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Nemesor Dave wrote:Here it is:

p. 26 of Eldar Codex:

Runes of Witnessing:
"A Farseer with runes of witnessing rolls 3D6 and discards the highest roll when taking a Psychic test. You must use the lowest two rolls."

There you have it. 3D6 = three rolls.

If you could use Chronometron and this, it would allow you to "re-roll one D6 roll." Therefore Chronometron CAN be used to re-roll a single D6 of a leadership or any other multi dice roll.

Did you just cherry-pick the verbage from a late edition codex and apply it to your entire argument (and consequently all of 40K)?

I haven't been following this thread at all, but I hope that's not your strongest defense throughout.



Edit: Yeah. . .see below.

Yad wrote:"...can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase..."

My point stands, it says you can re-roll one of his D6 rolls. 2D6 is not a D6 roll.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Here it is:

p. 26 of Eldar Codex:

Runes of Witnessing:
"A Farseer with runes of witnessing rolls 3D6 and discards the highest roll when taking a Psychic test. You must use the lowest two rolls."

That is not correct.

Eldar Update Version 1.1 wrote:“A Farseer with runes
of witnessing must roll an extra dice when taking
Psychic tests and discards the highest result."

puma713 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Here it is:

p. 26 of Eldar Codex:

Runes of Witnessing:
"A Farseer with runes of witnessing rolls 3D6 and discards the highest roll when taking a Psychic test. You must use the lowest two rolls."

There you have it. 3D6 = three rolls.

If you could use Chronometron and this, it would allow you to "re-roll one D6 roll." Therefore Chronometron CAN be used to re-roll a single D6 of a leadership or any other multi dice roll.

Did you just cherry-pick the verbage from a late edition codex and apply it to your entire argument (and consequently all of 40K)?

I haven't been following this thread at all, but I hope that's not your strongest defense throughout.

There literally is nothing else offered by anyone that is more clear. It was starting to look like the Necron Codex was the only example of a rule working this way in all of 40k. That being said, the Eldar Codex is just as valid as any other rule set.

Read "The Far-Seeing Eye" for rules that read like Nemesor Dave thinks this one does.

"Corbullo allows you a single re-roll once per game. This can be any roll you have made, such as for an armour save, a Leadership test, a To Hit roll, a scatter roll, or even to seize the Initiative."

That is explicit.

kirsanth wrote:That is explicit.

But is it specific?!?!?!

Nemesor Dave wrote:That being said, the Eldar Codex is just as valid as any other rule set.

See Happyjew's post above. The wording was changed.

puma713 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:That being said, the Eldar Codex is just as valid as any other rule set.

See Happyjew's post above. The wording was changed.

Mine too! But it was lost at the bottom of page 7 :(

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:That is explicit.

But is it specific?!?!?!

Yes, it is very specific that each of those listings is a single roll.

editing to add:
I really do recall a rule saying the other side of that (rule xxx saying that a single di[c]e was allowed to be re-roll out of a set), but am not finding it ATM.

Happyjew wrote:

That is not correct.

Eldar Update Version 1.1 wrote:“A Farseer with runes
of witnessing must roll an extra dice when taking
Psychic tests and discards the highest result."

Well, this clears up the rule that I was thinking of. It looks like GW made an effort to change any text that calls individual dice of a multi dice roll - "rolls".

So, I just got off of the phone with a GW customer service rep. While I know that they are not "canon" or whatever, they did tell me that a HoE w/ Chronometron may roll any d6 out of any roll (whether it was 1 d6 or Leadership test).

To support this I would encourage more of you to give customer service a call. This rule can now be considered another poorly worded rule in the new Necron codex.

In fact they made the same change with SitW and Runes of Warding.

McNinja wrote:So, I just got off of the phone with a GW customer service rep. While I know that they are not "canon" or whatever, they did tell me that a HoE w/ Chronometron may roll any d6 out of any roll (whether it was 1 d6 or Leadership test).

To support this I would encourage more of you to give customer service a call. This rule can now be considered another poorly worded rule in the new Necron codex.

No, not really.

