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Sisters seriously need more love from GW and the others.

One novel would be nice, we already have to much HH and Marine novels...

Brother Coa wrote:One novel would be nice, we already have to much HH and Marine novels...

"Hammer & Anvil", the sequel to "Faith & Fire" was released a few weeks ago. Sister Miriya is starting to become a recurring character in the licensed material, this is her third appearance already.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Hammer-and-Anvil.html

DarkStarSabre wrote:We already have SM Chapters that are. We have IG Regiments that are. Hell, there's even eccentric Necrons!

Because Sisters aren't Space Marines, and Sisters aren't Imperial Guard, and Sisters aren't Necrons?

im2randomghgh wrote:Just I see them a bit like soldiers-returning to the barracks for the day counts as off duty, even if they still have religious functions to attend.

You can see them that way, but you'd be wrong.

Training and prayer to a Sister are the same thing essentially. It is nothing at all like a soldier going to church in his off hours.

But they are human and humans are all about being messed up and generally all over the place. It's sort of what we do. (Well, not me. Obviously. I am some bizarre Tyranid-Lizardman Wreck Gar, obviously.)

Great. Now we're straying to philosophy.

Sounds nice, can't wait for Sisters to kick Necron scaly metallic buts

But I don't have the money now, and even if I had I had to wait for like 2 months to receive a book.
Thank you, I will order "Faith & Fire" to.

DarkStarSabre wrote:But they are human and humans are all about being messed up and generally all over the place. It's sort of what we do.

Well, maybe you can find us a nun convent in our real world that works as chilled as that, since obviously it must exist.

Brother Coa wrote:But I don't have the money now, and even if I had I had to wait for like 2 months to receive a book.
Thank you, I will order "Faith & Fire" to. :thunbsup:

Gladly! I'm sure you will like it.
"Red & Black" is nice, too. A bit predictable and they could have use more voices, but still a fittingly grimdark ending.
Also, "Daemonifuge" is Print on Demand now.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Faith-and-Fire.html
http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/red-and-black.html
http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/daemonifuge-print-on-demand.html

DarkStarSabre wrote:But they are human

... and this makes them exactly identical to every other human how?

Oh wait, it doesn't.

Sisters are, for the most part, a mostly monolithic group for better or worse, and are one of the few armies in 40k that can claim that descriptor. That is to say, the standardized upbringing and training at the Schola Progenium does not lend itself much to variation.

DarkStarSabre wrote:But they are human and humans are all about being messed up and generally all over the place.

Now that's not fair, Imperials are not guilty because they fight for survival for over 10.000 years and are little xenophobic.
Sisters are unique, because they are holy warriors. Completely devoted to their cause, witch brings them above ordinary Humans and in ranks of Astartes themselves.
Think about them as mix of Crusaders and Joan of Arcs in Gothic inspired space.

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Did you serve in the Chinese Navy Lynata?

Nah, German Air Force.
But I do recall having heard and seen the "four hours of sleep" a lot when watching and reading documentations about life onboard an aircraft carrier.

David Allen describes his work in a matter-of-fact tone, but it sounds epic. The Sherman Park native and Navy seaman is a cook on an aircraft carrier, the USS George Washington. He and 39 others prepare 18,000 to 20,000 meals a day.
That’s a lot of potatoes. Allen is feeding four meals a day to about 5,500 people, about as many as live in Waupaca, only younger, more male and with a larger appetite. “You get on average four hours of sleep a night,” said Allen. “You get worn out.”
-- http://patrickmcilheran.wordpress.com/category/education/

As I was looking for something like the above quote I also noticed that it does not only happen in the Navy, though:

A guard cycle was four hours on and four hours off for twenty- four hours. When we were off, we usually filled sand bags and helped maintain our position. During this twenty-four hour period, we usually would get about three to four hours sleep.
-- http://www.themilitaryview.com/?q=node/168

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Marine was talking about one day out of a three day cycle in a combat zone.

Because 5-6 hours on day 2 are so much better.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I'm throwing the bs flag on the Navy one. The ship's CO would lose his career if that story was true and came to light.

Google it, that's not an isolated case - though it is more common in wartimes and also seems to depend on the post you have.

"The results, displayed in Figure 4, show that individuals who worked belowdecks (and never saw daylight) received 7.35 hours of sleep, while those Sailors who worked topside averaged only 4.72 hours of sleep per day (t = 6.19, p < 0.001)."
-- http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a550390.pdf

DTIC is a DoD website, by the way. Then again, I don't know what your sources are regarding the average amount of sleep of the various groups of uniformed personnel.

