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Nemesor Dave wrote:
ReRolls - "If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." The number of dice to reroll must be specified, in this case "one"!

Explicit. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (movie quote - not calling you out)

Just like sweeping advance must be mentioned, permission to re-roll one out of a set of dice must be mentioned. That's what explicit permission means. And that's what you've been misunderstanding.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
ReRolls - "If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." The number of dice to reroll must be specified, in this case "one"!

Explicit. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (movie quote - not calling you out)

Just like sweeping advance must be mentioned, permission to re-roll one out of a set of dice must be mentioned. That's what explicit permission means. And that's what you've been misunderstanding.

Out of two, to say "re-roll one" is explicitly specifying "some of them."

Nemesor Dave wrote:Out of two, to say "re-roll one" is explicitly specifying "some of them."

It still says re-roll one roll. Half of a roll is not explicitly mentioned in that.

This wins:

rigeld2 wrote:Explicit. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
ReRolls - "If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." The number of dice to reroll must be specified, in this case "one"!

Explicit. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (movie quote - not calling you out)

Just like sweeping advance must be mentioned, permission to re-roll one out of a set of dice must be mentioned. That's what explicit permission means. And that's what you've been misunderstanding.

Out of two, to say "re-roll one" is explicitly specifying "some of them."

No, it's not.

It's allowing a re-roll of a d6 roll. We've established that a d6 roll is separate and distinct from a 2d6 roll.
Where is the explicit specific allowance to re-roll one die out of a 2d6 roll? Remember the example from sweeping advance (which is why it's relevant no matter how much you don't want it to be).
It needs to mention the rule it's allowing you to bypass.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
ReRolls - "If you re-roll a 2d6 or 3d6 roll, you must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll explicitly specifies otherwise." The number of dice to reroll must be specified, in this case "one"!

Explicit. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (movie quote - not calling you out)

Just like sweeping advance must be mentioned, permission to re-roll one out of a set of dice must be mentioned. That's what explicit permission means. And that's what you've been misunderstanding.

Out of two, to say "re-roll one" is explicitly specifying "some of them."

No, it's not.

It's allowing a re-roll of a d6 roll. We've established that a d6 roll is separate and distinct from a 2d6 roll.
Where is the explicit specific allowance to re-roll one die out of a 2d6 roll? Remember the example from sweeping advance (which is why it's relevant no matter how much you don't want it to be).
It needs to mention the rule it's allowing you to bypass.

One last time

General = Re-roll All.
Reroll leadership. - Not specified.
Reroll rolls to wound. Not specific.
Reroll rolls to penetrate. Not specific.

Specific = a precise number -exactly explicitly specified. Number = Not all.
Re-roll one D6. Specific. Not "all". Reroll 1 dice
Re-roll 2D6. Also specific. Again, not All. Reroll 2 dice.

The rules of 40k will never take you in baby steps through every little possibility which is why there is not and will never be a rule like you're requiring. No rule will ever say "reroll 1D6 out of as many dice as you are required to roll." There is a certain level of logic required. You can figure out one is a specific number therefore doesn't mean all.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
One last time

General = Re-roll All.
Reroll leadership. - Not specified.
Reroll rolls to wound. Not specific.
Reroll rolls to penetrate. Not specific.

Specific = a precise number -exactly explicitly specified. Number = Not all.
Re-roll one D6. Specific. Not "all". Reroll 1 dice
Re-roll 2D6. Also specific. Again, not All. Reroll 2 dice.

The rules of 40k will never take you in baby steps through every little possibility which is why there is not and will never be a rule like you're requiring. No rule will ever say "reroll 1D6 out of as many dice as you are required to roll." There is a certain level of logic required. You can figure out one is a specific number therefore doesn't mean all.

Use the entire rule please.

Re-roll one d6 roll. Is a 2d6 roll a d6 roll?

If Chronometron said "you may re-roll a d6" you would have an argument. It doesn't. It says "you may re-roll a single d6 roll. A very very important distinction. I pointed out examples where the rules specify to make a D6 roll. I pointed out examples where the rule specifies to make a 2D6 roll. However, you are clinging to your interpretation that a D6 roll is the same as a 2d6 roll (BTW, a 2xd6 roll would give you a result of [2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12] which is NOT the same as 2d6.).

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
One last time

General = Re-roll All.
Reroll leadership. - Not specified.
Reroll rolls to wound. Not specific.
Reroll rolls to penetrate. Not specific.

