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Thats good and a little disappointing at the same time - it's going to be easier to convert 40k marines into 30k marines, but i liked that little feature - it gave a bit of depth i thought.

Still, a few more of my old marines just became useable - silver lining on the mushroom cloud and all that.

Yeah, I thought he 'Palatine Aquila' stuff was a really simple move by FW to preserve the old fluff and expand the model range nicely.

The Emperor's Children had the right to wear the Palatine Aquila on their chest.

So, any winged skulls, winged drops, winged wolf heads or swords, are all acceptable, and would work well as an 'artisan' chest plate for any earlier armour mark. Plus, everyone has the right to wear a palatine aquila on the rest of their armour or on banners and stuff - just not on the chest.

I'm basically a complete beginner again in warhammer, just started back a month ago, I picked up the boxed games for Aos, 40k and after looking at this forums/thread the last few days decided to get BaC too, and expand from there.

I didn't know anything about HH game/models until I noticed the BaC box set on the GW site, then found this forum./ thread which has been quiet helpful at parts

I used to collect dark angels before the millennium so sticking with them and making a force for 30k and 40k. I'm planning on using some 30k models in my 40k army where possible (whether its usable with its own 40k rules or just “count as”) But not too much, mainly to add a little character to the 40k force, plus the 30k models are all new and shiny to me and cool

On the flip side, I'm not going to use 40k guys in 30k, or at least not without jazzing it up appropriately. But part of the fun of building an army is trying to make it unique in some way, so I don't want to just buy FW stuff and paint it up and stick it on the table, same as the 40k force I would like to personalise it a little.

I have a few fairly simple conversions in mind for my 30k army(don't want to go too mad as its basically my first army) But I have a couple questions I'd like to put past you:

*Is it kosher to mix different Mk armoured squads in you're army?
As in a Mk II Tactical Squad, a Mk III devastator squad, MkIV Assault squad? Or do people try and stick to one Mk armour throughout their army?

*How about mixing armour types on the same individual model?
A tactical marine in Mk II torso with Mk III shoulder pads and Mk IV backpack?Not planning on this but not sure if its discouraged?
Is this a sign of Heresy in itself? Will the emperor dispatch his Inquisitor fashion police to my hippy free loving poncho wearing planet? :(

*I'm planning on adding a non GW/FW helmets to my dark angels and convert them with wings on each side, and also I was thinking of using these jump-packs on my assault squad. How do you think these would go down with rivet counters?
http://maxmini.eu/conversion-bits/head-swaps/steam-knights-heads-bits
http://maxmini.eu/conversion-bits/torsos-and-arms/silver-wing-jump-packs-bits

I emailed the company asking if they could send a particular helmet style instead of random mix and they politely replied that they could, so its possible to stick to one style
Something along these lines http://www.warhammer40.ru/_ph/4/811641590.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-poyFFk7QvZU/Vlil-1oN4FI/AAAAAAAAIkw/S50bxDjlXEE/s1600/Poster-Fallen-Angels.jpg

Thanks for the help

Templar101 wrote:
*Is it kosher to mix different Mk armoured squads in you're army?
As in a Mk II Tactical Squad, a Mk III devastator squad, MkIV Assault squad? Or do people try and stick to one Mk armour throughout their army?

*How about mixing armour types on the same individual model?
A tactical marine in Mk II torso with Mk III shoulder pads and Mk IV backpack?Not planning on this but not sure if its discouraged?
Is this a sign of Heresy in itself? Will the emperor dispatch his Inquisitor fashion police to my hippy free loving poncho wearing planet? :(

*I'm planning on adding a non GW/FW helmets to my dark angels and convert them with wings on each side, and also I was thinking of using these jump-packs on my assault squad. How do you think these would go down with rivet counters?
http://maxmini.eu/conversion-bits/head-swaps/steam-knights-heads-bits
http://maxmini.eu/conversion-bits/torsos-and-arms/silver-wing-jump-packs-bits

All that should be fluff-permissable. It's been repeatedly said that legion elements on extended crusade would be supplied at different times, and there are plenty of replacement parts, artificer armoured sections, idiosyncratic sorts of armour and 'special decoration' elements that are shown in various FW books.

Regarding different armour marks in the same army, I imagine squads may be combined, reassigned, assigned to different task forces as appropriate. Maybe sometimes an entire chapter might have their armour upgraded to MK4 at once. Maybe sometimes the tech marines only had enough suits of MK4 to replace damaged suits. Maybe the guys in the MK2 refused upgrade because of some honour associated with their 'relic' armour. All of this is possible.