Melissia wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:But they are human

Sisters are, for the most part, a mostly monolithic group for better or worse, and are one of the few armies in 40k that can claim that descriptor. That is to say, the standardized upbringing and training at the Schola Progenium does not lend itself much to variation.

And whatever there's left in them that we'd recognize as human is probably what earns them all those prayer beads, said to symbolize penance for some sin or other. You think "hot sister", she thinks "I must seek penance for giving fuel to sinful thoughts in that weak person". You think one can have a day off, she thinks it's a sin to sit idle when there's the Emperor's work to be done. That's not to say they don't sin - just that they'll consider even minor infractions as something to report themself for and receive penance. A sister will have to be pretty badly shaken before she'll engage in anything we modern people would consider sinful, or even frivolous... unless it's her duty in the name of the Emperor ofc.

I don't know. Maybe they just sit around and talk gossip about each other like regular human women. Or maybe they talk about the newest boots they have for sale at Nordstroms. Or the scarf they saw at abercrombie for 45$. Or that dress at Express that was on sale for 215$.

Lol

Oh boy. This reminds me of something. ;P

Wow, it's really big...
And the vibrations....

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Marine was talking about one day out of a three day cycle in a combat zone.

Because 5-6 hours on day 2 are so much better.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I'm throwing the bs flag on the Navy one. The ship's CO would lose his career if that story was true and came to light.

Google it, that's not an isolated case - though it is more common in wartimes and also seems to depend on the post you have.

"The results, displayed in Figure 4, show that individuals who worked belowdecks (and never saw daylight) received 7.35 hours of sleep, while those Sailors who worked topside averaged only 4.72 hours of sleep per day (t = 6.19, p < 0.001)."
-- http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a550390.pdf

DTIC is a DoD website, by the way. Then again, I don't know what your sources are regarding the average amount of sleep of the various groups of uniformed personnel.

Wait, you posted a DoD study designed to show how detrimental sleep loss is, as evidence that it's possible for human beings to live and function on a perpetual sleep deprived basis? We'll avoid delving too far into the psychological and physiological reasons why the topside sailors would struggle to sleep as much as their below decks counterparts, but it is also important to remember that nearly five hours of sleep is actually almost sixty percent more than the three that might be possible on a twenty hour work schedule. And sailors are expected to do this only for short periods of time, not on an extended basis, or their entire lives. Your own data shows that sailors report seven and a half to eight hours on leave (30 days a year), and six to six and a half when not underway.

I never said military members don't work on less sleep. In fact, I said the exact opposite. I just said it's impossible for the human body to continue functioning with three or less hours sleep on a perpetual basis. Th fact is, there has never once in history existed a work schedule like you've described. Even in the Victorian age at the dawn of industrialization.

Lynata wrote:Oh boy. This reminds me of something. ;P

This oddly turned me on.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I never said military members don't work on less sleep. In fact, I said the exact opposite. I just said it's impossible for the human body to continue functioning with three or less hours sleep on a perpetual basis.

"What is the minimum amount of sleep we can survive on?" - "The shortest sleepers tend to be around three hours, three to four and a half hours, so there's an element of that."
-- http://www.videojug.com/expertanswer/the-effects-of-sleep-deprivation-2/what-is-the-minimum-amount-of-sleep-we-can-survive-on

"It is currently a bit unclear how much sleep is needed per night, but four hours seems to be the absolute minimum for normal function."
-- http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Individual/Mental/sleep.html

"So how much sleep do you need? Anything from three to 11 hours a night is normal, says sleep expert Dr Neil Stanley.
‘If you feel awake during the day, however much you’re getting is enough.
The problem is that there is this idea that everyone needs eight hours.
This means many who need less sleep assume they are insomniacs, while the nine to 11 hours a nighters worry they should cut down,’ he says."
-- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1354600/Health-news-Three-hours-sleep-building-model-aircraft-prevents-depression.html

So ... yeah.
But as I already mentioned earlier, personally I would fully expect twenty hour shifts, even with breaks, to have a detrimental effect on the workforce. Just that the government wouldn't care. Because this is 40k. Welcome to Grimdark.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The fact is, there has never once in history existed a work schedule like you've described. Even in the Victorian age at the dawn of industrialization.

"Children as young as five years old can be found working up to twenty hour shifts in unsafe and unhealthy conditions sewing together soccer balls for major companies like Adidas."
-- http://ihscslnews.org/view_article.php?id=69

Lynata wrote:But as I already mentioned earlier, personally I would fully expect twenty hour shifts, even with breaks, to have a detrimental effect on the workforce. Just that the government wouldn't care. Because this is 40k.