Specific = a precise number -exactly explicitly specified. Number = Not all.
Re-roll one D6. Specific. Not "all". Reroll 1 dice
Re-roll 2D6. Also specific. Again, not All. Reroll 2 dice.

The rules of 40k will never take you in baby steps through every little possibility which is why there is not and will never be a rule like you're requiring. No rule will ever say "reroll 1D6 out of as many dice as you are required to roll." There is a certain level of logic required. You can figure out one is a specific number therefore doesn't mean all.

Use the entire rule please.

Re-roll one d6 roll. Is a 2d6 roll a d6 roll?

2d6 is rolling 2 D6's. We came back to it before because I think someone reading this whole thread can agree.

If 2D6 is one roll and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice, then you are right.

If 2D6 is two dice rolled, and one of those D6's can be re-rolled separately, then I am right.

At this time, in this entire thread there is not even one example of a rule that makes you see all 2D6 rolls as one thing. There are many instances where multiple dice are considered separately. Anywhere that is roll two and take the highest. Rolling of doubles requires separate evaluation too. There are many many example of 2D6 being 2 dice that are evaluated separately. And in the case of Chronometron, 2D6 is 1D6 + 1D6 where you may re-roll 1D6.

So it lets you re-roll d3 as well then.

Nemesor Dave wrote:2d6 is rolling 2 D6's. We came back to it before because I think someone reading this whole thread can agree.

If 2D6 is one roll and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice, then you are right.

If 2D6 is two dice rolled, and one of those D6's can be re-rolled separately, then I am right.

At this time, in this entire thread there is not even one example of a rule that makes you see all 2D6 rolls as one thing. There are many instances where multiple dice are considered separately. Anywhere that is roll two and take the highest. Rolling of doubles requires separate evaluation too. There are many many example of 2D6 being 2 dice that are evaluated separately. And in the case of Chronometron, 2D6 is 1D6 + 1D6 where you may re-roll 1D6.

Page 2. The concept of re-rolling both dice means it's one thing.

Also, you're ignoring the fact that Chrono says "a d6 roll" not, "a d6."

You might have a point if it was the latter. Since it's not, you don't. A d6 roll is separate and distinct from a 2d6 roll.

Nemesor Dave wrote:If 2D6 is one roll and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice, then you are right.

This is true, except for the stated "and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice", which, although generally true deliberately tries to ignore the fact that there are exceptions to rules that DO call out specific parts of any action.
There are things that tell you to roll multiple dice and to look for individual results.
Those are stated as such because normally you do not.

A 3D6 roll is not three rolls, despite the fact that you are rolling three dice - simultaneously.

OMG, rigeld, I said the exact same thing about the wording!

Happyjew wrote:OMG, rigeld, I said the exact same thing about the wording!

To be fair, most of us have done that in this thread at some point.

It is kind of hard not to with the actual answer in black and white.

Happyjew wrote:OMG, rigeld, I said the exact same thing about the wording!

Yeah, as I said earlier to foolishmortal, all we're doing is re-wording what has already been said... Not trying to claim what I've said is unique.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:2d6 is rolling 2 D6's. We came back to it before because I think someone reading this whole thread can agree.

If 2D6 is one roll and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice, then you are right.

If 2D6 is two dice rolled, and one of those D6's can be re-rolled separately, then I am right.

At this time, in this entire thread there is not even one example of a rule that makes you see all 2D6 rolls as one thing. There are many instances where multiple dice are considered separately. Anywhere that is roll two and take the highest. Rolling of doubles requires separate evaluation too. There are many many example of 2D6 being 2 dice that are evaluated separately. And in the case of Chronometron, 2D6 is 1D6 + 1D6 where you may re-roll 1D6.

Page 2. The concept of re-rolling both dice means it's one thing.

Also, you're ignoring the fact that Chrono says "a d6 roll" not, "a d6."

You might have a point if it was the latter. Since it's not, you don't. A d6 roll is separate and distinct from a 2d6 roll.

This doesn't change anything.

If a 2D6 roll is two 1D6 rolls then I am right.
If a 2D6 roll is one roll (even though it is two dice) then you are right.

There is no rule stating categories of dice. No rule states anything like, you get a 1D6 roll and a 3D6 roll. It will only ever say 4D6. 4D6 is just the number of 1D6 rolls you get.

Chronometron allows you to re-roll one dice. A 3D6 roll is three 1D6 rolls. It allows you to re-roll one of those.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Chronometron allows you to re-roll one dice. A 3D6 roll is three 1D6 rolls. It allows you to re-roll one of those.

