whatever they were working on gets passed on to the next guy in the assembly line. I also don't think it is out of the question that you have workers with menial tasks such as simply pulling a lever over and over again. Though I imagine the foremen would know a bit more, too.

Melissia wrote:What off duty?

In between patrols


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Did you serve in the Chinese Navy Lynata?

Nah, German Air Force.
But I do recall having heard and seen the "four hours of sleep" a lot when watching and reading documentations about life onboard an aircraft carrier.
.

You can get by with two

http://www.cracked.com/article/127_5-ways-to-hack-your-brain-into-awesomeness/

im2randomghgh wrote:In between patrols

They're not off duty then.

I'm pretty sure when they're not killing heretics they spend their remaining time wishing they were still doing it.

Also, don't understand why people can't fathom why others see the sex appeal in sisters. Besides the obvious "people have different interests, deal with it", you have these women who are quite attractive based on a good portion of the artwork, and who use guns and anger to smite things all the live long day. No different than an action movie heroine.

Necroshea wrote:I'm pretty sure when they're not killing heretics they spend their remaining time wishing they were still doing it.

Also, don't understand why people can't fathom why others see the sex appeal in sisters. Besides the obvious "people have different interests, deal with it", you have these women who are quite attractive based on a good portion of the artwork, and who use guns and anger to smite things all the live long day. No different than an action movie heroine.

This. Oh, and Tadashi, now that I'm on holiday, I've given it a thought and decided I'm going to write the fan-fic.

Thanks a lot.

Fifteen minutes. That's all we Astartes get. Fifteen minutes. That's barely enough time to run down to the canteen, buy a sandwich, coke and a packet of crisps and eat them before its back to the humdrum purging of many heretics.

I'd imagine the Sororitas are much the same.

smudgethekat wrote:Fifteen minutes. That's all we Astartes get. Fifteen minutes. That's barely enough time to run down to the canteen, buy a sandwich, coke and a packet of crisps and eat them before its back to the humdrum purging of many heretics.

Since when Space Marines have free time? And 15 minutes to that?
I thought that in war times they can go weeks without sleep or food and water?

I've read through this. And I keep seeing people harping about Space Marines never having any free time and clearly never doing anything out of sorts.

And yet right up there in big print with an official codex of their own are Space Wolves.

We know they have piss ups on a regular basis.
We know they drink things dry, have feasts, tell sagas and generally live like a bunch of ruffian space vikings would.

Right there we have an example defying the canonical norm...whilst being canon in itself!

DarkStarSabre wrote:I've read through this. And I keep seeing people harping about Space Marines never having any free time and clearly never doing anything out of sorts.

And yet right up there in big print with an official codex of their own are Space Wolves.

We know they have piss ups on a regular basis.
We know they drink things dry, have feasts, tell sagas and generally live like a bunch of ruffian space vikings would.

Right there we have an example defying the canonical norm...whilst being canon in itself!

Then it depends on Chapter in question.
I doubt very much that Grey Knights or Blood Angels do that things.

Space Wolves are Space Wolves. They're pretty much the Hipster Marines in every way. The only Chapter able to wipe the floor with an entire Segmentum worth of Imperial Navy, having a couple hundred Marines hold their position against millions of Guardsmen, and flipping off the Inquisition without any fear of consequences whatsoever. They are also heavily drinking philosopher-pranksters who are the bestest warriors of the entire galaxy, and they are the most popular army in the Imperium in spite of having fought and crushed everyone else in the past.

For what it's worth, any kind of debate involving standards and conventions amongst the Space Marines should never involve anything from or about the Space Wolves.

Brother Coa wrote:Since when Space Marines have free time? And 15 minutes to that?
I thought that in war times they can go weeks without sleep or food and water?

That's from the "daily schedule" that was published in ... I think it was the 3E Marine Codex? I thought it was rather fitting. The 15 minutes were noted to be reserved for "self-reflection, thinking about one's role in the Imperium and the Emperor's glory", though the book also said that some Chapters did away with them completely because they regarded it as luxury. Heh.