I've got a MK4 White Scar army awaiting assembly, but I've just ordered some MK3 shoulder pads and MK2 torsos to put on veterans and sergeants. The rivet-counters might say it's 'wrong', but I doubt FW or many other people would have a problem with this!

I'm using different Marks of armour depending on my units.

My unit leaders use the torso upgrade packs, and the remaining pieces of whatever Mk their unit is wearing. I am tempted to pick up a pack of the redone MkV and just discard the heads and torsos, and use everything else.

My tactical/support squads are all Calth MkIV with 3d printed shoulder pads and Chaos backpacks on the way (I don't want my dudes looking like everyone else's).

My breacher and volkite squads are in MkIII, to kind of emphasize the type of warfare they were designed for.

My headhunters use MkII legs and arms to go with their scaled torso pieces, representing the oldest and most elite soldiers.

If I used assault squads, I'd probably make them MkII as well.

Templar101 wrote:
*Is it kosher to mix different Mk armoured squads in you're army?
As in a Mk II Tactical Squad, a Mk III devastator squad, MkIV Assault squad? Or do people try and stick to one Mk armour throughout their army?

*How about mixing armour types on the same individual model?
A tactical marine in Mk II torso with Mk III shoulder pads and Mk IV backpack?Not planning on this but not sure if its discouraged?
Is this a sign of Heresy in itself? Will the emperor dispatch his Inquisitor fashion police to my hippy free loving poncho wearing planet? :(

*I'm planning on adding a non GW/FW helmets to my dark angels and convert them with wings on each side, and also I was thinking of using these jump-packs on my assault squad. How do you think these would go down with rivet counters?
http://maxmini.eu/conversion-bits/head-swaps/steam-knights-heads-bits
http://maxmini.eu/conversion-bits/torsos-and-arms/silver-wing-jump-packs-bits

I emailed the company asking if they could send a particular helmet style instead of random mix and they politely replied that they could, so its possible to stick to one style
Something along these lines http://www.warhammer40.ru/_ph/4/811641590.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-poyFFk7QvZU/Vlil-1oN4FI/AAAAAAAAIkw/S50bxDjlXEE/s1600/Poster-Fallen-Angels.jpg

Thanks for the help

It's totally kosher to have different squads in a force which use different mks of armour/helm/equipment, there is nothing against mixing and matching armour mks within the squads or on the individual - each alteration tells a story!
I think that can be a bad thing though - I take the view that they're a legion with hundreds of thousands of marines and that they should largely be faceless nobodies in a power-suit unless embellishment is afforded by rank and title.


I make these assumptions for my marines:
Loyalists tend to get the older equipment because horus preferentially supplied the traitor legions with the newest and best.
Full army armour continuity is as fluffy as you can get; which mk of armour you use determines how far back you can do 'historical' battles in the timeline.
Mixed armour mks for the units of an army is either optimising armour type for purpose (breachers in mk3 armour for example) or that multiple smaller forces have joined under a unifying command in the field.
Mix and matched armour mks within a squad is a sign of a post action regrouping strategy - they've been in the first wave and survived.
Mix and matched armour on an individual is a sign of an extended campaign with sporadic resupply, taking whatever can be used from the battlefield or supply crate at the time.


The official DA upgrade helms are more expensive but they actually look like the ones the marines in the artwork, the 3rd party ones just don't. sorry.

To be fair though dude, there is very little chance you'll meet someone in a pick-up game who will insist on complete historical accuracy and 99.999999% of people in that situation will barely notice them at all.
That said, if you even try to mount those jump packs on mk4 marines instead of mk2/3, you shall be shot mutiple times in the heart with a repeating stake-thrower for heretical decision-making.
Also: a mk4 backpack on a mk2 marine? you'll wish there was an inquisitor around to end it all if you show that off in public.

What do you guy's think of using the chapter upgrade from regular gw in HH. I yhink yhose will be a better way to get shoulder pads that FW

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
What do you guy's think of using the chapter upgrade from regular gw in HH. I yhink yhose will be a better way to get shoulder pads that FW

some of them certainly would fit well.

Mate of mine is using 40k models for all his night lord seargents, I think it's going to look pretty good once it's all finished

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
What do you guy's think of using the chapter upgrade from regular gw in HH. I yhink yhose will be a better way to get shoulder pads that FW

It depends on the Legion in question but a lot of them haven't changed their symbols that much.

Off the top of my head here...

Night Lords - there's already a precedent for the winged helmets (Sevetar) and they look like they've Mk Vs or modified rebreathers. The Legion symbol hasn't changed so those shoulder pads are fine. Even the power sword is fine since the arm looks to be Mk II (with the 'glove').

