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 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Astra Militarum: We have trouble with commitment and much prefer long distance relationships.
Don't come over here. I don't want you touching me. Stop it.

Made my day

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
He probably would too... He seems to think that because melee isn't as good as it was before that suddenly it's worthless now.

It's worthless when all your units die before they can assault. And GH die just like crappy old tac marins.

If you only field 10-20 bodies and forgot to use transports, yeah.

My Templars do quite well by putting around 30 pairs of boots on the ground per 1500 points, and all take transports (or bikes, or jump packs). T2 assault is almost always guaranteed unless I'm nearly tabled.

I've lost 53 FNP marines to Eldar in one turn before. That was with the old FNP bubble. I can't see how 30 is going to cut it.

It's Eldar. Everyone gets tabled by them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
There's a lot more to it than that. Sacrificial units really hose up assault as well. Remember that the opponent chooses what gets assaulted but a shooting army always gets to choose the target.

There are also many battlefields that legitimately don't have LOS blocking terrain. Think eastern front in WWII. And said terrain serves to slow down assault units as well. It's far from a 100% win.

Have you heard of our Lord and Saviour, Av14 Assault Vehicles?

 Selym wrote:
It's Eldar. Everyone gets tabled by them.

Well I'm a bad Necrons player, and I don't get tabled.
I would if the game went 8 or 9 turns, but most of my forces are down to 10-15% strength by the end of the game.
I've never won though.

Space Marines, specifically Imperial fists are my faction of choice atm. They have a very nice new codex with lots of nice new toys, however the issue i feel is most wrong with SM in general, and to an extent most other factions, is that killing power in most armies has increased considerably, but surviveability has not. on paper the 3+ save is good. but with the number of high volume high strength shots, or AP2/3 shooting that is being thrown around it is in practice, fairly useless. Cover is also generally less useful to marines than it is to others

Likewise, while SM's have a lot of nice toys to fall back on, the troops choices still remain fairly weak. Tactical Marines in particular are burdened by the fact they have a very rigid method of constructing units being able, at most, to take 1 special, 1 heavy and 1 combi weapon. Combat squading alleviates this somewhat, but is still far from ideal, and is in part the reason why bike squads are so prevalent, they can be taken as troops, and have better access to special weapons.

finally, stormravens and stormtalons. its almost as if GW wants us to go to 3rd party companies or just build our own. they are some of the most hideous models i've seen. surpassed only by the Taurox in sheer stupidity of design. both were probably in the STC 'reject' section, and used to teach engineering students how not to design things.

chaos

real lack of synergy

far too large of a gap between space marine and chaos wargear options( yeah i get it chaos has old stuff and special weapons are rare in the warp) guess id like to see a bit of balance there

Just real lack of selection they are chaos SPACE MARINES, soo i can have an ancient land raider but a drop pod(not counting the dread) oh no they don't have those..what was more common?!

just the general sense i'm paying grey goose prices and getting crystal palace. Chaos should be damn near neck to neck with normal marines(yeah i know csm has an older codex)

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
He probably would too... He seems to think that because melee isn't as good as it was before that suddenly it's worthless now.

It's worthless when all your units die before they can assault. And GH die just like crappy old tac marins.

If you only field 10-20 bodies and forgot to use transports, yeah.

My Templars do quite well by putting around 30 pairs of boots on the ground per 1500 points, and all take transports (or bikes, or jump packs). T2 assault is almost always guaranteed unless I'm nearly tabled.

I've lost 53 FNP marines to Eldar in one turn before. That was with the old FNP bubble. I can't see how 30 is going to cut it.

It's Eldar. Everyone gets tabled by them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
There's a lot more to it than that. Sacrificial units really hose up assault as well. Remember that the opponent chooses what gets assaulted but a shooting army always gets to choose the target.

There are also many battlefields that legitimately don't have LOS blocking terrain. Think eastern front in WWII. And said terrain serves to slow down assault units as well. It's far from a 100% win.

Have you heard of our Lord and Saviour, Av14 Assault Vehicles?

SM have access to 1 AV 14 assault vehicle and it is universally considered to be TERRIBLE. Im sure in your meta you don't have to worry about Melta/Armorbane/Eldar but everywhere else those vehicles go *Poof to quickly to be worth the points investment. Hell thats why I have a Morkananut and Deff dreads collecting dust for this edition. TO easy to pop them.