Necroshea wrote:Also, don't understand why people can't fathom why others see the sex appeal in sisters. Besides the obvious "people have different interests, deal with it", you have these women who are quite attractive based on a good portion of the artwork, and who use guns and anger to smite things all the live long day. No different than an action movie heroine.

I'd have to agree there; the sexual appeal is pretty apparent, and as such a certain interest shouldn't be condemned. I sure have a lot of, uh, "impure" images on my harddrive as well. The only thing that disturbs me is when the Sisters' very role gets warped and twisted into that of victims of their gender by overly sexualized "fanart", ranging from these ridiculous high heels all the way to that infamous Marine+Sister pr0n or Slaneeshi rape depictions.

Lynata wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Since when Space Marines have free time? And 15 minutes to that?
I thought that in war times they can go weeks without sleep or food and water?

That's from the "daily schedule" that was published in ... I think it was the 3E Marine Codex? I thought it was rather fitting. The 15 minutes were noted to be reserved for "self-reflection, thinking about one's role in the Imperium and the Emperor's glory", though the book also said that some Chapters did away with them completely because they regarded it as luxury. Heh.

That doesn't sound like relaxation to me, if my free 15 minutes involves thinking about Emperor ( that is what I usually do in battle, while preparing for battle, after battle... ).
And why they need free time? They are holy warriors of Mankind, they only need their R.E.M sleep from time to time and that's all.

Lynata wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Also, don't understand why people can't fathom why others see the sex appeal in sisters. Besides the obvious "people have different interests, deal with it", you have these women who are quite attractive based on a good portion of the artwork, and who use guns and anger to smite things all the live long day. No different than an action movie heroine.

I'd have to agree there; the sexual appeal is pretty apparent, and as such a certain interest shouldn't be condemned. I sure have a lot of, uh, "impure" images on my harddrive as well. The only thing that disturbs me is when the Sisters' very role gets warped and twisted into that of victims of their gender by overly sexualized "fanart", ranging from these ridiculous high heels all the way to that infamous Marine+Sister pr0n or Slaneeshi rape depictions.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:In between patrols

They're not off duty then.

They're off patrol duty

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:In between patrols

They're not off duty then.

They're off patrol duty

... which isn't off duty.

They still have training and prayer as duties, and when they're not training or praying, they're talking about training or prayer, or eating or sleeping...

It's a very dedicated life.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:In between patrols

They're not off duty then.

They're off patrol duty

... which isn't off duty.

They still have training and prayer as duties, and when they're not training or praying, they're talking about training or prayer, or eating or sleeping...

It's a very dedicated life.

Having to stay in the convent between patrols doesn't mean they're not off duty.

I consider them not wearing power armour and holding a bolter off duty.

im2randomghgh wrote:I consider them not wearing power armour and holding a bolter off duty.

You'd be wrong, then, especially from their point of view. Sisters don't see themselves as "off-duty" when they aren't in power armor. They're just doing a different kind of duty, that of training and prayer (which to them are one and the same).

Lynata wrote:For what it's worth, any kind of debate involving standards and conventions amongst the Space Marines should never involve anything from or about the Space Wolves.

And why not? The odd one out still exists. Stands to reason there are probably some 'looser' Orders and Chapters out there. Hell, when the big names fluctuate that much it's got to be a sign.

Space Wolves - Space Vikings! Drinking, fighting, drinking, singing.
Dark Angels - Buggering off at the drop of a hat, much to their allies' surprise!
Blood Angels - Some are sane, others, like the Flesh Tears....er....aren't.


Why wouldn't there be an Order or at least a few sub-orders of Sisters that are much more lenient or relaxed with their ways, hmm? We already have SM Chapters that are. We have IG Regiments that are. Hell, there's even eccentric Necrons!

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:I consider them not wearing power armour and holding a bolter off duty.

You'd be wrong, then, especially from their point of view. Sisters don't see themselves as "off-duty" when they aren't in power armor. They're just doing a different kind of duty, that of training and prayer (which to them are one and the same).