It allows you to re-roll a d6 roll.
We know that a d6 is the same thing as 1d6.
So it allows you to re-roll a 1d6 roll.

A 3d6 roll is a 3d6 roll - which is separate and distinct from a 1d6 roll.
You still don't have explicit specific permission in Chrono to re-roll part of a 2 or 3d6 roll.

But a 2d6 roll is not 2 1d6 rolls.
2d6 = [2-12]
Two 1d6 = [1-6, 1-6]

Two completely different answers.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
2d6 is rolling 2 D6's. We came back to it before because I think someone reading this whole thread can agree.

If 2D6 is one roll and cannot ever be evaluated by individual dice, then you are right.

If 2D6 is two dice rolled, and one of those D6's can be re-rolled separately, then I am right.

Lets go over the wording of the Chronometron: "The HoE or his unit can re-roll any of his d6 rolls." d6 rolls. Not 2d6 rolls. This entire argument is pointless because it says d6 roll. Not 2d6 roll. Not part of a 3d6 roll. d6 roll. When you roll 2d6, how many dice do you roll? 2. You roll 2 dice in a 2d6 roll. Not one. Two.

Two dice rolled together. 2d6 roll.

One dice. d6 roll.

Two dice rolled at the same time is a 2d6 roll. One die rolled is a d6 roll. It doesn't matter how many dice a 2d6 roll is comprised of, the fact is you rolled 2 dice to begin with, which makes it a 2d6 roll. The Chrono says you ma re-roll a d6 roll. Something you rolled only one die for in the first place. You cannot re-roll part of a 2d6 roll because you rolled more than one dice at once. Because you rolled more than once die to begin with.

Luide wrote:

Katfish! wrote:again, can anyone point out in the entirety of warhammer any way or place where you can reroll a single die in a multi-D6 roll?

I personally think that the Chronometron entry IS specific enough. However, I'd like to see a previous example with which to establish a baseline level of specificity.

I just did it, at previous page.

Luide wrote:
So again, here's example what "specific" means:
Brb pg 40,
Sweeping advance
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"

Now, lets take example of rule saving one from Sweeping advance,
ATSKNF, page 21 GK codex
"If Grey Knights are caught by a sweeping advance, they are not destroyed and will instead continue to fight normally..."

When rulebook says rule A can only be overruled if specified, it means that rule B MUST specifically (as per definition of the word) refer to rule A. And because Chronometron doesn't have any language that mentions rolling more than 1 d6, you're not allowed to use it to re-roll portion of 2d6 or 3d6 roll (as per pg 2).

That is not an example of being allowed to reroll a d6 in a multid6 scenario. I want to see what meets the standard for that. Or did you just want to tell me I'm wrong before reading my whole post?

kirsanth wrote:

Happyjew wrote:OMG, rigeld, I said the exact same thing about the wording!

To be fair, most of us have done that in this thread at some point.

It is kind of hard not to with the actual answer in black and white.

At least 5 times here.... when someone wont read whats in front of them, despite numerous explanations, and instead comes up with an entirely opposite conclusion, theyre either trolling or have such a different understanding of how you parse a sentence that you're never going to agree.

rigeld2 wrote:

BRB pg2 wrote:
If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you
must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of
them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll
explicitly specifies otherwise.

You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one
go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6, and so on

Interestingly, RAW, if there's a 4d6 roll you can re-roll only one die because it doesn't say "etc." or anything like that. Heh.

a d6 roll is explicitly different from a 2d6 roll. A d6 roll is a specific thing, a 2d6 roll is another specific thing.

I would think that "and so on" and "etc" are equivalent, and the inclusion of "and so on" indicates that the series progresses infinitely in the same manner. Right?

Back on topic: Dave, just because there doesn't exist a rule which states "You may reroll one die of a multiple-dice roll" doesn't mean that isn't the requirement; it might just mean that there aren't any rules which meet the requirement. You can't use that as evidence one way or another. A lack of precedent is not the same as a precedent for the opposite interpretation.

What has been done, however, is to present parallel precedent; precedent for something which is phrased in exactly the same way, and has the same effects. Sweeping Advance says that you have to "specifically" state that a rule works to counter it in order to counter it. ATSKNF, the only rule which currently counters Sweeping Advance, mentions the rule by name and tells the player exactly what occurs instead. It is reasonable to conclude that this is the standard of specificity which 40k uses.