Iron Warriors - Mk II torsos and 4 of the 5 heads are serviceable MK II/Mk IIIs if you trim away the horns.

Shoulderpads - Pretty much serviceable across the board if you can get hold of them. Considering the Legion symbols didn't change that much. I'd say perhaps shy away from the Death Guard ones but everyone else is pretty much fine as there's not that much overt chaos imagery.


Loyallist wise....

The upgrade sprues are fine across the board, provided you use the appropriate bits or paint them appropriately.

Remember, the DA shoulders don't have the broken sword during the Heresy era so you might need to fill the crack in with GS.

With regards to the BA Death Company banding? Paint it black, treat it as campaign markings and you can probably get away with it.

I was thinking the ultramarine one mostly. I figured commanders would have mk7 heads

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I was thinking the ultramarine one mostly. I figured commanders would have mk7 heads

Not until the scouring, no. Ultras weren't even present for the Siege of Terra.

I'd say it's definitely worth picking up at least one the Ultramarines set if you play them, the shoulderpads are all perfectly serviceable (some will give you grief about the plainer pads rims being too thick, but Forge World themselves have abandoned using thin rims on MkIV), the power sword makes a good Paragon Blade and the combat blade is a nice addition or can be proxied as a power sword as well (I doubt the majority of marine players would even notice it wasn't), the champion helmet has nothing to distinguish it as MkVII rather than MkIV so that's fine. The torso however has the MkVIII armoured gut box so probably shouldn't be used in the Scouring either without a bit of greenstuff work. MkVII is fine for the Scouring though, they weren't as close as the Dark Angels and Space Wolves but the Ultras were still closing in at the end. Random factoid: (I'm annoyed they left this out of the Apocrypha book actually) Do you know why the post-Heresy Ultramarines 10th company has no heraldic colour even though the original Scout minis had trims? Because the original MkVII scheme was *intended* to be Heresy(Scouring) era and the Heresy era ORBAT at the time had only 9 companies not 10!

Thing is with Ultras, and Thousand Sons as well apparently, is they had their own patterns of Armour because they had access to their own Forge Worlds. I wouldn't be surprised if Ultramar contained several.

Consequently, any derivations, deviations, hesitations or repetitions are quite adequately explained away by the fact they're wearing a "local" variant of he most appropriate pattern.

In fact, as Mk VII was being manufactured on Mars in the Heresy area, even that can be explained by prototypes, test runs etc.,

Given that the fluff didn't exist in anything like the depth it does until a handful of years ago, and they're literally still making it up, there's more than enough holes to fit the presence of Mk VII, or something that looks very much like it, into a Heresy era army and keep all but the most rabid of fluff bunnies happy.

I wouldn't put Mk. Chestplates and or even Mk. 7 style helmets on my Legionnaires personally. That Mk.IV faceplate variant seems to have been a traitor thing like the CSM backpacks. Vambraces and Legplates seem to be okay but very limited in use. But that's just me being anal retentive haha. While it's true future lore may validate Mk. 7 as a viable armor mark it can also invalidate it. So, apply it at your own risk!

I honestly feel that onces your on the table, the miniature is so far away, that your opponent really wont care. this is especially true IMO with commanders. Like Im thinking of making a cool commander for Tormentor to be in that involces several MK7 armor pieces to get the look I want.
If your opponent is so anal, their not the kind of people you want to play anyway.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I honestly feel that onces your on the table, the miniature is so far away, that your opponent really wont care. this is especially true IMO with commanders. Like Im thinking of making a cool commander for Tormentor to be in that involces several MK7 armor pieces to get the look I want.
If your opponent is so anal, their not the kind of people you want to play anyway.

I generally agree. I am generally permissive of 40k minis in 30k, but I think people have a right to impose expectations. For a lot of 30k players it isn't just about playing 30k it's about experiencing the setting. They have put a lot of effort into having that experience and have placed a premium on it. A non-30k army can detract from their fun as much as cheesy army can detract from a casual 40k players fun. Your value priorities maybe different, but that doesn't make others "anal." Some people invest the price of a vacation into their army and like a vacation there are many things that can spoil the anticipation. Understand and appreciate if you want to work towards having fun together. People are talking about opposition to BAC minis, but that seems to be a discussionary fiction that is perpetuating a level of elitism that is frankly too rare to be worth discussing.

Not everyone can afford the premiums of GW let alone FW models; but at the end of the day what matters is the effort people put into their models. Mk7 is mentioned as having been used at the siege of Terra, so it exists during the heresy even if in a limited capacity. Use it and remind people. Late Heresy era Mk7 however shouldn't have all the honors and "bling" of 40k era armor. I don't think it's much to ask to scrape some things off to make it setting appropriate. There is also a more regimented look to 30k so a squad of Mk7 armor should be more uniform than the 40k versions.