I called GW service and they said the exact opposite thing. I then called the back and they hadnt even heard of the chronometron. On the 3rd time I called they claimed Necrons didnt exist as a valid army anymore, and on the 4th time forgot they were GW and tried to sell me car insurance.

Read the tenets of the forum you are posting in, and dont raise "I called GW and they said...." as a valid *anything* again

McNinja wrote:So, I just got off of the phone with a GW customer service rep. While I know that they are not "canon" or whatever, they did tell me that a HoE w/ Chronometron may roll any d6 out of any roll (whether it was 1 d6 or Leadership test).

To support this I would encourage more of you to give customer service a call. This rule can now be considered another poorly worded rule in the new Necron codex.

And I'm sure the shipping clerk you spoke to honestly believes this.



"A model with a chronometron can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase." Necron codex, pg. 85

It does not say he may re-roll a D6. It says he may re-roll one of his D6 rolls. These semantics are supremely important here.

Is a Leadership test a D6 roll? No. It is a 2D6 roll. Because again 2D6 =/= 2x D6 rolls.

It is like saying you may re-take one of your school exams. That does not mean that you may re-do only a single page of one of your exams; it means you may re-do the entire exam.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I called GW service and they said the exact opposite thing. I then called the back and they hadnt even heard of the chronometron. On the 3rd time I called they claimed Necrons didnt exist as a valid army anymore, and on the 4th time forgot they were GW and tried to sell me car insurance.

I don't laugh often in YMDC, but that made me lol.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

McNinja wrote:So, I just got off of the phone with a GW customer service rep. While I know that they are not "canon" or whatever, they did tell me that a HoE w/ Chronometron may roll any d6 out of any roll (whether it was 1 d6 or Leadership test).

To support this I would encourage more of you to give customer service a call. This rule can now be considered another poorly worded rule in the new Necron codex.

No, not really.

I called GW service and they said the exact opposite thing. I then called the back and they hadnt even heard of the chronometron. On the 3rd time I called they claimed Necrons didnt exist as a valid army anymore, and on the 4th time forgot they were GW and tried to sell me car insurance.

Read the tenets of the forum you are posting in, and dont raise "I called GW and they said...." as a valid *anything* again

interesting. I went up to the GW in the mall where I work and they did the same thing. Well, not the insurance thing. The whole "not having their rules together" thing. I apologize for the "I called gw and said" thing, I was delirious from being at work for too long.

I still stand behind.everything I've said thus far in this thread, regardless.

Version 1.2 of my FAQ is out, for those interested. I think there's some juicy bits in there that would make for great YMDC discussions like this one, but I'll let those interested decide which they think are the most fun.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/409141.page#3810547

azazel the cat wrote:You have $1 and want to buy a Twinkie, but Twinkies are sold in 2-packs and cost $2 per pack. Unless you can specifically find a single Twinkie, you have to pay for the 2-pack.
Since you cannot afford the 2-pack, you cannot have a Twinkie.

I like the twinkie analogy. It does re-raise one of my original questions about the chronometron though. If I have 2 in a unit, can I re-roll a leadership test?

azazel the cat wrote:What you must remember is that 40k operates under a permissive ruleset. This means that you may not perform any action unless specified. That is, the answer to ever single question about "can I...?" is "no", unless there is a specific permission to do so.

This will not likely go to 30 pages, but it has been a reasonably long discussion. Thus, some people might have forgotten that the actual chronometron rules says "...can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase...". It was only after some investigation that we determined that d6 roll = 1d6. I stand by my earlier statement.

If you had a group of children watch a game of 40k and explained it in simple terms as you played, then read them the chronometron rule, then rolled a leadership test, then asked the children if you could re-roll one of the two dice, I think a majority would say you can. This hypothetical proves nothing, but I hope it helps some realize that the PRO position is arguing in good faith. Currently, I think the NO position is correct (RAW) while the PRO position is correct (RAI).

azazel the cat wrote:"A model with a chronometron can re-roll one of his D6 rolls each phase." Necron codex, pg. 85

This plus the errata'd language on page 26 of the eldar codex is the strongest NO arguement I have seen. The lack of specificity did not sway me for reasons that I explained earlier. This quote however is fairly tight. A d6 might be a die sometimes and a 1d6 roll other times, but a 'd6 roll' has much less wiggle room IMO.