The rule we're discussing has exactly the same wording as Sweeping Advance; a rule which counters it must "specifically" state that it does so. The precedent of Sweeping Advance indicates that in order to counter a rule written in this manner, a special rule must mention the rule in question by name, and tell the player what effect replaces the usual effect. The Chronometron does not meet that standard of specificity.

Now; this argument is NOT a logical necessity. It doesn't present a 100% airtight, tautological case; rather it's an argument by precedent. Since there are reasonably legitimate points on both sides, in the absence of clarification, we look to see how this issue has been resolved somewhere else in the ruleset; and we find that in a very similar case, it was resolved in one particular way. It is reasonable, then, to conclude that this parallel case should be resolved in the same way.

The argument you are making counters precedent; that is, exactly the same basic reasoning could be used to argue that ATSKNF would ignore Sweeping Advance even if the part of the rule which begins "If caught in a sweeping advance" did not exist. That isn't true; and since it isn't true in that parallel case, it's reasonable to conclude by analogy that it also isn't true in this case.


Your argument will have much more validity if at some time in a future a special rule is created which does not specifically mention Sweeping Advance, but is later FAQed to counteract it. At that point, you could legitimately claim that precedent on this issue goes both ways. Since no such rule exists, however, there's only one precedent for what is meant by "specifically" counteracting a rule; and the Chronometron does not meet that standard.

Katfish! wrote:

Luide wrote:

Katfish! wrote:again, can anyone point out in the entirety of warhammer any way or place where you can reroll a single die in a multi-D6 roll?

I personally think that the Chronometron entry IS specific enough. However, I'd like to see a previous example with which to establish a baseline level of specificity.

I just did it, at previous page.

Luide wrote:
So again, here's example what "specific" means:
Brb pg 40,
Sweeping advance
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage"

Now, lets take example of rule saving one from Sweeping advance,
ATSKNF, page 21 GK codex
"If Grey Knights are caught by a sweeping advance, they are not destroyed and will instead continue to fight normally..."

When rulebook says rule A can only be overruled if specified, it means that rule B MUST specifically (as per definition of the word) refer to rule A. And because Chronometron doesn't have any language that mentions rolling more than 1 d6, you're not allowed to use it to re-roll portion of 2d6 or 3d6 roll (as per pg 2).

That is not an example of being allowed to reroll a d6 in a multid6 scenario. I want to see what meets the standard for that. Or did you just want to tell me I'm wrong before reading my whole post?

Because I'm pretty sure there isn't a special rule or wargear that allows re-rolling single die from 2d6/3d6 roll. I'm also pretty sure that if such existed, it would have been found already and presented in this thread.

But it doesn't matter, we just need to look for other sources to see what specific means (=establishing baseline) in the context of 40k rules. First being dictionary, second being any SM codex. Both being (unsurprisingly) in agreement.

But do you really still think, considering all evidence to contrary (ATSKNF and SA for example) that Chronometron explicitly allows re-rolling single die from 2d6/3d6 roll?
It can be read to give implicit permission, with that I agree. But pg2 requires explicit permission, which is definitely not given.


.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

BRB wrote:
You may also be told to roll a number of dice in one
go, which is written as 2D6, 3D6, and so on

Interestingly, RAW, if there's a 4d6 roll you can re-roll only one die because it doesn't say "etc." or anything like that. Heh.

I would think that "and so on" and "etc" are equivalent, and the inclusion of "and so on" indicates that the series progresses infinitely in the same manner. Right?

Yeah. No idea what I was thinking. Apologies.

BeRzErKeR wrote: there doesn't exist a rule which states "You may reroll one die of a multiple-dice roll"

I am not sure this is true. I know there at least was a rule like that. Maybe its Fantasy.

Or Sisters of Battle. Never did buy those mags. . .

Luide wrote:

Because I'm pretty sure there isn't a special rule or wargear that allows re-rolling single die from 2d6/3d6 roll. I'm also pretty sure that if such existed, it would have been found already and presented in this thread.

But it doesn't matter, we just need to look for other sources to see what specific means (=establishing baseline) in the context of 40k rules. First being dictionary, second being any SM codex. Both being (unsurprisingly) in agreement.

But do you really still think, considering all evidence to contrary (ATSKNF and SA for example) that Chronometron explicitly allows re-rolling single die from 2d6/3d6 roll?
It can be read to give implicit permission, with that I agree. But pg2 requires explicit permission, which is definitely not given.