The great majority of players will accept anything that has a level of effort. People don't want to see laziness in their opponents' army as they want an opponent who cares as much as they do. So in that same way that I think the "anal" elite is a discussionary fiction, I also think the person who is so unwilling and is lazy is as well, but let's be honest both are easy to imagine even if we never personally encounter it.

 aka_mythos wrote:


I generally agree. I am generally permissive of 40k minis in 30k, but I think people have a right to impose[b] expectations. For a lot of 30k players it isn't just about playing 30k it's about experiencing the setting. They have put a lot of effort into having that experience and have placed a premium on it.

I'm going to have to respectfully take issue here. You can't impose your expectations on another person (apart from following the rules properly, and maybe wsyiwyg), the best you can do is hope that people meet your expectations, and not play them if they fall too short. Your comments about setting are true for all the games gw and many others make, I don't think a stray aquila should detract from this any more than a poorly painted army would, but very few people would berate an opponent for that (thankfully). I place a huge premium on my time, as I have so little to spare, but I still spend hours on each model to make them look good. If someone suggested that my effort wasn't good enough for their expectations, they'd be finding a new opponent, in a big room that would have just heard what a they were. (edit which might make it hard for both of us to get another game )

Maybe impose is too strong a choice of word. 40k and 30k despite being an adversarial game, the nature of it insists on a cooperation between two or more players for it to be fun. Whatever it is that makes it fun you have to insist upon or else it doesn't happen and the individual game is effectively a failure. What is "fun" can change game-to-game, it isn't immutable. If you feel some aspect of a game is going to ruin your fun the responsibile thing is to decline the game because your lack of enjoyment impacts the other player's experience. It's better to waste or ruin 5 minutes deciding a type of gaming experience isn't for you than to waste 3 hours.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I honestly feel that onces your on the table, the miniature is so far away, that your opponent really wont care. this is especially true IMO with commanders. Like Im thinking of making a cool commander for Tormentor to be in that involces several MK7 armor pieces to get the look I want.
If your opponent is so anal, their not the kind of people you want to play anyway.

I would be more disappointed to see you used a bunch of mk7 parts, instead of taking the effort to limit yourself to MK4-6 parts. It's restricting yourself in how you can model your characters, that makes the characters so cool in 30k. If you made a "cool" looking character, then it's just even more disappointing you put a bunch of effort into making a cool 40k commander, instead of a 30k commander. Your not using your effort effectively.

The MK7 head in the ultra upgrade pack isn't even that fancy. FW and GW have made plenty of MK 2-4 helmets with plumes like that. I don't get what makes that MK7 helmet special. You get multiple MK4 helmets with plumes like that in Betrayal at Calth. The only bits in the ultra upgrade pack that is not 30k correct is the chest piece and two helmets, so I don't get why you feel like you need to use them. Even if it's that specific plume you want, why not just cut it off and glue it to a plastic MK4 helmet?

It's such a easy conversion, I don't get why you wouldn't just do it. Instead of having to make a bunch of excuses about local armour patterns, or how your commander was the one ultra marine at the siege of terra so was able to get a MK7 helmet for himself.

But your probably going to call me being anal for saying that.

Cause I want to? why should you care how I convert MY models?

Well, for many folks 30K is somewhat of a historical re-enactment game (fake history, but still), so adherence to background is highly valued. Anachronistic models and color schemes of your favorite football team break immersion for these people, so you can't really be mad at them if they choose not to play you. No one is stopping you from doing what you want, but you can't force people to play you either.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Cause I want to? why should you care how I convert MY models?

Because it comes across as that you don't care about the lore, you just want to use legion rules.

The thing that has bugged me the most about 30k becoming mainstream is bassicly flavour of the week marien players, wanting to use their 40k marines in 30k. They then play 30k for a month or so, then realize the 40k rules are better/stronger and go back to using the better rule book.

Every time I seen a player useing MK7 marines in 30k, this has been their MO. I would rather see people playing 30k because they love the lore, not because they love Flare Shielded Land Raider Spartans.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Cause I want to? why should you care how I convert MY models?

Because some people play 30k for the setting and would rather their opponents do the same. Also, why ask what people think of using 40k parts on your models if you just going to actively disregard people's opinions or even get defensive about it?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Cause I want to? why should you care how I convert MY models?