Just I see them a bit like soldiers-returning to the barracks for the day counts as off duty, even if they still have religious functions to attend.

DarkStarSabre wrote:Why wouldn't there be an Order or at least a few sub-orders of Sisters that are much more lenient or relaxed with their ways, hmm?

Because that has been flatly ruled out in the Sisters' fluff.

At least if you go by studio material such as the Codices and White Dwarf articles. Which of course you don't have to, but it should still be mentioned.

Because that has been flatly ruled out in the Sisters' fluff.

At least if you go by studio material such as the Codices and White Dwarf articles. Which of course you don't have to, but it should still be mentioned.

According to that same material all Lizardmen in Fantasy are blue. Which is complete BS as prior to that Lizardmen could be shades of green, brown, reds, yellows, oranges....

Fluff is what you make of it to be frank. There are likely sub-orders and orders that break away from the norm. Unless of course Sisters are destined to become the number 1 GK bathing supplement, right next to Head and Shoulders.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

Because that has been flatly ruled out in the Sisters' fluff.

At least if you go by studio material such as the Codices and White Dwarf articles. Which of course you don't have to, but it should still be mentioned.

According to that same material all Lizardmen in Fantasy are blue. Which is complete BS as prior to that Lizardmen could be shades of green, brown, reds, yellows, oranges....

Fluff is what you make of it to be frank. There are likely sub-orders and orders that break away from the norm. Unless of course Sisters are destined to become the number 1 GK bathing supplement, right next to Head and PAULDRONS.

Fixed.

DarkStarSabre wrote:Fluff is what you make of it to be frank.

Hence me saying that it's up to you. For what it's worth, you can also do Female Space Marines, that's just as valid as these supposed Sisters of Slack.

Some people just prefer staying more in line with what they've grown up with, how they grew to like a faction. And for me, it's how GW intended the Sisters, how the studio writers described them to me via their print material. Not to mention that straying too far from a certain "common ground" will also remove any kind of compatibility. You can't just remove an aspect of the Sisterhood and expect the entire structure to hold up as well as before in the setting as a whole. Background works like a Jenga tower, you see. Change too much and it all comes tumbling down.

I also don't recall ever having read about Lizardmen in an SoB article.

Not that I'd complain. Lizardmen are cool.

Don't go there. Don't get me started on GW's 'All Lizardmen are blue' proclamations.

Especially after a 5th edition Lizard army that was reds and greens.
Especially after a 6th edition Lizard army that was greens with some purples.
Especially after a current 7th/8th edition Lizard army that is browns and blacks!

GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

Back on topic....

Eh, it all depends in the end. Fluff changes that drastically anyway, so what may be true now wasn't 3 years ago and won't be in a year's time.

Hell, the last SM codex shook it up proper (as they all now want to be Ultramarines, so very much).

All this talk about alternate orders of Sisters of Battle and the Space Wolves having their own code and . . .


Well now I can't help but think of creating a female auxiliary for the Space Wolves who party just as hard as they do. They'll count as Sisters of Battle, but call themselves the Space B*tches.

DarkStarSabre wrote:Fluff changes that drastically anyway, so what may be true now wasn't 3 years ago and won't be in a year's time.

Whilst that was true for some things, it was not for the Sororitas. Hell, as GW introduced the Witch Hunters Codex they even gave a statement saying that everything you've ever read about the Sisters is still in effect, up to and including the little bits in the original Rogue Trader rulebook. Now that's consistency!

Too bad that this consistency is not applied outside the walls of the studio, and that even GW has changed a few details with the last WD Minidex. Small details, but unnecessary and somewhat frustrating (for me) nonetheless.

I would also argue that there's a difference between simply sticking to an old version of a faction or completely inventing a new one that doesn't quite fit in with the rest - but it'd still be up to you. Lack of canon means anything goes, and just because *I* don't like it and think it violates the very spirit of the army doesn't mean anything. The decision of how much one wants to make his own creation fit into other pre-existing stuff rests entirely on the writer.