.
I ask this only because I feel that the standard of "specificity" in this thread seems to be rather high. If this is the only rule in 40k that says you may re-roll a d6, and not re-roll an entire roll (such as Corrubulo and similar rules) then that itself is telling. I think that, personally, this argument has become very RAWish and doesn't consider the wider context. To me, The rules intent (OH GOD I REFERENCED INTENT) was to allow a single die to be re-rolled. Any die that was rolled by the unit, pick one up and re-roll it per phase. I honestly don't get why saying i can re-roll a D6 doesn't mean I can re-roll a dice. (I SAW YOUR POST DON'T QUOTE THE SAME THING AGAIN). I understand that a multiD6 roll has a result that is added together. but by re-rolling a D6 it just changes the number contributed by that dice. Chronometron says i can re-roll a D6, A multiD6 roll is multiple added together. That to me is specific enough. (I HAVE READ THIS THREAD I DONT NEED 4 PEOPLE RESTATING THE THREAD BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH MY INTERPRETATION OF SPECIFIC) I understand and can follow the logic of everyone's thoughts here, I just personally disagree.

As for there not being any example in 40k of a rule allowing what I said to happen, I agree i can't think of one. However, what constitutes being sufficient? I think everyone is seeking the best wording, which is clearly not going to be there in a GW product. That's all I'm saying

Happyjew wrote:If Chronometron said "you may re-roll a d6" you would have an argument. It doesn't. It says "you may re-roll a single d6 roll.

Not quite right. It says, "...can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase...". I'm being a bit nitpicky here since you are putting such emphasis on the wording.

Happyjew wrote: A very very important distinction. I pointed out examples where the rules specify to make a D6 roll. I pointed out examples where the rule specifies to make a 2D6 roll. However, you are clinging to your interpretation that a D6 roll is the same as a 2d6 roll (BTW, a 2xd6 roll would give you a result of [2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12] which is NOT the same as 2d6.).

I'm with ND on this one, though for different reasons. Let's say I've got a Tremor Cryptek and a Chrono Cryptek in the same unit, along with 8 Warriors. On my shooting phase everybody shoots (except the Aeonstave of course). The tremorstave is a blast weapon so you follow the rules for that (2d6-BS; assume the scatter die was not a hit). So when all is said and done (and here is why I think the Chrono works regardless of the type of roll) the unit has rolled 10 d6's. The Chrono doesn't care what type of roll you made (leadership, scatter, deep strike, etc.), it only cares that a D6 has been 'rolled' on the table. In this scenario the Chrono lets me pick up any one of those D6 dice rolls and re-roll it.

-Yad

Except its there in ATSKNF. We know what specific means in 40k terms.

The intent is to reroll a D6 roll, which we know they intend (because they wrote this, very specifically) to be different to a 2D6+ roll.

Yad - except that a 2D6 roll is different to a D6 roll. The rules state they are different things. That is what the rules allow.

Like ND, you are wrong on thsi one.

Here it is:

p. 26 of Eldar Codex:

Runes of Witnessing:
"A Farseer with runes of witnessing rolls 3D6 and discards the highest roll when taking a Psychic test. You must use the lowest two rolls."

There you have it. 3D6 = three rolls.

If you could use Chronometron and this, it would allow you to "re-roll one D6 roll." Therefore Chronometron CAN be used to re-roll a single D6 of a leadership or any other multi dice roll.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Here it is:

p. 26 of Eldar Codex:

Runes of Witnessing:
"A Farseer with runes of witnessing rolls 3D6 and discards the highest roll when taking a Psychic test. You must use the lowest two rolls."

There you have it. 3D6 = three rolls.

A hit! A palpable hit!

However, I must point out that the point that 3d6 = 3 rolls still doesn't negate the point about specificity. The only precedent I know of on that point (Sweeping Advance) indicates that a higher degree of specificity is required in order to override a rule which calls for something "specific" than the Chronometron rule provides.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Here it is:

p. 26 of Eldar Codex:

Runes of Witnessing:
"A Farseer with runes of witnessing rolls 3D6 and discards the highest roll when taking a Psychic test. You must use the lowest two rolls."

There you have it. 3D6 = three rolls.

If you could use Chronometron and this, it would allow you to "re-roll one D6 roll." Therefore Chronometron CAN be used to re-roll a single D6 of a leadership or any other multi dice roll.

Except it doesn't say that anymore.

Eldar FAQ wrote:Page 26 – Runes of Witnessing
Change the last two sentences to “A Farseer with runes
of witnessing must roll an extra dice when taking
Psychic tests and discards the highest result.