"SM have access to 1 AV 14 assault vehicle and it is universally considered to be TERRIBLE"

They actually have three...

SGTPozy wrote:
"SM have access to 1 AV 14 assault vehicle and it is universally considered to be TERRIBLE"

They actually have three...

No, they have 1. They have 3 variants of it, but it is still ONE.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
"SM have access to 1 AV 14 assault vehicle and it is universally considered to be TERRIBLE"

They actually have three...

No, they have 1. They have 3 variants of it, but it is still ONE.

No, they have three. There's one type but there are three units which are av14 and assault.

Are you saying that the SM Codex only has one infantry choice since everything's a Space Marine?

 Ghazkuul wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
"SM have access to 1 AV 14 assault vehicle and it is universally considered to be TERRIBLE"

They actually have three...

No, they have 1. They have 3 variants of it, but it is still ONE.

Are you sure you're using it right? It's universally inefficient if you're trying to shoot stuff, but it's quite good.

Unless you're this guy:

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
We have a house rule on Land Raiders;
-Front 14
-Side 12 if it's Crusader or Redeemer
-Side 13 of it's a standard.
-Rear 12 no matter what.

SGTPozy wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
"SM have access to 1 AV 14 assault vehicle and it is universally considered to be TERRIBLE"

They actually have three...

No, they have 1. They have 3 variants of it, but it is still ONE.

No, they have three. There's one type but there are three units which are av14 and assault.

Are you saying that the SM Codex only has one infantry choice since everything's a Space Marine?

Your right my bad. You also have 3 WK models to because you know, they aren't the exact same thing with different load outs. Also there's a bunch of different Killa Kanz. Each one is its own distinct model that is completely different and not considered to be just a "Killa Kan".

Stop arguing a stupid point.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
"SM have access to 1 AV 14 assault vehicle and it is universally considered to be TERRIBLE"

They actually have three...

No, they have 1. They have 3 variants of it, but it is still ONE.

No, they have three. There's one type but there are three units which are av14 and assault.

Are you saying that the SM Codex only has one infantry choice since everything's a Space Marine?

You're right my bad. You also have 3 WK models to because you know, they aren't the exact same thing with different load outs. Also there's a bunch of different Killa Kanz. Each one is its own distinct model that is completely different and not considered to be just a "Killa Kan".

Stop arguing a stupid point.

How many unit slots do Kills Kand take up? One.
How many do Land Raider type vehicles take up? Three.

The Land Raiders differ on more than just a weapon swap, they also have different transport capacities too.

Like I've already said, if all Land Raider types are one unit then all Space Marine types are one unit as they only have different equipment.

"Are you sure you're using it right?"

Lists are now equipped to take out super heavy vehicles. Land Raiders are now very much victims of that phenomenon.

Not to mention overcosted. You pay a lot of points to get to assault one unit. That your opponent gets to choose. Not so good, imo.

Land Raiders also have a tendency to immobilize themselves crossing any kind of terrain which is a horrible flaw as well.

Also don't forget the cardinal rule of assault units being one shot johnnies as they can't consolidate into a new combat. That makes your life cycle the following: drive across the board in a 250 point ride. Get within 18" or so, move, pile out, assault. Win combat. Get shot off the table on the next turn by the remainder of your opponent's list. That's completely not worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All three land raiders are equally terrible. Happy now?

SGTPozy wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
"SM have access to 1 AV 14 assault vehicle and it is universally considered to be TERRIBLE"

They actually have three...

No, they have 1. They have 3 variants of it, but it is still ONE.

No, they have three. There's one type but there are three units which are av14 and assault.

Are you saying that the SM Codex only has one infantry choice since everything's a Space Marine?

You're right my bad. You also have 3 WK models to because you know, they aren't the exact same thing with different load outs. Also there's a bunch of different Killa Kanz. Each one is its own distinct model that is completely different and not considered to be just a "Killa Kan".

Stop arguing a stupid point.

How many unit slots do Kills Kand take up? One.
How many do Land Raider type vehicles take up? Three.

The Land Raiders differ on more than just a weapon swap, they also have different transport capacities too.

Like I've already said, if all Land Raider types are one unit then all Space Marine types are one unit as they only have different equipment.