The government would care if it had a detrimental effect on their bottom line.

Melissia wrote:The government would care if it had a detrimental effect on their bottom line.

There I fully agree. But just like the masses of bodies that feed the Imperial Guard, there will always be more lower class workers for the giant manufactoriums. At least on a Hive World.

Google "the uberman sleep schedule"

Enough sleep to function at maximum intellectual and physcial capacity with only two hours a day!!!

im2randomghgh wrote:
Enough sleep to function at maximum intellectual and physcial capacity with only two hours a day!!!

But I love to sleep.....

The Uberman Sleep is pretty sick. It sounds pretty in terms of saving a lot of time you'd otherwise "waste" with unnecessary sleep phases, but then again it makes me think you'd completely mess up your life if you miss out on one of those "every three hour" naps. And I don't think I could ever get used to such a schedule...

Lynata wrote:The Uberman Sleep is pretty sick. It sounds pretty in terms of saving a lot of time you'd otherwise "waste" with unnecessary sleep phases, but then again it makes me think you'd completely mess up your life if you miss out on one of those "every three hour" naps. And I don't think I could ever get used to such a schedule...

It isn't something you could really do for a desk job, but if you work from home/self employed it shouldn't be a problem,

http://youtu.be/XLTg2nHZEHQ

Uberman Sleep Seinfeld style

I like the Sororitas because a.) They actually represent what competence and intelligence the Ecclesiarchy might have (unlike the guys in power they answer to) and b.) they serve a myriad of useful functions beyond actual combat and c.) They're an interesting take (both good and bad) into the religious and the female side of 40K both. They represent the tangible, solid benefits of faith, nad what humanity can aspire to at least from the religious angle (which is the best approach to achieving the Emperor's goals at this point.) They don't just fight in wars in power armor, and they aren't just 'space marines with boobs'. They also represent a highly intellectual side of 40K that covers many areas. There are the Famulous, who guide, educate, and generally seek to improve what is generally useless nobility and make them useful to the Imperium (and when they prove troublesome, they remove them.) The Dialogus who deal with history, language, and various other knowledge subjects that others don't deal with. There are the Hospitallers, who run the hospices and charity organizations and generally seek to improve the health and well being of the Emperor's subjects, both in military and civilian life. The last two at LEAST are as important as the gun toting militants, and in my opinion moreso.

That said, I think the 'best' Sisters tend to be the ones who embody the pure, tangible faith that makes them different from Marines and gives them the qualities and abilities that make them their own part of 40K (Like in Faith and ifre when they faced down psykers without aid, or in the Aescarion Short story from Let the Galaxy Burn where Aescarion manages to bring a corrupt Ultramarine back from Chaos' clutches and turns the champion against one of Nurgle's spawn. Now THAt is badass.) I tend to dislike how they get treated in Redemption Corps or Flesh and Iron (although the male, upper echelons of the Ecclesairchy can be such pompous donkey-caves that approach isn't wholly impossible. It just sucks that the Sisters have to be misused by the F$cking Priests that way.)



Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as the "sleep" thing.. it really depends on the world. I've seen all sorts of depictions. IIRC from Andy Chamber's "Survival Instinct' necromunda story it implied that the factory workers worked some pretty grueling shifts (like 80 hour weeks or something to that effect) by our standards, but they weren't exactly worked to death. They had time for eating, sleeping (to some extent) worship, and various other things.

People put too much stock in the more propoganda oriented fluff of the codexes - stuff lke 'human life is worthless and people die in droves and blah blah blah' because that's the silly sort of grimdark crap 40K has always had its roots in and it is meant to be taken with a grain of salt. If the Imperium really ran that way disease and death and gak would be far more rampant than it is. They wouldn' waste time shipping (or producing) food for the Guard, for the factory workers, or anything like that. After all, wasting valuable time and space on making food takesa way from making tanks, guns, ammo etc. They'd just make everyone a fething servitor (but then they'd be more like the 'Nids. Or more like that Hydra hive mind thing from the Inquisition War novels.)

In theory the Munitorum knows this. They expect certain amount of human 'maintenance' goes on (indeed, in the cases like the Guard, things liek hygiene and nutrition and such matter). But this isn't happy happy fun sunshine just because people eat and get sleep. The taste of the food is of secondary importance to its nutritional content. A Guardsman is expected to maintain a certain level of physical and mental preparation. They have to allot some free time for propoganda and religious indoctrination (going to church, what passes for entertainmnet, etc.) as well as to have some outlet to appease the masses. Those same peasants also are what drive the 40K economy such as it is - you can't conduct war if you don't have the money and resources to pull it off, and greed and wealth and rich jerks have not vanished from 40K.