McNinja wrote:So, I just got off of the phone with a GW customer service rep. While I know that they are not "canon" or whatever, they did tell me that a HoE w/ Chronometron may roll any d6 out of any roll (whether it was 1 d6 or Leadership test).

To support this I would encourage more of you to give customer service a call. This rule can now be considered another poorly worded rule in the new Necron codex.

I called them about this a long time ago. I received the same answer your did, with the same explanation. (Maybe the same CSR) I didn't even try to post that here. I have come to think of these threads as something similar to a 'guess the number game'

Sometimes you see a contest or promotion that involves guessing the number of somethings in the container. In the US it is often jelly beans in a glass jar, but the concept is probably fairly global. You look at the jar, guess your best guess, write it down on a piece of paper with your contact information. If you are the closest, you win! Often times you win the jar, sometime you win a cash prize or a trip, etc. It's really just a way to get people's contact information and promote whatever it is the organization wants to promote. But it's a fun game where it is helpful to be both smart and lucky - similar to 40k. The more troublesome YMDC threads here are like the guess the number game, and calling GW Customer Service is like cheating (but in an ethical way). It's like opening the jar and actually counting the jellybeans. You get a definitive answer, but you will likely still not be able to convince anyone else.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I called GW service and they said the exact opposite thing. I then called the back and they hadnt even heard of the chronometron. On the 3rd time I called they claimed Necrons didnt exist as a valid army anymore, and on the 4th time forgot they were GW and tried to sell me car insurance.

Read the tenets of the forum you are posting in, and dont raise "I called GW and they said...." as a valid *anything* again

@nosferatu - your posts break the tenets of the forum on a near daily basis. Please don't take that as a criticism. Your participation makes me smile more often than it makes me frown. This was really funny though, thank you for participating.

foolishmortal wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:You have $1 and want to buy a Twinkie, but Twinkies are sold in 2-packs and cost $2 per pack. Unless you can specifically find a single Twinkie, you have to pay for the 2-pack.
Since you cannot afford the 2-pack, you cannot have a Twinkie.

I like the twinkie analogy. It does re-raise one of my original questions about the chronometron though. If I have 2 in a unit, can I re-roll a leadership test?

Is a 2d6 roll 2 1d6 rolls?
(hint: no)

rigeld2 wrote:Is a 2d6 roll 2 1d6 rolls?
(hint: no)

Yes, yes, I know. I hit multi-quote and was working my way through what I wanted to respond to. You [begin silly sarcasm] obviously [end silly sarcasm] did not read my whole post.

foolishmortal wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Is a 2d6 roll 2 1d6 rolls?
(hint: no)

Yes, yes, I know. I hit multi-quote and was working my way through what I wanted to respond to. You [begin silly sarcasm] obviously [end silly sarcasm] did not read my whole post.

I also disagree that the PRO position is RAI - GW has gone out of their way to leave clues that they don't intend this to work - mostly by errating things that would help the PRO position and removing the helpful phrase.

It's not intended, and it's not how the rules read - you can only re-roll a d6 roll. This does not include a leadership test, a scatter roll, some_other_roll_I_don't_feel_like_thinking_about_but_uses_multiple_d6 roll... not even part of those rolls.

rigeld2 wrote:I also disagree that the PRO position is RAI - GW has gone out of their way to leave clues that they don't intend this to work - mostly by errating things that would help the PRO position and removing the helpful phrase.

My reasons for seeing this as RAI are not particularly relevant to this discussion. I would not expect them to persuade others on YMDC and I will not reiterate them here.

I disagree with the idea that GW has "gone out of their way to leave clues" about this topic. You are giving them way more credit than is likely their due. You gave a movie reference earlier, I will respond with one now. GW does not have the cunning deviousness of the founding fathers in the National Treasure movies. We are not Nicolas Cage and there is no treasure map in invisible ink on the back of the original Rogue Trader rules.

foolishmortal wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:I also disagree that the PRO position is RAI - GW has gone out of their way to leave clues that they don't intend this to work - mostly by errating things that would help the PRO position and removing the helpful phrase.