Ok then Battlewagons have a bunch of different models to then, because weapons load outs change AND transport capacity. But wait, They don't have their own variation name because that would be dumb and useless. SM have different names for the same fething vehicle to add "Fluff" and slight variation to the different chapters

Ohh, and Landraiders take up 1 slot in the FOC, Killa Kanz take up 1 slot. if you take 2 Landraiders thats 2 units so they take up 2 FOC slots, and If I take 2-12 Killa Kanz they can fill 2 Slots, whats your point?

What an utterly stupid argument I see this Ghazkuul guy in... again.

My factions are IG and CSM and the problems with those books are well documented not much point rehashing them.

MarsNZ wrote:
What an utterly stupid argument I see this Ghazkuul guy in... again.

My factions are IG and CSM and the problems with those books are well documented not much point rehashing them.

so then your entire post was to insult me and walk away. Really polite dude.

Rule One is Be Polite. The only proper response to rudeness is to report the offending post to the moderators. Please continue on-topic. Thanks!

I watched a CSM guy, running Ahriman and tzeentch marines and chaos demon allies (tzeentch and no summoning) wipe an all wraith list with two Wraithknights last night.

You just gotta play smart.

He basically just Psychic Shrieked his Eldar down.

It was fluffy as feth and he smoked them.

^That's actually interesting, I've heard a lot about Chaos Space Marines being potentially strong, but not without sacrificing fluff before.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
^That's actually interesting, I've heard a lot about Chaos Space Marines being potentially strong, but not without sacrificing fluff before.

CSM's are simply extremely shoehorned right now, with the added drawbacks of having among the game's worst Shooting phases, coupled with a serious lack of toys due to the gakky & old as feth model line... There's some decent things you can pull, if as mentioned above, you don't mind throwing the background out the window.

Basically, you can boil the book down to;
1. Top contenders/auto-includes: AoBF Jugger Lord, Ahriman, non-marked Sorcs w/Spell Familiar, Spawn, MSU Bikers w/MoN, min/maxed Plaguemarines, Termiecide units w/Combi-Plasmas, MoN/MoT Oblits, Maulerfiends.

2. Decent/passable: Havoc launcher Rhinos, Autocannon Havocs, min sized 1kSons (only if using Ahriman), min/maxed Raptors w/Meltas, Cultists.

3. Only use for fluff/fun: Everything else!!


Basically, the army gets better the more you stick to extreme MSU tactics AND using at least 2 CAD's in order to maximise your Fast Attack slots, which overall are the only thing that's saving the codex from being entirely shelved nowadays!

That's basically what it sounded like. The IG guy who got me into the game also plays Nurgle-themed CSM and he's been thoroughly pissed off about the enforced un-fluffiness (he singled out how he heard giving his Plague Marines the Mark of Slaanesh would make them better but he didn't want to do that since that makes absolutely no sense from a fluff perspective, not sure if that's actually a valid strategy or not, that's just what he told me).

Plague Marines don't have the option to take alternate marks.

And a unit cannot have two or more marks. Unless they're Abaddon.

Alright then, that makes sense. Guess either I was remembering wrong or he got misled.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
^That's actually interesting, I've heard a lot about Chaos Space Marines being potentially strong, but not without sacrificing fluff before.

CSM's are simply extremely shoehorned right now, with the added drawbacks of having among the game's worst Shooting phases, coupled with a serious lack of toys due to the gakky & old as feth model line... There's some decent things you can pull, if as mentioned above, you don't mind throwing the background out the window.

Basically, you can boil the book down to;
1. Top contenders/auto-includes: AoBF Jugger Lord, Ahriman, non-marked Sorcs w/Spell Familiar, Spawn, MSU Bikers w/MoN, min/maxed Plaguemarines, Termiecide units w/Combi-Plasmas, MoN/MoT Oblits, Maulerfiends.

2. Decent/passable: Havoc launcher Rhinos, Autocannon Havocs, min sized 1kSons (only if using Ahriman), min/maxed Raptors w/Meltas, Cultists.

3. Only use for fluff/fun: Everything else!!


Basically, the army gets better the more you stick to extreme MSU tactics AND using at least 2 CAD's in order to maximise your Fast Attack slots, which overall are the only thing that's saving the codex from being entirely shelved nowadays!

I would add BaleDrakes to #1 there. Maybe they got nerfed by a FAQ, but they're still awesome!

The CSM guy I mentioned above who used 1000 sons Ahriman and Tzeentch demons also had two bale drakes and the drakes were taken down easily with snap firing wraith guard/knights but he still got smoked because psychic shriek is bad ass