Because some people play 30k for the setting and would rather their opponents do the same. Also, why ask what people think of using 40k parts on your models if you just going to actively disregard people's opinions or even get defensive about it?

Because he's still angry a month ago I told his friend plastic Cadians with Empire state trooper Heads don't equal +3Sv Abhuman Milita, and that maby he should come up with a better way to represent these upgrades.

His friend even went as far as saying that he quits 30k before even starting it because of what I said, and that people will not let him model his army how he wants to. A 3rd friend even joined dakka that day to argue with me.

It seems this is just how his whole group plays 30k, and for some reason they feel they need to get validation from the greater online 30k community that they are "playing correctly". I suspect that they have had issues when trying to play with the larger 30k community in their area, of people bassicly telling them what some people are saying now. They then get upset that people online are not validating their choices.

Their is no other explanation for why him and his friends keep coming on here asking people for thier opinions, and then getting angry when people disagree with them.

Edit:
I hate to do call out posts, but there is a pattern here that is repeating in regards to him.

...

Is there no decency in this world?

Even Erebus is shaking his head like, "Damn, that's wrong, dawg."

Erebus... Now that's funny!

Another consideration which shouldn't be overlooked is aesthetic preferences. Money matters aside, some folks just don't like the look of certain models or armour marks. I count myself in there. Some of the HH armour is very baroque, and while that's fine in its own right, it's not for everyone...comparing a MK3 marine and a Cataphracti pattern terminator to a fire raptor or Sicaran and I just say "nah, doesn't fit." Lads running around in tabards and roman legionary-esque armour next to cutting edge death machine...I find it a bit jarring and silly tbh. I might be going against the grain there but ah well...

I like the lore, but I'm a modeller first. Don't feel compelled to buy models I'm not taken with (indeed it's half the reason I spend most of my time converting stuff). I'm sure there's a fair few other hobbyists that feel the same.

 Lockark wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Cause I want to? why should you care how I convert MY models?

Because some people play 30k for the setting and would rather their opponents do the same. Also, why ask what people think of using 40k parts on your models if you just going to actively disregard people's opinions or even get defensive about it?

Because he's still angry a month ago I told his friend plastic Cadians with Empire state trooper Heads don't equal +3Sv Abhuman Milita, and that maby he should come up with a better way to represent these upgrades.

His friend even went as far as saying that he quits 30k before even starting it because of what I said, and that people will not let him model his army how he wants to. A 3rd friend even joined dakka that day to argue with me.

It seems this is just how his whole group plays 30k, and for some reason they feel they need to get validation from the greater online 30k community that they are "playing correctly". I suspect that they have had issues when trying to play with the larger 30k community in their area, of people bassicly telling them what some people are saying now. They then get upset that people online are not validating their choices.

Their is no other explanation for why him and his friends keep coming on here asking people for thier opinions, and then getting angry when people disagree with them.

Edit:
I hate to do call out posts, but there is a pattern here that is repeating in regards to him.

True to a point, but you fail to mention that your entire argument ignored the fact that 3+ saves vary greatly across armies and races, and that the ONLY way to be abhuman is to not be a human. If you're gonna call him out for his crummy attitude, DON'T leave out the fact that you were being pretty impolite and tunnel-vissioned on the topic you brought up. Not justifying the act of asking for opinions and then getting defensive, but if you're gonna try and call someone out, give the whole story.

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Another consideration which shouldn't be overlooked is aesthetic preferences. Money matters aside, some folks just don't like the look of certain models or armour marks. I count myself in there. Some of the HH armour is very baroque, and while that's fine in its own right, it's not for everyone...comparing a MK3 marine and a Cataphracti pattern terminator to a fire raptor or Sicaran and I just say "nah, doesn't fit." Lads running around in tabards and roman legionary-esque armour next to cutting edge death machine...I find it a bit jarring and silly tbh. I might be going against the grain there but ah well...

I like the lore, but I'm a modeller first. Don't feel compelled to buy models I'm not taken with (indeed it's half the reason I spend most of my time converting stuff). I'm sure there's a fair few other hobbyists that feel the same.

Thats kinda how I feel sometimes. Most of the heads for the MKs dont always suit me. and there seems to be not a whole lot in unique bits. while If I look at 40k marines, it gives me so many modeling options.
Like for example, for my idea for a tormentor conversion I got this. MK4 legs. Special IW torsos, A Hand resting on his sword(from the sternguard kit) hand fiddling with a console and some head im not sure of. and a servo arm backpack to represent a warsmith. Its creates a unique model. And honestly if that person is so anal to worry about what bits I put on my model because it doesnt fit the "Fluff" it sounds like they might have a superiority complex.