My reasons for seeing this as RAI are not particularly relevant to this discussion. I would not expect them to persuade others on YMDC and I will not reiterate them here.

I disagree with the idea that GW has "gone out of their way to leave clues" about this topic. You are giving them way more credit than is likely their due. You gave a movie reference earlier, I will respond with one now. GW does not have the cunning deviousness of the founding fathers in the National Treasure movies. We are not Nicolas Cage and there is no treasure map in invisible ink on the back of the original Rogue Trader rules.

Well, not unless you have the special glasses to view it...

I wanted to throw this into the mix as well. I realize that the following is a bit unorthodox, but I'll explain why I'm even bringing it up below, and it's not just to create a ridiculous argument as it will first appear.

The term "one of his d6 rolls" can also be read as the set of all types of d6 rolls including 2d6, 3d6, xd6, etc. Especially if the statement is made in a "passing" manner.

Example:

"It let's you re-roll one of your d6 rolls".

This could be translated as:

"one of your 1d6 rolls"
OR
"one of your rolls which involve d6s"

Which could thereby mean that you can re-roll the entire 2d6 roll.

The exact quote is: "can re-roll one of his d6 rolls" which could also imply the collective set of any xd6 roll.

The reason I'm bringing this up is because i really think the intent of the Chronometron is to allow you to re-roll a result, not just taking the strict meaning of a die. I just don't think the author of the book put enough effort into the wording to fully express that "oh yeah! I should have also said your 2d6 rolls!". He's just made the statement in a "passing" manner. I won't make this argument because intent is impossible to prove, but we all also know that GW doesn't always spell everything out in a technical way.

What I would really like to see here is a ruling go into the INAT on this issue. I see that the issue about 1d6 <> 2d6 is pretty cut and dry, but I also see that the words in this case could also imply a 3rd, yet unconsidered scenario here, in that the Chronometron may also be giving your permission to re-roll the entire 2d6 roll as "one of [your] d6 rolls".

ngilstrap wrote:This could be translated as:

"one of your 1d6 rolls"
OR
"one of your rolls which involve d6s"

No, it can't. 1d6 and d6 are equivilant in the rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

ngilstrap wrote:This could be translated as:

"one of your 1d6 rolls"
OR
"one of your rolls which involve d6s"

No, it can't. 1d6 and d6 are equivilant in the rules.

This wasn't relevant to what I am stating. I'm not stating d6 <> 1d6.

Except that since 1d6 = d6, the Chrono only re-rolls a 1d6 roll and you can't construe that to mean part of a 2d6 roll.

rigeld2 wrote:Except that since 1d6 = d6, the Chrono only re-rolls a 1d6 roll....

As I stated, the Chronometron allows you to "re-roll one of [your] d6 rolls". It certainly can be interpreted that the term "d6 rolls" in this case refers to a set of all types of d6 rolls. The analogy here would be using the word "coke" to refer to all types of soft drinks or "car' to refer to all types of automobiles. This is not a case of rules but a case of language interpretation.

Further: "the Chrono only re-rolls a 1d6 roll" is one of the interpretations of the above, not the necessary conclusion. (Rather, all that this statement is is restating the question which is irrelevant).

rigeld2 wrote:
...and you can't construe that to mean part of a 2d6 roll.

This is irrelevant because I never stated this nor implied it.

ngilstrap wrote:As I stated, the Chronometron allows you to "re-roll one of [your] d6 rolls". It certainly can be interpreted that the term "d6 rolls" in this case refers to a set of all types of d6 rolls.

It can be, but it is incorrect to do so.

kirsanth wrote:

ngilstrap wrote:As I stated, the Chronometron allows you to "re-roll one of [your] d6 rolls". It certainly can be interpreted that the term "d6 rolls" in this case refers to a set of all types of d6 rolls.

It can be, but it is incorrect to do so.

Great. Now, why would it be incorrect to do so?

Read the thread.

Your position is not a new one. It has been addressed.