So in theory you can expect a certain level of 'decent' treatment (barring certain exceptions) - but that treatment also reflects how a person is treated more like a commodity or a resource - it's an impersonal, cold, and logical sort of 'decency' driven more by necessity and practicality (again in theory) than any sort of positive emotion. It's the way you would treat a pet or livestock or even machinery (even servitors and tanks and other machines need maintenance to run at peak performance, even if that cuts into production time.) This may not be the 'traditional' sort of girmdark as emphasized in some source, but its pretty cold, brutal, and depressing in its own way, and its not nearly as ridiculous.

That said, the actual 'treatment' can vary widely depending on planet, ruler, and circumstances. THere can be planets where people are treated like absolute gak and even their basic needs ignored or reduced to bare minimums (like Sephiris Secundus in The Dark Heresy books.) and being perceived as a criminal, a heretic, or a second class citizen (such as a mutant or a psyker) can make things even worse for you.

I imagine that different orders have different attitudes to "off time". Some of the more liberal ones may allow their members time to socialise outside of the convent, and even marry. Others may only allow "breaks" within the confines of the convent itself, and others may have sisters spending time in a Sister of Battle equivalent of the Pain-Glove. After all, real nun convents are often very different to each other. I would also imagine that sisters have to go on some kind of pilgrimage every now and then.

Of course, Mellissia, if I've made any mistakes, do tell. me. Aftr all, you know more on this subject than me.

If you're going by GW's own fluff then ...

1) The various Orders are not that different from each other, as they all trace back their origin to the San Leor temple, whose teachings they follow to this very day. All Orders also have a unifying command structure that makes all Minor Orders subservient to their maternal Major Order, and all Major Orders subservient to the Prioress of their Head Convent, and the two Prioresses subservient to a single Abbess. There's also a lot of internal transfers between the Orders going on.

2) All Sororitas convents are completely isolated. Only a Canonesses most trusted Sisters Superior are allowed to deal with outsiders. As the Codex notes, the Sisters are "utterly dedicated to one task or duty and brook no distraction from their studies".

3) The Sororitas are "married" solely to their holy task. The very concept of marriage is anathema to their dedication to the Emperor alone.

The pilgrimage sounds realistic, though I'm not sure if I'd deem it necessary or even common. But even on a pilgrimage, I wouldn't exactly see the Sister as being "off duty" - she would continue to pray and meditate, probably help other pilgrims as well (protecting them, assisting with prayer services, generally being a good example for Imperial citizens etc).

Of course, there are various licensed products, chiefly Black Library novels, that kind of go against the depiction in the Codices. It'd be up to you as an individual which interpretation you prefer.

Sisters don't marry. Ever. One of their many rules, that applies to all of the Orders, is "cleave only unto the Emperor." This means they're both chaste and celibate.

Ok, coming back to this after the holiday break.

@ Melissia, as I see from what you wrote, I think we are in agreement over what I had written.

Sisters of Battle are of the Orders Militant and that there are other Orders of Sisters that do things, like Brother Coa suggested, in civilian areas of practice.
SoB Sister Mary Heavy Flamer, say from Order of the Valorous Heart, vs Sister Mary Black&Decker from say the Order of the Shining Tower (Civil Engineers).
Both train hard, both among the best at what they do, but are different individuals from different Orders with a different focus.

Zakiriel wrote: So to me that means that there can be "Sisters" doing several civilian side service projects but not waste the precious training hours of the "Sisters Militant" as they are not the same individuals.

Melissia wrote:

They send "precious hours" doing OTHER training.

And you're acting like those that aren't members oft he Orders Militant aren't actually Sisters.

If so, you're wrong. They are Sisters-- just not Sisters of Battle. They are the Sisters Hospitaller (the best medics and doctors in the Imperium bar none), Sisters Famulous (who manage the noble houses, track breeding of said houses, make sure nobles pay tithes, etc), Sisters Dialogous (by far the best omniglots in the Imperium), and so on. There's also other innumerable minor orders which have entirely separate duties.

All of these train unrelentingly for their duties, and do NOT train less than the Sisters of Battle do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/28 04:38:56

Zakiriel wrote:Melissia, as I see from what you wrote, I think we are in agreement over what I had written.

No. I do not agree with your assertion that the non-militant orders do not train just as hard as the militant ones. I do not know if you intended to say this, but you did.